End automatic citizenship for Irish Born children

Robert Wolfe · 04-02-2019 08:29PM

Arghus wrote: »

I don't really care what other countries in Europe do to be honest.

The only reason we had birthright citizenship was so people from the North would not be excluded from citizenship in the Republic, not so that Africans could come here to live on the dole.

80% of the population voted to abolish it. Foreigners who really want irish citizenship can still get it, through naturalisation.

Guy:Incognito · 04-02-2019 08:29PM

Arghus wrote: »

I don't really care what other countries in Europe do to be honest.

So give reasons why it should be the way you want then.

Yurt2 · 04-02-2019 08:32PM

There is only one article about this (see link), but word has it that the mother of the child in Bray illegally obtained an Irish passport for him. If it's true(and it hasn't been refuted in any other media outlet), then I have very little sympathy for the point of view that the mother should be allowed to stay in the country. Very sad for the child, but she's the one playing fast and loose with the law - and passport fraud should be taken extremely seriously. I can't think of a country that wouldn't come down hard on an individual undermining the integrity of the national passport.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bray-schoolboy-fighting-deportation-to-china-had-fraudulent-irish-passport-2lxd8kl20

Arghus · 04-02-2019 08:35PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So give reasons why it should be the way you want then.

If you were born here, you've "earned" it. You've got to be a citizen of somewhere and I'd rather live in a state that treated every newborn born here equally and with fairness and at least aspired to that basic level of equality for all.

Robert Wolfe · 04-02-2019 08:42PM

Arghus wrote: »

If you were born here, you've "earned" it. You've got to be a citizen of somewhere and I'd rather live in a state that treated every newborn born here equally and with fairness and at least aspired to that basic level of equality for all.

Bleeding heart rubbish.

RobbingBandit · 04-02-2019 08:49PM

Wouldn't grant citizenship to anybody other that it being symbolic no rights to be giving access to services and other rights without looking after native Irish we are and have been for far too long being taken advantage the land of 100,000 welcomes I think we have by and far exceeded that a very long time ago. Try being a sick irish adult living alone and needing help or access to social services I've never had so much difficulty in my life and I've been homeless. No more helping the rest of the world look after our own.

Arghus · 04-02-2019 08:52PM

Robert Wolfe wrote: »

Bleeding heart rubbish.

100% - but I still believe it.

Yurt2 · 04-02-2019 09:21PM

It has become something of an article of faith for those on the political left that all immigration, no matter what its character,is 'good'. This despite the fact that mass low-skilled labour results in downward pressure on wages for those in the lower social economic strata. No economist would seriously dispute this. Yes, headline GDP may go up a per cent or so, but there are serious ramifications for wages, social services, access to housing, pressure on the health system, education system etc.

The 'gain' in GDP with this type of immigration is overwhelmingly eaten up by subway franchise owners, cleaning companies, multinational retail outlets, landlords and so on. The ordinary worker doesn't see the benefits for the most part, and in many ways, they lose out.

There was a rather curious report from IBEC from I think last year, where they made the argument that the 30k salary requirement for non-EEA nationals to get a work permit was 'too high'. I nearly spat out my cornflakes when I read it. Fact is, business interests, want to import an underclass and pay them undignified wages to prop up ailing and unproductive businesses. The state and middle earning taxpayers can mop up any problems that ensue. And strangely, the political left is doing the agitating and lobbying for them. Go figure.

The refusal of the modern left to look the working classes and the coping classes in the eye over the past couple of decades has been their major failing. And they wonder why populists are on the rise across the developed world.

Auguste Comte · 05-02-2019 12:43AM

Yurt! wrote: »

It has become something of an article of faith for those on the political left that all immigration, no matter what its character,is 'good'.

Can you quote a couple of posts that back up this assertion that "the left" think all immigration, no matter what its character,is 'good'?

Stephen15 · 05-02-2019 12:52AM

Ireland and Europe as a whole needs an Australian style immigration system. If we had one we wouldn't have this problem as migrants wouldn't come here in the first place to give birth.

4068ac1elhodqr · 05-02-2019 02:29AM

Yurt! wrote: »

The 'gain' in GDP with this type of immigration is overwhelmingly eaten up by subway franchise owners, cleaning companies, multinational retail outlets, landlords and so on. The ordinary worker doesn't see the benefits for the most part, and in many ways, they lose out.

Also large coffee chains, who are tax-shy at best.

Economists also warn that all these 'low-skilled' roles will all become redundant anyway thanks to automation. upto 50% off all roles will simply vanish by 2030, the low-skilled ones at highest risk.

RiderOnTheStorm · 05-02-2019 11:00AM

If you are born in a stable, it doesnt make you a horse.

mcmoustache · 05-02-2019 11:41AM

Arghus wrote: »

If you were born here, you've "earned" it. You've got to be a citizen of somewhere and I'd rather live in a state that treated every newborn born here equally and with fairness and at least aspired to that basic level of equality for all.

I appreciate your position but granting citizenship at birth creates an incentive to have an anchor baby since you can't realistically be deported if your child is Irish. Not only that, but when our country is one of the few that do this, it encourages immigrants and refugees to select Ireland over other countries. That's the reason that the law was changed in the first place.

05-02-2019 11:58AM

Arghus wrote: »

I don't really care what other countries in Europe do to be honest.

Well off to the UK or whats left of it for you so,

Arghus wrote: »

If you were born here, you've "earned" it. You've got to be a citizen of somewhere and I'd rather live in a state that treated every newborn born here equally and with fairness and at least aspired to that basic level of equality for all.

earned it? how? this idea of popping a sprog out on Irish soil being like some kind of touchdown for the life lottery, where's the sense?

Anyway, as nice (pie in the sky) as those ideals of equality of yours are are, you're in the wrong country for treatment of equality for every newborn and all that fairness stuff, there are no doubt a lot of significant advantages being born here over the majority of other countries, but at what point is there when it might be too much, too far? maybe when the outcome of it land on your doorstep I think, might change your tune then.

I change my mind, its not the UK you need, I dont know when the next flight to Shangri la is,
Your view, as nice as it is, does not take account of reality and people will abuse a system that leaves itself open to be deceived or manipulated.

Danzy · 05-02-2019 12:01PM

McDowell's only redeeming act for. His time in Govt.

05-02-2019 12:03PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

Ireland and Europe as a whole needs an Australian style immigration system. If we had one we wouldn't have this problem as migrants wouldn't come here in the first place to give birth.

What problem so we have exactly?

CrankyHaus · 05-02-2019 12:16PM

80% of Irish voters supported this amendment. It's fascinating, though sinister, to see the PR campaign being waged upon it to soften up the populace for a reversal of its will.

For instance RTE Radio had a program on this topic before Christmas. It was incredibly one-sided and lazily made. It even included a direct falsehood, where the narrator described the subject as having lived in Ireland her whole life, moments after the subject herself described coming here and remaining illegally as a child.

Yurt2 · 05-02-2019 12:23PM

bubblypop wrote: »

What problem so we have exactly?

We have a problem of the left now agitating for the constitution to be changed off the back of a 'hard case' in Bray. What's being ignored is that the mother broke the law and committed passport fraud, and that's why she got her marching orders. Credit to the Times journalist for doing a bit of digging on this case.

The irony being, if she kept her head down and didn't go off the reservation trying to fool the system, she would have got Irish citizenship for herself and her son. It's been known for a while now in legal circles that as long as people don't come to the attention of the Gardai, after a period of time undocumented folks get naturalised on the quiet. It's known as 'the unofficial official policy' in the DOJ (or something to that effect).

The reintroduction of jus soli citizenship in Ireland would inevitably result in a marked increase in birth tourism and a scramble by developing world folks to get here by any means to secure an EU passport for their child and anchor themselves in Europe.

speedboatchase · 05-02-2019 12:27PM

It would take under current EU laws, at a minimum, five years for my non-EAA wife to become an Irish citizen. Yet 80% of people believe that those who aren't even legally in the state can create a legal Irish citizen?

Hotblack Desiato · 05-02-2019 12:36PM

Arghus wrote: »

If you were born here, you've "earned" it. You've got to be a citizen of somewhere and I'd rather live in a state that treated every newborn born here equally and with fairness and at least aspired to that basic level of equality for all.

You earn nothing by virtue of where you are born, it's nothing to do with you. If you're born on a plane should that put you top of the list for a pilot job 20 years later?

I took the ferry between here and the UK a good few times in the late 90s/early 00s, amazing the number of 7/8/9 months pregnant women on them - but only in the coming into Ireland direction. Odd that :rolleyes:

Our country was being played like a fiddle and we rightly put a stop to it. Of course the direct provision system is still full of absoloute pisstakers, but that's another story.

I agree with the slogan "End Direct Provision" however - rapid decisions and rapid deportations will soon put an end to it...

Hogzy · 05-02-2019 12:37PM

TheJournal.ie seems to be a bunch of social justice warriors self declaring themselves as journalists trying to stir up outrage over the most minor things. The amount of "articles" that are published using sources based off of what people have said on twitter is staggering. Its a glorified blog. The Daily Edge is even worse which touts itself as an entertainment news site but is essentially pushing extreme feminist content and expecting such ideology to be the norm.

Yurt2 · 05-02-2019 12:41PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

It would take under current EU laws, at a minimum, five years for my non-EAA wife to become an Irish citizen. Yet 80% of people believe that those who aren't even legally in the state can create a legal Irish citizen?

Not quite. Naturalisation and citizenship remains the competency of member states, and should remain so. In effect, if an individual has been in Ireland for 5 years (5 years of reckonable residency; legal residency) then the Minister will consider naturalisation. Even then, they are not entitled to naturalisation, it's strictly at the discretion of the Minister of Justice. So, if you have a criminal record, have been working in the black economy or otherwise are not of good character, the Minister can refuse naturalisation.

EDIT: I believe the time frame for non-EEA spouses is 3 years as opposed to 5 for those who aren't married to an Irish citizen

topper75 · 05-02-2019 04:28PM

Yurt! wrote: »

It has become something of an article of faith for those on the political left that all immigration, no matter what its character,is 'good'. This despite the fact that mass low-skilled labour results in downward pressure on wages for those in the lower social economic strata. No economist would seriously dispute this. Yes, headline GDP may go up a per cent or so, but there are serious ramifications for wages, social services, access to housing, pressure on the health system, education system etc.

The 'gain' in GDP with this type of immigration is overwhelmingly eaten up by subway franchise owners, cleaning companies, multinational retail outlets, landlords and so on. The ordinary worker doesn't see the benefits for the most part, and in many ways, they lose out.

There was a rather curious report from IBEC from I think last year, where they made the argument that the 30k salary requirement for non-EEA nationals to get a work permit was 'too high'. I nearly spat out my cornflakes when I read it. Fact is, business interests, want to import an underclass and pay them undignified wages to prop up ailing and unproductive businesses. The state and middle earning taxpayers can mop up any problems that ensue. And strangely, the political left is doing the agitating and lobbying for them. Go figure.

The refusal of the modern left to look the working classes and the coping classes in the eye over the past couple of decades has been their major failing. And they wonder why populists are on the rise across the developed world.

Superb analysis.

Irish politics is in the most shambolic state since 1921.

You have a fractious left that seeks to serve all interests other than that of workers.

You have two large mé féin centrists who shadow box on talk radio but really conspire to prevent anyone breaking their stranglehold. Just lately we have FF failing to move against FG regarding the new hospital cost to taxpayers... because Brexit apparently. The hospital is to cost 4 London Shards for Christ's sake. Politics has failed the Irish worker big time in 2019.

Arghus · 05-02-2019 04:53PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You earn nothing by virtue of where you are born, it's nothing to do with you. If you're born on a plane should that put you top of the list for a pilot job 20 years later?

That's the most nonsensical analogy I've read in a long time. You would have been better off using "a seat on the plane" instead. At least that would have made a bit more sense in the context.

I understand the whole anchor babies argument - and I'm not naive enough to think it isn't a real thing; Of course it is. I can even see why people feel it's right. I respect the argument, but I don't personally believe in it.

But the way I look at it is - I was automatically a citizen when I was born. Even though how and where I was born had nothing to do with me. What was good enough for me should be good enough for others too. I feel it's morally right.

Yurt2 · 05-02-2019 05:29PM

Arghus wrote: »

That's the most nonsensical analogy I've read in a long time. You would have been better off using "a seat on the plane" instead. At least that would have made a bit more sense in the context.

I understand the whole anchor babies argument - and I'm not naive enough to think it isn't a real thing; Of course it is. I can even see why people feel it's right. I respect the argument, but I don't personally believe in it.

But the way I look at it is - I was automatically a citizen when I was born. Even though how and where I was born had nothing to do with me. What was good enough for me should be good enough for others too. I feel it's morally right.

I have a question for you, and this isn't a 'gotcha' question, just trying to understand your stance: Under what circumstances do you deem deportation orders appropriate?

-overstayers?
- those working in the black economy for years?
- criminals (from fraud to assault, take your pick)?
- none or all of the above?

And if the state doesn't enforce its own policies, what do you think the outcome would be? What's the appropriate level of immigration to your mind?

For the record, I'm in favour of an Australian points style system. Honest immigrants know what's required of them, it protects the local labour market and it's transparent enough for the wider public to have confidence in it - which eliminates much (though not all) anti-immigrant sentiment. The Aussies are also adept at weeding out pisstakers.

Our system has none of the above, it's too hard and cumbersome for genuine talented immigrants and it rewards pisstakers and overstayers - and if we're honest, Irish people probably have little confidence in our system.

The difficulty with reinstating jus soli is that it would make the Irish immigration system a pisstakers charter.

mcmoustache · 05-02-2019 05:39PM

Arghus wrote: »

But the way I look at it is - I was automatically a citizen when I was born. Even though how and where I was born had nothing to do with me. What was good enough for me should be good enough for others too. I feel it's morally right.

That's a fair point. Neither you nor a child born of foreign parents did anything different when you were born here. Neither of you earned made some decision that makes either of you more deserving of Irish citizenship than the other.

But the rights of a child can't easily be separated from the rights of its parents. If I was born to different parents in a different country, I would inherit the rights and privileges that my parents had arranged for me. They could be a rich middle-class couple in Switzerland or a poor couple in Sudan. Despite being born out of the same sort of orifice, both of those options would bestow upon me a completely different set of rights and privileges depending on which set of parents made me.

It's not fair, certainly but parents have a right to raise a child to the best of their ability and pass on whatever rights and privileges they have. Among those is their citizenship. I can't pass on Swiss citizenship to my kids because anymore than I can pass on a billion euro trust fund. I have neither.

Now, back to rights and wrongs of anchor babies. The rights and privileges of a child and their parents are absolutely linked. in these cases, the parents don't have any right to make an Irish baby any more than they can make a billionaire baby. I can make an Irish baby with my partner but I can't make a Swiss one.

It's not particularly fair on the baby but babies are ultimately at the mercy of the situation that their parents find themselves in.

donegal_man · 05-02-2019 05:46PM

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

If you are born in a stable, it doesnt make you a horse.

Good news for Jesus

topper75 · 05-02-2019 05:55PM

donegal_man wrote: »

Good news for Jesus

In fairness, they weren't pisstakers. Back to Mary's place in Nazareth was where he was raised.

Little detour in Egypt alright, genuine asylum from the brutal Herod regime. Again, no buggies left at bus stops, they went back home when they could.

Straight up honest decent types.

Stephen15 · 05-02-2019 06:00PM

bubblypop wrote: »

What problem so we have exactly?

Anchor babies. Trust me immigration will be a major issue ten to twenty years.

Arghus · 05-02-2019 06:01PM

Yurt! wrote: »

I have a question for you, and this isn't a 'gotcha' question, just trying to understand your stance: Under what circumstances do you deem deportation orders appropriate?

-overstayers?
- those working in the black economy for years?
- criminals (from fraud to assault, take your pick)?

And if the state doesn't enforce its own policies, what do you think the outcome would be? What's the appropriate level of immigration to your mind?

For the record, I'm in favour of an Australian points style system. Honest immigrants know what's required of them, it protects the local labour market and it's transparent enough for the wider public to have confidence in it - which eliminates much (though not all) anti-immigrant sentiment. The Aussies are also adept at weeding out pisstakers.

Our system has none of the above, it's too hard and cumbersome for genuine talented immigrants and it rewards pisstakers and overstayers - and if we're honest, Irish people probably have little confidence in our system.

The difficulty with reinstating jus soli is that it would make the Irish immigration system a pisstakers charter.

There's loads of circumstances where I would deem deportation orders to be valid/appropriate - you've mentioned a few examples there which I couldn't quibble with in most circumstances.

The difficulty in talking about this subject is that when you say one thing or hold one position, everyone on the other side of the argument fills in the blanks for themselves and starts assuming that you hold all the positions that they expect you to have, because you disagree. Of course, there's plenty of nuance on their side of the argument....

For instance I'd imagine that most of the names that I've been arguing with here - at the risk of playing the part that I'm complaining about - probably think that I'm in favour of mass immigration, which I'm not, and view deportations and such to be always morally unjustifiable - not at all, as I've already stated.

I also can understand the anchor baby argument. I'm also aware that automatic citizenship by birth - which is still awarded if you don't qualify for citizenship elsewhere - would make us unusual amongst most countries. But, I think that's their business - and they are wrong too, if you're asking me.

I just feel that if I was deemed Irish at birth, then that right should be afforded to others - and there shouldn't be asterisks of acceptability beside some other innocent newborns over others.

It's a very basic and fundamental thing, but it means a lot - and it was good enough for the state for most of its existence up until relatively recently. Of course I know in practice that raises numerous questions about the reality of the situation regarding the residency of parents and what's going to happen regarding all those potential problems - a circle to be squared I guess.

I won't pretend to have all the answers. I know that's against the rules of the internet - where everyone has it all figured out and only enters arguments to tell the other side how wrong they are. But, we as a nation are fond of "claiming" people when it means absolutely nothing, but, in this circumstance, show ourselves to be hypocritical fckers.

End automatic citizenship for Irish Born children

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