Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

30-01-2019 07:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Meh. You get more days off. I used to shift work as a rotational pharmacist. It was nice having days off and the pay enhancements weren't bad either.

What pay enhancements?

30-01-2019 07:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What pay enhancements?

Working nights, weekends bank holidays etc.

Tell me how · 30-01-2019 07:05PM

bri007 wrote: »

Leo and Harris should use the 14.3 billion euro tax take from Apple and put it into the health service, starting with building the children’s hospital as planned and employ more frontline staff ie nursing etc.

The Health budget is already €17B. More than double what it was 17 years ago. We cannot keep throwing more and more money in to something without objective analysis.

A public sector commission investigated pay scales within the nursing profession as part of a broad assessment of the level of satisfaction within the industry. It found that the primary source of discomfort was not the level of pay.

If Nurses were striking today for changes which they had proposed which would result in fairer pay distribution towards those on the wards and better working environment for nurses and treatment environment for patients I would have brought them a flask of coffee. But they aren't, they are striking for an across the board 12% pay increase which I do not agree with.

baldshin · 30-01-2019 07:06PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If they’ve funded their own education, then they are free to go wherever they want. However, if their qualifications were state funded via a grant, then they should be obliged to work in the NHS for a minimum of 3 years.

The 13 hour day seriously needs looking at. It’s ridiculous to expect anyone to work such hours in such a vital job.

13 hours? My fiancée is a specialist registrar who often has worked 36 hour shifts with maybe 30 minutes for sleep/food/drink/toilet. It's so dangerous and the public are very unaware of this.

yabadabado · 30-01-2019 07:07PM

bri007 wrote: »

Leo and Harris should use the 14.3 billion euro tax take from Apple and put it into the health service, starting with building the children’s hospital as planned and employ more frontline staff ie nursing etc.

The HSE already squanders massive money no point giving them billions more.

The HSE needs to be rebuilt from top to bottom. So much money wasted that could be used on frontline staff.

iamwhoiam · 30-01-2019 07:09PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If they’ve funded their own education, then they are free to go wherever they want. However, if their qualifications were state funded via a grant, then they should be obliged to work in the NHS for a minimum of 3 years.

The 13 hour day seriously needs looking at. It’s ridiculous to expect anyone to work such hours in such a vital job.

I agree with both points but If nurses who got grants should work it back then it must also mean that anyone who recieved a grant should work it back

. I worked in Germany and we had 8 hourly shifts and it was much more manageable . It does need more nurses on the roster but might attract more nurses
Many nurses with children prefer long shifts and days off .

political analyst · 30-01-2019 07:13PM

As I've asked in another thread here a few days ago, is there really no alternative to a "one size fits all" public-sector pay agreement?

What is good enough for a civil servant isn't necessarily good enough for a nurse because of the nature of the work.

If junior civil servants were asked if emergency services workers' pay should be considered a special case, they'd probably say Yes and then they could tell the leadership of their union that they don't want to make a pay claim to compete.

brendanwalsh · 30-01-2019 07:21PM

baldshin wrote: »

13 hours? My fiancée is a specialist registrar who often has worked 36 hour shifts with maybe 30 minutes for sleep/food/drink/toilet. It's so dangerous and the public are very unaware of this.

Doctors are the devil in the eye of Joe public, all that money and 'private rooms' ffs

30-01-2019 07:23PM

wrangler wrote: »

Doesn't matter if you work hard when you only have to do it for 38hrs/wk, There's 168hrs in a week, not exactly strangled are they.........is it four or six weeks off they get as well.
Plenty work a lot harder and a lot more hours for a lot less

Plenty couldn't do my job. If my pharmacist pay is so great, why don't you go study pharmacy and you can be on the gravy train in 5 years?

thomasdylan · 30-01-2019 07:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

As an aside, the HSE is in ****ing disarray. So many patients die that wouldn't die in an NHS hospital. Drug companies offer trips (Barbados, wherever) disguised as conferences to consultants and pharmacists. There is no control of medication budgets in any Irish hospital. There isn't even a national sepsis policy for God sake.

The sepsis comment is completely wrong. Every Irish hospital uses the same Early Warning Score to identify sepsis. The 'sepsis six' shouldn't replace clinical judgement anyway.

The Hound Gone Wild · 30-01-2019 07:28PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I suppose the good thing is if the nurses get their rise. I will expect something similar for hospital pharmacists in the next 12 months.

The difference in pay for entry level pharmacist's in the public and private sector is incredible. €33,000 in Public compared to €50-60,000 in private. It's no wonder we have dangerously few Pharmacists in hospitals

Wheeliebin30 · 30-01-2019 07:32PM

One has to wonder if the government know the public are backing the nurses why they don’t just give them the money?

That’s a real vote getter, be popular and get votes.

But they’re not giving in in the face of huge criticism.

Why would they do that knowing they will loose many votes?

EdgeCase · 30-01-2019 07:34PM

The conditions and staffing levels seem to be more of a problem than anything else from what I've seen and heard of hospitals. They're working nurses and also hospital doctors (non consultants) way beyond what's reasonable and their jobs and career paths just seem woefully badly structured.

30-01-2019 07:34PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

One has to wonder if the government know the public are backing the nurses why they don’t just give them the money?

That’s a real vote getter, be popular and get votes.

But they’re not giving in in the face of huge criticism.

Why would they do that knowing they will loose many votes?

I’m not sure that the public is backing the nurses as much as they want us to believe.

30-01-2019 07:34PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

The sepsis comment is completely wrong. Every Irish hospital uses the same Early Warning Score to identify sepsis. The 'sepsis six' shouldn't replace clinical judgement anyway.

I'm aware of the EWS but not any policy about appropriate antbiotics to give. We give out meropenem like sweets. Also, nephrotoxic meds been continued etc. It's just a bit of a mess which doesn't happen in the NHS.

4ensic15 · 30-01-2019 07:36PM

political analyst wrote: »

As I've asked in another thread here a few days ago, is there really no alternative to a "one size fits all" public-sector pay agreement?

What is good enough for a civil servant isn't necessarily good enough for a nurse because of the nature of the work.

If junior civil servants were asked if emergency services workers' pay should be considered a special case, they'd probably say Yes and then they could tell the leadership of their union that they don't want to make a pay claim to compete.

The whole public service works on the basis of relativity. There are approximately 1,000 grades and the relativities were established decades ago. Some grades in the Civil Service are regarded as pivotal grades. Everyone else is scaled off them. To get a pay rise under the relativity system the union has to show that some other related grade has been increased eg a lower paid grade has got an increase bringing them closer or a higher paid grade has got an increase moving them further away. The only other way is to show that some new higher quality work is being undertaken. One of the problems nurses have is that the relativities were laid down, it only needed a pass inter cert to get into nursing and most nurses retired on marriage. Women generally were paid less than men. Professional civil service grades such as accountants, architects and solicitors are related to much higher civil service grades than nurses even though educationally nurses are now on a par or above those occupations educationally.

Johnnyhpipe · 30-01-2019 07:37PM

If we can’t even afford to pay our nurses, has anyone got any idea how we are going to staff and run the world’s most expensive hospital???

Has this question been answered anywhere??

30-01-2019 07:37PM

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

The difference in pay for entry level pharmacist's in the public and private sector is incredible. €33,000 in Public compared to €50-60,000 in private. It's no wonder we have dangerously few Pharmacists in hospitals

To be fair, pharmacists are underutilised, at the moment employing more pharmacists wouldn't help in any significant way. Better use of the money would be to fund that all GPs keep immediately accessible electronic records that can be accessed through the use of a smart card.

Sadly, I don't get to make as much of an intervention as I could in the NHS.

4ensic15 · 30-01-2019 07:37PM

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

If we can’t even afford to pay our nurses, has anyone got any idea how we are going to staff and run the world’s most expensive hospital???

Has this question been answered anywhere??

Build and they will come?

TrixIrl · 30-01-2019 07:45PM

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

If we can’t even afford to pay our nurses, has anyone got any idea how we are going to staff and run the world’s most expensive hospital???

Has this question been answered anywhere??

Temple street, crumlin and Tallaght Paeds will be amalgamated to the greater extent so if anything efficencies should be easier come by. Some staff will be retained for satellite clinics etc but I can’t see a huge issue here.

Also at present, many of the newly qualified direct entry paeds nurses have completed a dual adult and child course so have their pick of working in almost any hospital and often head to the svph/blackrock/hermitages of this world as they’re nicer more modern buildings. The new children’s hospital, if it ever gets built!, will be well able to compete and should have the same pull as GOSH in London where we loose a lot of our paeds nurses to as they want to experience all specialities which they’ll now be able to do under one roof in the new children’s hospital.

James Brown · 30-01-2019 07:52PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

They are going elsewhere . We are loosing nurses daily to UK , Australia , Dubai and Canada .
And the queues of foreign nurses has slowed down now as they look to Dubai and Australia too

Because we pay the Nurses too much obviously

You'd have to wonder.
They'd rather fund hotels, B&B's and private rentals than finance affordable or social housing and they'll merrily see health spends on agency staff over Nurses. ****ty management or something else?

TrixIrl · 30-01-2019 07:54PM

It’s been mentioned a few times about the spend on agency nurses. Totally agree that the nurses should be hired in-house and increase numbers. From experience tho, many nurses choose to stay as agency because they can pick their own hours, decide never to work another Christmas Day if they don’t want to, not “have” to pay into pension and PRD etc, move wards/hospitals as suits them, work around childcare etc.

After the hse recruitment embargo was lifted, 99% of new agency nurses were those who had previously been HSE and still wanted to work in HSE hospitals but had been turned down in their requests to reduce hours, move closer to home, look for flexibility or move to a 9-5 for a better work life balance. Often times we’d see a nurse leave a hospital on a Friday and return to same ward on the following Monday but now with the discretion to choose their own working hours. Unless the HSE fully commit to their own policies on family friendly flexible working (and not just for admin staff) this haemorrhaging will just keep happening.

Miike · 30-01-2019 07:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m not sure that the public is backing the nurses as much as they want us to believe.

Judging the from the support on the pickets today, I'd argue that you're wrong. People from local communities even joined the pickets to show support and solidarity. All that nurses are asking to be paid the same as other healthcare professionals who work less hours and have 20% of the caseload of a nurse. Also other allied healthcare professionals aren't required to do specialist post grads or MSc's to have any opportunity to move up or even laterally with their career. Nurses would have around 7ish years done in University to get the same rate of a pay as a 3 year degree OT graduate.

Everyone who's never worked a day on the ward will posit that conditions are fine, pay is fine, there isn't a recruitment or retention problem and that the average pay is 50 odd thousand a year. Ofcourse, that's those who are blindly ignorant to where the average of that pay goes - There are more managers for nurses than nurses on the wards at this stage. Nurses are redeployed daily because of staff shortages in units across the board in Mental Health, General, ID and Midwifery.

Graduate retention rates are sub 20% over 24 months post reg in some parts of the country.

iamwhoiam · 30-01-2019 08:03PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Because we pay the Nurses too much obviously

I think its a vicious circle , nurses are overworked and stressed and leave for Australia etc . The ones left behind are working on understaffed wards and get stressed and ill . Having seen Tallaght A and E a few times first hand it is actually astonishing that they have any staff at all working there . The conditions are horrendous and so incredibly stressful

I took early retirement from a very busy paeds hospital because of bad staffing levels and patients safety at risk with agency nurses filling gaps . Imagine a busy surgical ward with just one staff nurse and agency nurses who are not familiar with the level of care ? Early retirement with a huge drop in salary was my only option for my own health and well being
More money would only have helped if it recruited more staff and eased the huge burden of responsibility .

Tell me how · 30-01-2019 08:04PM

Miike wrote: »

Judging the from the support on the pickets today, I'd argue that you're wrong. People from local communities even joined the pickets to show support and solidarity. All that nurses are asking to be paid the same as other healthcare professionals who work less hours and have 20% of the caseload of a nurse.

Everyone who's never worked a day on the ward will posit that conditions are fine, pay is fine, there isn't a recruitment or retention problem and that the average pay is 50 odd thousand a year. Ofcourse, that's those who are blindly ignorant to where the average of that pay goes - There are more managers for nurses than nurses on the wards at this stage. Nurses are redeployed daily because of staff shortages in units across the board in Mental Health, General, ID and Midwifery.

Graduate retention rates are sub 20% over 24 months post reg in some parts of the country.

I would support them if they acknowledged this imbalance and were making suggestions on how correct it (reduce numbers in managerial roles) rather than looking for the 12% which will apply across the board to the same management staff as ward nurses.

Asking that this be paid while suggesting it is a problem is not going to make things better. It's painting over the cracks.

Miike · 30-01-2019 08:06PM

Tell me how wrote: »

I would support them if they acknowledged this imbalance and were making suggestions on how correct it (reduce numbers in managerial roles) rather than looking for the 12% which will apply across the board to the same management staff as ward nurses.

Asking that this be paid while suggesting it is a problem is not going to make things better. It's painting over the cracks.

I don't disagree however this still would't fill the gap between the other healthcare professionals.

Tell me how · 30-01-2019 08:06PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I think its a vicious circle , nurses are overworked and stressed and leave for Australia etc . The ones left behind are working on understaffed wards and get stressed and ill . Having seen Tallaght A and E a few times first hand it is actually astonishing that they have any staff at all working there . The conditions are horrendous and so incredibly stressful

I took early retirement from a very busy paeds hospital because of bad staffing levels and patients safety at risk with agency nurses filling gaps . Imagine a busy surgical ward with just one staff nurse and agency nurses who are not familiar with the level of care ? Early retirement with a huge drop in salary was my only option for my own health and well being

How many are leaving because they are overworked and stressed, or how many are leaving because they are young, have a qualification which means that they can travel abroad for life experiences while earning?

I'm sure there are some of the former but I also expect that there are many of the latter.

iamwhoiam · 30-01-2019 08:10PM

Tell me how wrote: »

How many are leaving because they are overworked and stressed, or how many are leaving because they are young, have a qualification which means that they can travel abroad for life experiences while earning?

I'm sure there are some of the former but I also expect that there are many of the latter.

Yes you have a point of course . But also many nurses move to less stressful jobs as clinical specialists . OPD , Home Care , etc . Leaving too few senior staff nurses in the ward settings

Goldengirl · 30-01-2019 08:12PM

doolox wrote: »

Nurses direct health care and deal with medications etc. Unless there is a medical reason to do so they do not clean up patients in their care. They are more like junior management.

I am 10 years dealing with nursing home people on a daily basis in a non medical role and this is what I see. Nurses deal with paperwork and patient care in an indirect way. Health care assistants do the physical lifting carrying and cleaning and catering assistants feed the patients. There are separate staff for laundry and cleaning and separate staff for activities and dealing with payments and financial matters with relatives.

There is not the same level of intimacy with care of people that there used to be. Nurses now only deal with very sick people if they deal with any clients at all. Once they are on routine medical regime the bulk of the work and minding is done by health care assistants.

Not true.
In nursing homes there is probably 1/ 2 RGNs who are in charge , to do all the administration, medications and directing care so how in God's name could you expect them to do all the hands on care? .
In hospital, it is different. Nurses care for a group of patients, could be elderly or not, but usually sicker , entirely, with the help of a healthcare assistant if they are lucky.

Goldengirl · 30-01-2019 08:23PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Going to be controversial here. I work in the HSE as a pharmacist and I don't think nurses should be paid the same as me. On a pure financial level, I make savings multiple times of my salary, I switch regards to medicines management. I also make clinical decisions with regards to patients medications. I also have two masters which I had to do part time alongside work to get to my level. Nurses don't make the impact I do on a clinical level to be paid the same as me. I think a useful job development for nurses would be an advanced nurse practitioner role which possibly could enable to earn similar to me.

How much does a newly qualified basic new entrant pharmacist make? And one with one masters and more experience , say 10 years? You sound like a senior pharmacist, so you are not comparing like for like. And do you get an extra payment for your two masters? I know nurses who have two masters, make clinical decisions every day and save resources, and don't get paid that much, but it would be interesting to see how much more you get...

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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