Is grammar and proof reading gone from journalism?

29-01-2019 09:26AM

Motivator wrote: »

Most of the time these online “articles” are written by interns or people in junior positions in the company. Given their positions in the company, they’re most likely early twenty-somethings who have grown up in the social media and whatsapp age where a basic grasp on grammar is non existent.

The attached article was probably passed up to some coffee drinking, vaping moron who saw a beginning, a middle and an end and gave it the thumbs up. The articles on the independent.ie app are just as bad as this to be honest. Words missing, quotation marks missing etc.

I can guarantee that website has zero interns.

Pythagorean · 29-01-2019 11:14AM

DaithiMa wrote: »

It is all down to spellcheck. So called writers/journalists just use it and don't bother re-reading what they have written. Pure laziness.

In a national newspaper I have seen "peak" instead of peek, "quiet" instead of quite, and vice versa, as in "a quite neighbourhood". Worse again, if you look on the SEAI ( Sustainable Energy) website, an official government site, check out the electric vehicles subsection, you will see " Regenerative breaking" repeatedly used. I did email them pointing this out, but its still there. Lack of attention to basic correct usage is bad enough, but it can lead to bizarre logical errors. What happens if your "breaks" break ??? . "there were 1000 patients waiting on a bed"

CrabRevolution · 29-01-2019 11:17AM

Should it not be "Are grammar and proof reading gone from journalism"?

old_aussie · 29-01-2019 11:22AM

AI.. spelling and grammar checks do the final cut these days.

Your Face · 29-01-2019 11:49AM

They should have gone to The Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Do Other Stuff Good Too

Icemancometh · 29-01-2019 11:51AM

I'm reading the Indo in a waiting room. Below a picture of a judge reads "Caption xxxxy yyyyy xxxxxx yy Caption xxxxy yyyyy xxxxxx"

dxhound2005 · 29-01-2019 12:38PM

Icemancometh wrote: »

I'm reading the Indo in a waiting room. Below a picture of a judge reads "Caption xxxxy yyyyy xxxxxx yy Caption xxxxy yyyyy xxxxxx"

Human error. More forgivable in a daily paper which has to be produced by humans overnight. Mistakes happen. Less forgivable in a weekly paper, where I have seen it on more than one occasion.

El_Bee · 29-01-2019 12:42PM

Journalism is gone from journalism.

Grayson · 29-01-2019 01:42PM

circadian wrote: »

I can guarantee that website has zero interns.

yep. It's been mentioned many times on here before. For the benefit of those that don't know, that site is owned and run by one guy, Leo Sherlock. He's incredibly conservative/pro-life. He's the brother of this woman http://corasherlock.com/ and he's been sued for plagiarism.

He was forced to apoloise and he did so by posting a light pink apology on a white background so it was barely visible
https://www.thejournal.ie/the-liberal-apology-3494523-Jul2017/

http://www.thisisardee.ie/2017/07/13/sherlocks-civil-case-settled-ardee-apology-causes-stir/

It's also been reported that for some reason all the competitions run on the site seem to be won by fake facebook accounts.

On the plus side, it inspired at least one good WW news story

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/07/13/liberal-ie-forced-to-lay-off-12676-junior-staff/

I remember someone found the business he owns in webdesign. The page looked like it was created by a 15 year old using geocities in the mid 90's.

dxhound2005 · 29-01-2019 01:48PM

Mutant z wrote: »

Journalism is gone from journalism.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Journalism is gone from journalism

El_Bee wrote: »

Journalism is gone from journalism.

Apparently so.

29-01-2019 01:58PM

Grayson wrote: »

yep. It's been mentioned many times on here before. For the benefit of those that don't know, that site is owned and run by one guy, Leo Sherlock. He's incredibly conservative/pro-life. He's the brother of this woman http://corasherlock.com/ and he's been sued for plagiarism.

He was forced to apoloise and he did so by posting a light pink apology on a white background so it was barely visible
https://www.thejournal.ie/the-liberal-apology-3494523-Jul2017/

http://www.thisisardee.ie/2017/07/13/sherlocks-civil-case-settled-ardee-apology-causes-stir/

It's also been reported that for some reason all the competitions run on the site seem to be won by fake facebook accounts.

On the plus side, it inspired at least one good WW news story

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/07/13/liberal-ie-forced-to-lay-off-12676-junior-staff/

I remember someone found the business he owns in webdesign. The page looked like it was created by a 15 year old using geocities in the mid 90's.

There's also this Twitter account that tracked all the Facebook scams that were suspected to be used to harvest data for the Save the 8th Campaign, akin to Cambridge Analytica in UK/US.

https://twitter.com/theliberal_x?lang=en

orourkeda1977 · 29-01-2019 02:15PM

circadian wrote: »

There's also this Twitter account that tracked all the Facebook scams that were suspected to be used to harvest data for the Save the 8th Campaign, akin to Cambridge Analytica in UK/US.

https://twitter.com/theliberal_x?lang=en

Do you think the other side are above those tactics?

Arghus · 29-01-2019 02:27PM

Basic errors are creeping in more and more. There's a pressure to rush content out - news stories need to be read about almost instantaneously and there is always a need for spurious click bait - so corners get cut in terms of attention to detail.

Also, quite a lot of the time these stories are written by unprofessional journalists who aren't earning a great deal, if they're earning at all - but who'll be churning out story after story day after day.

It's far cry from back in the day when newspapers and other forms of printed media had a bit more time before having to publish and employed professional journalists and sub-editors and such.

You can blame the writers, but, personally, I think it's a reflection of the times: We want content and news, we want it now, but don't want to pay for it. Fair enough, but don't be too surprised if standards drop as a result.

dxhound2005 · 29-01-2019 02:31PM

Arghus wrote: »

Basic errors are creeping in more and more. There's a pressure to rush content out - news stories need to be read about almost instantaneously and there is always a need for spurious click bait - so corners get cut in terms of attention to detail.

Also, quite a lot of the time these stories are written by unprofessional journalists who aren't earning a great deal, if they're earning at all - but who'll be churning out story after story day after day.

It's far cry from back in the day when newspapers and other forms of printed media had a bit more time before having to publish and employed professional journalists and sub-editors and such.

You can blame the writers, but, personally, I think it's a reflection of the times: We want content and news, we want it now, but don't want to pay for it. Fair enough, but don't be too surprised if standards drop as a result.

There have always been errors in newspapers. The only way that someone could know if it is worse now is to read every newspaper every day.

Sharknose · 29-01-2019 02:36PM

Kevin Doyle
Irish Independent
January 29 2019 12:05 PM

"THE divorce referendum in May will ask voters if they want to hand the power for setting the ‘pause period’ before a couple can formally end their marriage to politicians, Independent.ie has learned"

Anyone here married to a politician ?

El Weirdo · 29-01-2019 02:50PM

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

Do you think the other side are above those tactics?

Start a Twitter account and expose them then.

TheChizler · 29-01-2019 02:59PM

What do we think of this one.

Original article in The Examiner yesterday, and a nearly identical article in The Indo today. I say nearly because the only differences are some punctuation and a few spelling errors - in the newer version!

Judge criticises Master of High Court for dismissing bank's repossession case before it reached court

Judge criticises Master of the High Court who last week had debt cases removed from workload

Pythagorean · 29-01-2019 03:30PM

TheChizler wrote: »

What do we think of this one.

Original article in The Examiner yesterday, and a nearly identical article in The Indo today. I say nearly because the only differences are some punctuation and a few spelling errors - in the newer version!

Judge criticises Master of High Court for dismissing bank's repossession case before it reached court

Judge criticises Master of the High Court who last week had debt cases removed from workload

Had a read of both articles, I could not see any errors.

TheChizler · 29-01-2019 03:36PM

Pythagorean wrote: »

Had a read of both articles, I could not see any errors.

The Master, who is s court official

There's one small one, there are a few punctuation differences. Just interesting that two articles which obviously have the same source differ in their proofing.

29-01-2019 03:53PM

The indo is shockingly bad, riddled with errors.
Kindle books are nearly as bad, to be honest. It's very rare that I read a book with no typos or mistakes. There are a few out there that clearly never saw an editor.
It's as irritating as a CD skipping.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-01-2019 06:01PM

Arghus wrote: »

Basic errors are creeping in more and more. There's a pressure to rush content out - news stories need to be read about almost instantaneously and there is always a need for spurious click bait - so corners get cut in terms of attention to detail.

Also, quite a lot of the time these stories are written by unprofessional journalists who aren't earning a great deal, if they're earning at all - but who'll be churning out story after story day after day.

It's far cry from back in the day when newspapers and other forms of printed media had a bit more time before having to publish and employed professional journalists and sub-editors and such.

You can blame the writers, but, personally, I think it's a reflection of the times: We want content and news, we want it now, but don't want to pay for it. Fair enough, but don't be too surprised if standards drop as a result.

Still though, I've read a lot of old newspaper articles and there are surprisingly a lot of mistakes: typos, misspellings, omission of words. A lot of big hitters too like the New York Times. The New York Times has a disclaimer saying that transcription errors occur when digitising their archive. Those transcription errors are always obvious. But the mistakes I’ve seen have been in articles I’ve read where you are reading off the actual original newspaper page.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 29-01-2019 06:26PM

Newspapers, having mostly failed to monetize in the digital age, are cutting back on staff as circulation and revenues decline. Independent News & Media has been running voluntary redundancy schemes for several years at this stage, and recently announced plans to cut back another 35 editorial staff in 2019. So that means fewer journalists, editors, proofreaders, etc.

The New York Times announced last year the elimination of its copy desk. Most other newspapers and publishers are also cutting back in this area. If a novel has glaring typos, will it affect sales? If not, executives don't care, because they can cut proofreaders and save money.

Arghus · 29-01-2019 06:54PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Still though, I've read a lot of old newspaper articles and there are surprisingly a lot of mistakes: typos, misspellings, omission of words. A lot of big hitters too like the New York Times. The New York Times has a disclaimer saying that transcription errors occur when digitising their archive. Those transcription errors are always obvious. But the mistakes I’ve seen have been in articles I’ve read where you are reading off the actual original newspaper page.

Of course mistakes and typos have always been with us, but it does seem a bit more prevalent now.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-01-2019 07:15PM

Arghus wrote: »

Of course mistakes and typos have always been with us, but it does seem a bit more prevalent now.

I used to think so too but having read so many old newspaper articles, I wouldn’t be so sure. Many of these old articles are littered with mistakes. Maybe they should be cut more slack because they didn’t have things like spellcheck to help them and there was a different kind of pressure then, trying to get big news stories out there in the evening editions and whatnot. But there were lots of mistakes made.

Pythagorean · 29-01-2019 10:42PM

The problem with spellcheckers, etc, is that they do not know the nuances and idiosyncrasies of the English language. Thus, they cannot pick up glaring errors like "breaks" instead of brakes, "muscles" instead of mussels, (I actually saw this in an article on seafood) !! Another horror I saw was "children in toe", and later on, in the same article "towing the line". I bet these were so called qualified writers, I would think that back in the days of the Primary Cert that these errors would have been spotted.

Birneybau · 30-01-2019 12:09AM

Sh!tty sites like the Daily Mail and its grotesque ilk basically crowdsource editing, changing articles with regards to glaring errors being pointed out in comments.

orourkeda1977 · 30-01-2019 01:06AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Start a Twitter account and expose them then.

no

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 30-01-2019 04:10AM

Pythagorean wrote: »

The problem with spellcheckers, etc, is that they do not know the nuances and idiosyncrasies of the English language. Thus, they cannot pick up glaring errors like "breaks" instead of brakes, "muscles" instead of mussels, (I actually saw this in an article on seafood) !! Another horror I saw was "children in toe", and later on, in the same article "towing the line". I bet these were so called qualified writers, I would think that back in the days of the Primary Cert that these errors would have been spotted.

One thing I’ve noticed with increasing frequency in publications, messageboards and social media is ‘queue’ being used where it should be ‘cue’. So instead of “Cue the music”, it will be “queue the music”, for example.

And I’m not a perfect speller or grammarian but the amount of people who use ‘it’s’ when it should be ‘its’ staggers me. People on this very messageboard who are clearly intelligent make this mistake all the time. I distinctly remember that I learned that grammar rule in fifth class. I know because I remember the teacher and he was my fifth class teacher.

Bowlardo · 30-01-2019 09:17AM

I agree with OP for published /paid article from the press should be held to a higher standard but grammar Nazi on boards post are a bit much

abcabc123123 · 30-01-2019 11:24AM

Two things at play here, both of which work to reduce standards in journalism.

The first, which has already been mentioned, is that the internet has undercut the business model of newspapers by offering their product for free. As a result, newspapers have become increasingly reliant on advertising revenue. This increases their dependence on traffic, which lends itself to clickbait and sensationalism, but also requires them to get their news out as fast as possible, which obviously increases errors.

The second is that the internet has fractured the media landscape, reducing readership for the mainstream outlets. Entry barriers to journalism, in terms of cost and also qualifications, have both fallen. A good example of this is the OP – he has quoted theliberal.ie, which is a free website started by a guy with no qualifications in journalism. Obviously, standards in journalism are going to fall when you start mixing in Joe Soap on the street who has an opinion with people who have studied journalism and apply journalistic standards to their professional work.

Before the internet your print and digital media choices were limited. You had a choice of a couple of sources of news on TV and a couple of newspapers. These would reflect a moderately diverse range of outlooks, but in general they were professional publications staffed with professional journalists. The standards journalists are duty bound to follow mean a certain fidelity to the truth. Hence you occasionally see retractions and apologies issued when standards aren’t followed. The mainstream newspapers are to a reasonable degree tethered to objective truth, which they are of course free to interpret based on their own ideological outlook, but they remain tethered to it all the same, and this keeps them from straying too far from the centre.

Some of their readers might not have liked this, but they didn’t have any other options.

The internet has changed that. Nowadays if you don’t like that a newspaper isn’t pandering to you on your particular ideological hobby-horse, rather than have those views challenged, which isn’t a particularly pleasant feeling for humans, you can start your own opinion site, or find someone similar who has already done so. It doesn’t matter that you’re not a journalist with no requirements or even understanding of how to apply objective fact-checking; you’re free to publish and it’s not unlikely that people with similar outlooks will consume your product, because it chimes with their worldview too. You like reading stuff that you agree with. It feels good to have your worldview reinforced. Whereas before, your biases would have been challenged by the media you consumed, now your biases are confirmed. Over time this takes you away from the centre and reinforces your belief that the mainstream, who either does not cover your desired topics or does not cover them the way you believe is right, is corrupt. If it is corrupt, you’re obviously not going to pay for it. If you don’t pay for it, standards will decline, which further reinforces your view that you shouldn’t pay for it. And so on it goes.

Is grammar and proof reading gone from journalism?

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