Stallions

Inion An Ri · 28-10-2018 11:37pm

The race possibly came too soon for Norway, having run just 2 weeks previously in another 10f race, Sydney Opera House had a much easier time in that previous race when he was unable to get a clear run. Coolmore will have been happy enough with the 1-2 for Camelot and Australia. Camelot now has 13 stakes winners, including 3 G1 winners, and Australia received lots of good press over the weekend. He has a lot of promising types without having a star 2yo, but it looks like they take time to mature. Australia himself was put away early as a 2yo.
Was surprised that they dropped Hermosa back to 7f today, she really needs the mile already and Ryan was prevented from setting a strong pace. Godolphin have been farming these weak French races all year, and know how to ride them, a French jockey helps too.
Also surprising to see Anthony Van Dyck being aimed at the Juvenile Turf, expected him to be put away. But the Breeders Cup is a major target for Ballydoyle and they like to have at least one winner, AVD is probably their best shot. And after all, Mendelssohn won it last year, with this year's Derby winner in behind!
In his interview yesterday, Aidan said that his 2yos' development was impacted by the virus from June onwards, and he expected more improvement to come from them as 3yos than might normally be the case.

tryfix · 29-10-2018 5:25pm

One-time Classic hope James Cook, who defeated Latrobe in a Leopardstown maiden last October, is set to take up stud duties in Uzbekistan after selling for 42,000gns to Andriy Ostapchuk of Imperial Bloodstock.

The Galileo colt, a brother to Found, was the highlight of Ballydoyle's first batch of horses through the ring. The group also included the winning two-year-olds North Face, who was highly tried this season, and Isle Of Innisfree (a brother to Sioux Nation), who sold for 25,000gns and 23,000gns to Damian English and Paul d'Arcy.

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-latest/bumper-week-of-selling-for-autumn-hit-sale-gets-under-way/351458

Never thought this lad would keep his tackle and become a stallion, but the expectations that go with being a full brother to Arc winner Found look to be finally paying off for James Cook.

Mgoraf · 02-11-2018 10:27pm

There you go tryfix!

tryfix · 03-11-2018 12:45am

Mgoraf wrote: »

There you go tryfix!

Delighted to see that bonny little horse get his GP 1 win in the States ( it ties in well with last week's French GP1) and he'll be my Epsom horse if he makes it there. He hates to lose, that's worth following any day.

Also that Gosden War Front 2yo out of Immortal Verse that won at Newmarket today is a good filip for Caravaggio who was allowed by Coolmore to cover the 4.7m buy Immortal Verse. Really hoping that Caravaggio is going to be a big success at stud.

tryfix · 05-11-2018 10:05pm

Darley fees for 2019.

Cracksman to stand at Dalham Hall for £25,000. That's a sort of sensible fee ( maybe £5k too much ) which should see him fill his book and notch up a few decent middle-distance horses in the making. He is a smashing specimen but I wouldn't be too wild about his pedigree especially the Frankel part.

Harry Angel to stand at £20,000

Hawkbill starts his career at a very reasonable £7,500 which is a nice entry price for a flashy very well bred son of Kittens Joy.

Cloth Of Stars to stand for €7,500 in France

Exceed and Excel stands at €50,000 which seems a little high?

€40,000 for Teofilo

£35,000 for Ifraaj.

£30,000 for New Approach and €15,000 for his promising son Dawn Approach.

Dubawi stays at £250,000 ( he's proving himself well worth his earlier fee rises )

https://www.darleyeurope.com/stallions/our-stallions

kiers47 · 08-11-2018 6:28pm

No Nay Nevers's stud fee gone from €25k to €100k.
That's one hell of a jump. All be it his 2yos have been brilliant.

paddyisreal · 08-11-2018 6:33pm

Exceed and excel for 50 or no nay never for double that. Makes little sense to me

tryfix · 08-11-2018 6:46pm

kiers47 wrote: »

No Nay Nevers's stud fee gone from €25k to €100k.
That's one hell of a jump. All be it his 2yos have been brilliant.

45657552_10217711966529624_7472744487991640064_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-dub4-1.xx&oh=ef55b04e1ca036707895b7dadec1e5fe&oe=5C7DB16A

The sales market has gone through the roof but only at the top end. The stupendous fee rise marks No Nay Never out as being the European heir to Scat Daddy's crown and from here on his book will be full of the cream of mares which can deliver regardless of No Nay Never's input into the resultant foals. Branding Power it's kind of like overcharging for a supposedly prestige brand of car which shares common components with the more mundane marks of the same motor group.

kiers47 · 09-11-2018 5:23pm

Old news but just seeing that kessaar is retiring to tally ho stud after what was obviously an above average 2yo career but hardly anything to get excited about.

Fairly sure he wasn't forced out by injury either.

13-11-2018 9:03pm

I says wrote: »

Order of Saint George to replace him??

Looks like it. Doesnt say which stud he'll be standing though nor fee as yet.

https://coolmore.com/farms/nationalhunt/stallions/order-of-st-george

tatoo · 19-12-2018 2:32am

Order of St George to Castlehyde, and .......Wings of Eagles, back from France , to the Beeches.
Both 6 1/2k.

tryfix · 19-12-2018 1:46pm

tatoo wrote: »

Order of St George to Castlehyde, and .......Wings of Eagles, back from France , to the Beeches.
Both 6 1/2k.

Yet another kick in the teeth for the reputation of the Epsom Derby. Wings Of Eagles relegated to the NH sphere before his first foals have even been born and he was a beautiful yealing who made a few hundred thousand at the sales so it's not like he was a mongrel unworthy of touching decent mares.

That follows the blue blooded Epsom winner Ruler Of The World being set an opening stud fee of €8,000 with his legendary half brother and multiple Gp1 winner producing sire Duke Of Marmalade having since being banished from Coolmore for the crime of producing high quality stayers.

It's a fascinating aspect to the current state of market in these parts that an Epsom Derby becoming a NH sire at €6,500 a pop is likely to have a long and very lucrative career while the same horse would likely find himself struggling to fill a book of flat mares at the same price .

"Federico Tesio famously said that ‘the thoroughbred exists because its selection has depended, not on experts, technicians, or zoologists, but on a piece of wood: the winning post of the Epsom Derby."

At the moment if it wasn't for Galileo that saying would ring quite hollow.

tatoo · 19-12-2018 8:41pm

I think a major part of the problem for Wings of Eagles as a flat prospect, was that his sire Pour Moi, had been relegated to the National Hunt covering sheds a few months before W of E won his Derby. It would have been difficult to promote an Epsom Derby winner at an appropriate flat fee, when his dad is covering jumpers down the road at a fraction of that fee.
They wouldn't have been in that position only for Fame and Glory's premature death ( prompting PMs move ), or if they had given a better backing to Pour Moi themselves.

Robson99 · 19-12-2018 9:54pm

tatoo wrote: »

Order of St George to Castlehyde, and .......Wings of Eagles, back from France , to the Beeches.
Both 6 1/2k.

Which is the better value???

tatoo · 20-12-2018 6:45pm

I think a young Derby winner with a very nice pedigree for National Hunt is very appealing, I'm certainly going to go and see him.

20-12-2018 7:58pm

tatoo wrote: »

I think a young Derby winner with a very nice pedigree for National Hunt is very appealing, I'm certainly going to go and see him.

I was interested in Order of St George but I will certainly be going for a look at Wings of Eagles now too.

tryfix · 26-12-2018 11:55pm

Mastercraftsman had another Gp1 winner today, this time it was the 4yo gelding Danzdanzdance who was completing a December Gp1 double in New Zealand after taking his first Gp1 on the 8th December. I'm sure the form doesn't add up to a whole lot but Mastercraftsman himself at €30,000 must be the most underpriced stallion who's already a guaranteed source of high quality Gp1 winners.

The mighty Treve is on for a date with Sea The Stars which is an interesting pedigree match. There'd be a fear that a daughter of Motivator ( Montjeu ) would need a sharper stallion influence than Sea The Stars to avoid producing an out and out stayer from the mating of two Arc Winners, but Sea The Stars has already sped up some very stoutly bred mares such as Ezima to produce the Oaks winner Taghrooda.

The match also works by mimicking Galileo's breeding to a fair extent with the Sadler's Wells line Treve being crossed again with the Urban Sea line of Sea The Stars. Both Treve and Sea The Stars won over 1 mile so that's a hopeful sign that there may be some 8-10f talent as well as 12f staying power in the produce of this match.

Treve already had a Dubawi foal which will be a 2yo in 2019 and she visited the sprinter Shaala for her last mating.

tryfix · 07-01-2019 12:14pm

No matter how good of a racehorse you were it ain't easy when you're considered to be an unfashionable stallion.

Canford Cliffs sold to South Africa where he joined the also banished Duke Of Marmalade. Incidentally the multiple Gp1 winner and teak tough Juddmonte owned Twice Over was also banished to South Africa without ever getting to stand in the Northern Hemisphere. Twice Over is now a great success there. Rip Van Winkle seems to have been banished to New-Zealand which considering his results is fair enough in my book.

Coolmore have spent countless millions trying to ensure the Scat Daddy sire line continues but they let Daddy Long Legs one of their earliest talented Scat Daddy's slip away to study in Chile where he's been such a sire sensation that he's been snapped up back up to the USA by Taylor Made Farm

I suppose it can't be helped when you've got a stallion producing conveyor belt such as Coolmore have. Something has to give when you're drowning in stallion prospects. Old Henrythenavigator had a good run at Coolmore with some early success at the highest level but it's no great loss that they moved him on, it is however a bit of a shock to see him gone to Russia.

Henrythenavigator's first crop Gp1 Phoenix stakes winner Pedro The Great appears to be dragging himself up the food chain after starting life off in France at a fee of €3,000 for his first 3 years at stud which rose to €6,000 in 2018 and has been raised again to €10,000 in 2019 after the exploits of his Grade 1 winning daughter Fatale Bere in the US. Pedro The Great's rise is not all that surprising when you take it into consideration that he's a juvenile Gp1 winning half-brother to Coolmore's 2,000 Guineas winner Footstepsinthesand who has a very long and quietly successful stallion career at Coolmore.

Who should perhaps be up for the chop at Coolmore or elsewhere?

tryfix · 21-01-2019 4:43pm

While the old man Galileo keeps on keeping on, one of his first group 1 winning sons Red Rocks passed away at the age of 15. A moderately successful sire in the Americas.

While reading up about Red Rocks adventures in South America I started to think about one of Galileo's sire sons Roderic O'Connor who had a few grade 1 winners from shuttling to South America. The last I had heard of him in the Northern Hemisphere was when he was picked up by the UK National Stud in 2015 to stand at a £9,000 fee for the 2016 season and there was no sign of where he went from there. No new foals etc registered in the last few years

It took a bit of tracking down but his seeming falling off the face of the earth in 2016 was due to his being moved to Poonawalla Stud in India in 2016. The same Indian outfit had purchased Roderic in 2011 but it seems that there was a 5 year dual-hemisphere hiccup in their plans to bring him to India.

The Tetrarch · 21-01-2019 5:31pm

TheTorment wrote: »

I was interested in Order of St George but I will certainly be going for a look at Wings of Eagles now too.

My big regret about that 2017 Derby was after betting on Permian (RIP) I did my last bit of analysis the night before the race.

There is an old saying "never put sire line over sire line"
for example, never breed a Northern Dancer sire line stallion to a Northern Dancer sire line mare.
I take that a step further and compare the two sire lines of the sire with the two sire lines of the dam.
These days you often get four lines of Northern Dancer.

Using that saying I eliminated all the 2017 Derby field except Wings Of Eagles, who has Northern Dancer and Mill Reef sire lines in his sire Pour Moi, and Zeddaan and Red God as the sire lines of his dam, four different lines.
And then I decided he could not win. :cool:

tatoo · 21-01-2019 10:42pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

My big regret about that 2017 Derby was after betting on Permian (RIP) I did my last bit of analysis the night before the race.

There is an old saying "never put sire line over sire line"
for example, never breed a Northern Dancer sire line stallion to a Northern Dancer sire line mare.
I take that a step further and compare the two sire lines of the sire with the two sire lines of the dam.
These days you often get four lines of Northern Dancer.

Using that saying I eliminated all the 2017 Derby field except Wings Of Eagles, who has Northern Dancer and Mill Reef sire lines in his sire Pour Moi, and Zeddaan and Red God as the sire lines of his dam, four different lines.
And then I decided he could not win. :cool:

Well feck it anyway, wasn't he 40 or 50/1 as well !
I saw him there recently, he's a very handsome horse about 16.1 1/2".......I think I'll probably send him a mare - didn't talk about money yet.

The Tetrarch · 22-01-2019 12:13am

tatoo wrote: »

Well feck it anyway, wasn't he 40 or 50/1 as well !
I saw him there recently, he's a very handsome horse about 16.1 1/2".......I think I'll probably send him a mare - didn't talk about money yet.

He is a very good looking horse, with a presence.
I am interested in him for the flat, even if he is / becomes a jumps sire.

tryfix · 22-01-2019 2:41am

tatoo wrote: »

Well feck it anyway, wasn't he 40 or 50/1 as well !
I saw him there recently, he's a very handsome horse about 16.1 1/2".......I think I'll probably send him a mare - didn't talk about money yet.

The Tetrarch wrote: »

He is a very good looking horse, with a presence.
I am interested in him for the flat, even if he is / becomes a jumps sire.

Good looks run in the family, above is Circuit Number One his €1.14 million ( Hong Kong sales record price breaking ) Holy Roman Emperor half brother who made that huge price despite being an unraced? 4yo gelding.

Wings Of Eagles made €220,000 himself which was a big price for a Pour Moi, his year older half sister by SeaThe Stars made €600,000 as a yearling and the promising Kingman filly Sparkle Roll made €750,000 a few months after Wings Of Eagles Derby win.

Wings Of Eagles dam Ysoldina finished 3rd in the French 1,000 gns and her half sibling Belle Et Celebre won the Gp1 Prix Saint alary. Their dam Rotina has produced 6 stakes winners.

That's a tasty flat pedigree for €6,500 a pop at this stage.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/wings-of-eagles-kin-sets-new-hk-intl-sale-record/

The Tetrarch · 22-01-2019 1:46pm

Wings Of Eagles English Derby win reminds me of the 1961 race won by Psidium 66/1.
Watch the 1961 race on Youtube (Pathe News), Psidium out the back most of the way, never in the race, sweeps by the lot and wins easily.
Both races on fast ground.

tatoo · 22-01-2019 8:05pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Wings Of Eagles English Derby win reminds me of the 1961 race won by Psidium 66/1.
Watch the 1961 race on Youtube (Pathe News), Psidium out the back most of the way, never in the race, sweeps by the lot and wins easily.
Both races on fast ground.

I must check it out, Wings of Eagles own win was very similar to his own sire's win.

tryfix · 27-01-2019 11:13pm

There's a 12f group 1 contest tonight in India. I had a look at the field to see what kind of pedigrees the runners possessed and lo and behold there's a Teofilo colt there who appears to be straight of the Jim Bolger "ye can't get enough of Galileo in a horse" school of inbreeding.

Bradfield College is by Teofilo ( Galileo X Speirbhean ) out of the Galileo mare Luminous One ( Galileo X Smaoineamh )

https://www.pedigreequery.com/bradfield+college

I've seen Bolger cross a Galileo mare with Galileo's half brother Sea The Star's but I think this is really taking the biscuit.

tryfix · 28-01-2019 2:44am

tryfix wrote: »

There's a 12f group 1 contest tonight in India. I had a look at the field to see what kind of pedigrees the runners possessed and lo and behold there's a Teofilo colt there who appears to be straight of the Jim Bolger "ye can't get enough of Galileo in a horse" school of inbreeding.

Bradfield College is by Teofilo ( Galileo X Speirbhean ) out of the Galileo mare Luminous One ( Galileo X Smaoineamh )

https://www.pedigreequery.com/bradfield+college

I've seen Bolger cross a Galileo mare with Galileo's half brother Sea The Star's but I think this is really taking the biscuit.

Bradfield College ran a fine 2nd to the favourite Indian Pharaoh. So now Coolmore know what to do with all those Galileo mares that are clogging up the place, just send them to his stallion sons. :pac:

tatoo · 28-01-2019 3:04pm

Ha ha, problem solved !

Is there anything to be said for sending a dual purpose/national hunt Montjeu mare to a son of Galileo do you think?
I would've been inclined to avoid a SW repetition top and bottom.

tryfix · 28-01-2019 4:04pm

tatoo wrote: »

Ha ha, problem solved !

Is there anything to be said for sending a dual purpose/national hunt Montjeu mare to a son of Galileo do you think?
I would've been inclined to avoid a SW repetition top and bottom.

The Tetrarch could guide you on the suitability.

From my own POV I'd think that a Montjeu mare to a Galileo son could be worth risking. It's 3x3 inbreeding while the mighty Enable got away with 3x2 inbreeding and that seems to have worked out well.

Montjeu mare to son of Galileo 3x3

Sire- Galileo X sire's dam- Sadlers's Wells

Mare- Montjeu X mare's dam - Sadler's Wells

Enable 3x2

Nathaniel- Galileo X Magnificent Style - Sadler's Wells

Concentric - Sadler's Wells X Apogee

One of the most successful nicks of recent times has been the Danehill X Sadler's Wells cross.

Peeping Fawn 3X3

Danehill - Danzig X Razyana - Northern Dancer

Maryinsky - Sadlers's Wells X Blush With Pride - Northern Dancer.

The Tetrarch · 28-01-2019 5:33pm

I see my name mentioned.

My preference if for inbreeding duplications to be in the 4th, 5th, 6th generations because you can have more of them as there are more horses in those generations (16+32+64).
If the inbreeding is in the 2nd or 3rd generation there are so few horses that close (1+2+4+8) that it is hit or miss with one inbreeding.
With Enable the 3x2 to Sadler's Wells produce a son and daughter, and that is different from an inbreeding producing two sons (the common result), and imo the undesired result).

I did a bit of work over the weekend on Northern Dancer, checking on the many sons of his you find in pedigrees and how few daughters you find.
This happens because of the many sons of famous sires that go to stud. Below is an extract from a PM I sent.

Northern Dancer has 506 offspring in my data, 222 colts, 284 fillies.
The 222 colts (sons of Northern Dancer) had 17,464 offspring.
the 284 fillies (daughters of Northern Dancer) had 1,470 offspring.
17,464 horses carrying sons of Northern Dancer and 1,470 carrying daughters of Northern Dancer. an 11.88 to 1 ratio.
Moving on another generation the 17,464 produced 85,597 and the 1,470 produced 6,086, the ratio now 14.06 to 1.

You can see how quickly pedigrees are flooded with sons of Northern Dancer, 85,597 to 6,086.
93% of Northern Dancer duplications are sons, and 7% are daughters.

3,049 of the 6,086 descendents of Northern Dancer through daughters
continue through a handful of sires scattered around the world, few in Ireland

Below on the left is the daughter of Norther Dancer and then the count of the offspring through her sons and daughters. Her major sire son(s) is listed.
BALLET DE FRANCE (f) 140 MUHTARRAM - stud in Ireland (retired?)
DANCE NUMBER (f) 629 RHYTHM - stud in Japan, New Zealand, USA
DANSEUR FABULEUX (f) 389 - NOVERRE - stud in Ireland, UK, Australia, India; ARAZI (f) -stud in UK, USA, Japan, Switzerland, Australia
DISCONIZ (f) 97 - DIGAMIST - stud in Ireland, USA
FALAFEL (f) 270 - BRIEF TRUCE - stud in Ireland, Australia
FANFRELUCHE (f) 275 - D'ACCORD; L'ENJOLEUR; MEDAILLE D'OR - all stud USA
NORTHERN SEA (f) 487 - SOUTHERN HALO - stud in Argentina
SLEEK DANCER (f) 103 - NORTHERN PROSPECT - stud in USA
WILD APPLAUSE (f) 659 - ROAR - stud in USA and Argentina

Where there is a close inbreeding that works there is often a component of that inbreeding elsewhere in the pedigree to balance it.
Peeping Fawn (f) has a 3x3 Northern Dancer inbreeding, but Northern Dancer's dam Natalma is also in Danehill to balance (Peeping Fawn is 4,4x4 to Natalma (f)).

And in Peeping Fawn the dam side of her sire Danehill, and the dam side of her dam Maryinsky both have .......
Alibhai (daughter and son);
Menow (son and daughter);
Busanda (f) (War Admiral out of Businesslike(whose dam is La Troienne)) and Mr Busher (m) (War Admiral out of Baby League (whose dam id La Troienne)).
Bull Dog;
Discovery;
Blenheim.

People who try a close inbreeding usually get two sons of a duplicated sire (imo a negative) and that seldom works without a lot of other positives.

Stallions

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