Brexit Discussion Thread VI

fly_agaric · 24-01-2019 09:59PM

Leo Varadkar wrote:

we are "forever closing tax loopholes"

well after the horse has bolted (when they get too egregious and we start to cop some heat for it.:pac:)!
You can always rustle up new ones easily with a pen stroke anyway.

prawnsambo · 24-01-2019 09:59PM

Folkstonian wrote: »

Not sure where I said I thought that it would be expedient or advantageous to declare nuclear war on our closest continental ‘neighbour’.

I simply corrected what read as a deliberate attempt to distort the truth and not a ‘tongue in cheek riposte’.

But anyway I’m getting quite fed up with the whole endeavour now. I’ve swung from being a remainer, to a Brexit supporter, back to a remainer, and back yet again to a Brexit supporter. I just want it to be over now and hope we salvage some kind of deal. It’s going to mean a few years of turbulence but that will just have to be negotiated.

I’m finding it ever harder to find the political dynamic of the European Union as agreeable prospect going forward. Geemany and France have ignited the afterburners on economic and military integration. Things that were written off as unhelpful and impossible scare stories just a few years ago are now being talked about by heads of state and willed on by influential MEPs.

I think we’ve got to a stage where there’s no going back, for anybody, and an extension of article 50 will be dreaded by all sides.

If you want it to be over, then the only option is to call the whole thing off. Because it will be a headline item for years to come regardless of whether it's a deal or no deal. There'll be trade deals or no trade deals, talks stalling or coming close to fruition only to stall again. And then every time something happens that can be pointed to as brexit related, that will be headline news too. Rinse and repeat.

Beechwoodspark · 24-01-2019 09:59PM

aindriu80 wrote: »

I guess your right EdgeCase. I think the brits are really egging them on though!

I’m sure the British are trying their damndest to sow a bit of discord. What’s it called again...oh yeah...divide and rule

downcow · 24-01-2019 10:00PM

Hurrache wrote: »

Still waiting for the reasons you believe Brexit will be good for Northern Ireland and its people.

I think the mod told you that question was answered. I’ll answer again if you wish

Hurrache · 24-01-2019 10:02PM

downcow wrote: »

I think the mod told you that question was answered. I’ll answer again if you wish

Not that question I believe. Thanks for answering it again in case I previously missed it in the chaos.

Irishmale0399 · 24-01-2019 10:03PM

The longer this all goes on the more I think the EU should give Donald a ring. Let him practice his wall building from Omeath to Donegal.......let the people of N.Ireland run an indepentant state for 5-10 years and then we can all sit down again. Ask them then if they want to be in the EU, independant or reunite with Ireland or rejoin the UK. Might be the making of the country when they have no fallback in London and know that they have to do things right without the usual sh1te. Also solves the UK/EU problem and we can all get on with our lives......

Leroy42 · 24-01-2019 10:05PM

Folkstonian states what it appears many in the UK seem to think. "Just get BRexit done with and move on".

As pointed out, this really is only the start of it. Either go with TM deal and have 3 more years of constant talk about the impending backstop coupled with continuing arguments about the trade deal. Ir crash out and have the next few years trying to piece together some sort of trade policy and probably spend years in court dealing with claims and WTO cases.

The only way this ends anytime soon is to cancel Brexit.

FrancieBrady · 24-01-2019 10:06PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

The longer this all goes on the more I think the EU should give Donald a ring. Let him practice his wall building from Omeath to Donegal.......let the people of N.Ireland run an indepentant state for 5-10 years and then we can all sit down again. Ask them then if they want to be in the EU, independant or reunite with Ireland or rejoin the UK. Might be the making of the country when they have no fallback in London and know that they have to do things right without the usual sh1te. Also solves the UK/EU problem and we can all get on with our lives......

We already know the majority in northern Ireland want to stay in the EU.

prawnsambo · 24-01-2019 10:07PM

downcow wrote: »

I am finding it difficult to engage with this discussion. It seems people from ‘ireland’ can be as offensive as the wish towards Northern Ireland but dare us from the ‘north’ say a word that may be seen as disengeniois or we are reprimanded.
I know you guys are very frustrated about the direction of things but don’t shoot the messenger.
Tbh I am not rattled with being told to go to hell above or the other endless derogatory stuff about the north, our elected reps, our government, etc. But I think there needs to be a wee bit of openness to take it if you give it.
Guess that might be me in trouble again but when we are all gone you will be able to have nice discussions about how awful the brits are without anyone challenging the attitudes

Instead of playing the victim card, perhaps you could actually address the issue raised by the poster. Nobody here has told NI what to do. What they have said to you is that NI voted to remain and for a very good reason. Don't come back to me about the UK vote, because this is about this island and how it will deal with the fallout. So stupid and ill-informed comments from DUP MPs about what this country should do, when this country did not precipitate the crisis is quite likely to raise ire.

lawred2 · 24-01-2019 10:07PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Folkstonian states what it appears many in the UK seem to think. "Just get BRexit done with and move on".

As pointed out, this really is only the start of it. Either go with TM deal and have 3 more years of constant talk about the impending backstop coupled with continuing arguments about the trade deal. Ir crash out and have the next few years trying to piece together some sort of trade policy and probably spend years in court dealing with claims and WTO cases.

The only way this ends anytime soon is to cancel Brexit.

There is always the option of going full rogue state

Folkstonian · 24-01-2019 10:09PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

If you want it to be over, then the only option is to call the whole thing off. Because it will be a headline item for years to come regardless of whether it's a deal or no deal. There'll be trade deals or no trade deals, talks stalling or coming close to fruition only to stall again. And then every time something happens that can be pointed to as brexit related, that will be headline news too. Rinse and repeat.

I don’t agree because there is no status quo. Rescinding the article 50 notice or having a second referendum doesn’t mean that things go back to how they were.

Europe seemingly wants to increase the pace of integration. Europe now isn’t the same as it was in 2015 and it isn’t going back.

I don’t feel any particular annoyance at that, because it’s not up to Britain or any British person to tell the EU what it should do.

But I feel an ever increasing disconnect and a growing sense of unease at the intended pace and ubiquity of integration. Being honest, I don’t ‘feel’ like a European, I don’t feel like much of Europe would see me as European, but I still would like to maintain good relations and a sense of shared values where it is appropriate etc

I think that, more and more, people are going to need to be fully on board for this social integration aspect to work. I can’t ever see a time in England when thst will be the case.

At least in the EEA we would have a proper safety barrier between Britain and the European Parliament, Macron, Merkel and their plans for Europe etc

I really am starting to think it offers the best of both worlds, for Britain and for Europe!

downcow · 24-01-2019 10:10PM

Hurrache wrote: »

Not that question I believe. Thanks for answering it again in case I previously missed it in the chaos.

The answer is None
The majority of our nation voted to leave. We are a democracy. Our region has had massive economical support from our nation (UK). We would be absolutely insane to separate and go with a nation (ireland) which even according th sf has showed little or no interest in our wellbeing over last 100 years.
I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times
Does that help you?

Irishmale0399 · 24-01-2019 10:11PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We already know the majority in northern Ireland want to stay in the EU.

At this stage the majority must also have an Irish passport and the half of that majority dont want to be Irish......

Capt'n Midnight · 24-01-2019 10:12PM

aindriu80 wrote: »

What do you make of the polish leader Mateusz Morawiecki having a go at Ireland :

https://www.independent.ie/business/gavin-mcloughlin-leo-varadkar-was-brutally-undercut-by-his-polish-counterpart-in-front-of-the-worlds-most-influential-people-37745441.html

That country is starting to stink a lot for me

It's the indo so may not be factually accurate.

Besides that has nothing to do with Brexit. It's like FF complaining about FG on domestic issues but maintaining a united front on Brexit to the UK. Day to day politics in the EU hasn't been put on hold because of Brexit.

In the UK though keeping the lights on has been ignored as most of the nuclear plants and coal plants are due to shutdown and only one of the six new nuclear plants proposed has started construction. But at an extortionate price and funded by the Chinese.
#takebackcontrol

They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
For trying to change the system from within
- Leonard Cohen

On the other Robert F. Kennedy said a Chinese curse says "may you live in interesting times"

Leroy42 · 24-01-2019 10:14PM

downcow wrote: »

The answer is None
The majority of our nation voted to leave. We are a democracy. Our region has had massive economical support from our nation (UK). We would be absolutely insane to separate and go with a nation (ireland) which even according th sf has showed little or no interest in our wellbeing over last 100 years.
I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times
Does that help you?

But why so black and white? BRexit was never about UI, and it was never sold as a crash out. The softest of Brexit, Norway for example would not have required any of that. Yet it was ruled out, not by democracy but by a minority government. And the DUP have stood shoulder to shoulder with them despite there constituents (NI as a whole not GE wise) voting to remain (or things to stay the same).

At what point in the ref did Leave or Remain claim it was about a UI?

You have made up a strawman argument to give yourself a reason to rail against

downcow · 24-01-2019 10:14PM

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

At this stage the majority must also have an Irish passport and the half of that majority dont want to be Irish......

Could you tell me why there is a struggle to accept the UK vote as representative but the NI vote doesn’t give you the same concern.
Remember NI vote was very close and that was with the Ulster unionist party supporting remain. If there were a rerun their supporters would primarily be leave. Don’t assume NI won’t vote leave.

FrancieBrady · 24-01-2019 10:15PM

Folkstonian wrote: »

I don’t agree because there is no status quo. Rescinding the article 50 notice or having a second referendum doesn’t mean that things go back to how they were.

Europe seemingly wants to increase the pace of integration. Europe now isn’t the same as it was in 2015 and it isn’t going back.

I don’t feel any particular annoyance at that, because it’s not up to Britain or any British person to tell the EU what it should do.

But I feel an ever increasing disconnect and a growing sense of unease at the intended pace and ubiquity of integration. Being honest, I don’t ‘feel’ like a European, I don’t feel like much of Europe would see me as European, but I still would like to maintain good relations and a sense of shared values where it is appropriate etc

I think that, more and more, people are going to need to be fully on board for this social integration aspect to work. I can’t ever see a time in England when thst will be the case.

At least in the EEA we would have a proper safety barrier between Britain and the European Parliament, Macron, Merkel and their plans for Europe etc

I really am starting to think it offers the best of both worlds, for Britain and for Europe!

What does that mean??

Do you think a Greek feels different to a French person? Of course they do. There is no homogeneous type of European, it is just a name for the people who live in Europe.

Hurrache · 24-01-2019 10:16PM

Folkstonian wrote: »

] because it’s not up to Britain or any British person to tell the EU what it should do.

And this is the problem. Britain was the EU, and it was heavily favoured when it came to voting weighting. But yet the myth is still perpetuated that they have no say. Crazy.

downcow · 24-01-2019 10:17PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But why so black and white? BRexit was never about UI, and it was never sold as a crash out. The softest of Brexit, Norway for example would not have required any of that. Yet it was ruled out, not by democracy but by a minority government. And the DUP have stood shoulder to shoulder with them despite there constituents (NI as a whole not GE wise) voting to remain (or things to stay the same).

At what point in the ref did Leave or Remain claim it was about a UI?

You have made up a strawman argument to give yourself a reason to rail against

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

Leroy42 · 24-01-2019 10:17PM

downcow wrote: »

Could you tell me why there is a struggle to accept the UK vote as representative but the NI vote doesn’t give you the same concern.
Remember NI vote was very close and that was with the Ulster unionist party supporting remain. If there were a rerun their supporters would primarily be leave. Don’t assume NI won’t vote leave.

You have evidence of this switch I assume?

What was the result in NI. 56/44 Because if you consider that not being close then the actual 52/48 must be considered even on that basis

Hurrache · 24-01-2019 10:18PM

downcow wrote: »

The answer is None
The majority of our nation voted to leave. We are a democracy. Our region has had massive economical support from our nation (UK). We would be absolutely insane to separate and go with a nation (ireland) which even according th sf has showed little or no interest in our wellbeing over last 100 years.
I would rather stay with our nation of 70million people than dive into the unknown with a nation of 5 million and reliant on Eu which is heading into very difficult times
Does that help you?

But the question was not about a united Ireland, which seems to be what your basing your answer on. Nor is the answer related to staying in the EU?

FrancieBrady · 24-01-2019 10:19PM

downcow wrote: »

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

Protect their interests and not protect abstract notions. Quite simple. A backstop will not make the slightest difference to your position, the lack of one will in time because you crash out if it is not there.
Your living and economic stability is being protected by Dublin and the EU not Westminster.

Leroy42 · 24-01-2019 10:20PM

downcow wrote: »

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

Ask for what NI voted for, or as close to what they can.

Point out the part of the vote regarding UI? WHy not the Norway option? WHy does it have to be this full hard BRexit which places such a strain on the GFA, ROI.UK relations and even places the very future of NI economy at such risk.

Why has NI simply accepted the red lines of the Tory party, aligned itself to the ERG?

Folkstonian · 24-01-2019 10:22PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What does that mean??

Do you think a Greek feels different to a French person? Of course they do. There is no homogeneous type of European, it is just a name for the people who live in Europe.

Well that is kind of why I put it in quotation marks. I honestly don’t know what it isn’t meant to mean, or meant to feel like. All I know is I don’t have any feeling at all on that front.

And I think that’s one of the problems, maybe. It’s not out of malice or ill will. There’s nowhere more interesting on the planet for me than the continent of Europe. But it doesn’t feel like anything other than a foreign place.

And I think having an emotional connection to the idea, or the concept of a European ‘home’ is going to be so important for everyone who is going to be able to accept all of the integration drives. I don’t want England to be trying to pulling up the handbrake whilst everyone else puts their foot on the accelerator. It’s going to cause long term acrimonious feelings if anything, which I think in a world that’s really ticking right now.. we could all do without

blanch152 · 24-01-2019 10:24PM

downcow wrote: »

So what do you think unionists in NI should do?

If unionists were smarter, they would vote to stay in the EU or push for a soft Brexit in the EEA.

Brexit results from a misguided nationalism, not the first time on these islands that some people get overexercised by a nationalist question.

FrancieBrady · 24-01-2019 10:24PM

Folkstonian wrote: »

Well that is kind of why I put it in quotation marks. I honestly don’t know what it isn’t meant to mean, or meant to feel like. All I know is I don’t have any feeling at all on that front.

And I think that’s one of the problems, maybe. It’s not out of malice or ill will. There’s nowhere more interesting on the planet for me than the continent of Europe. But it doesn’t feel like anything other than a foreign place.

And I think having an emotional connection to the idea, or the concept of a European ‘home’ is going to be so important for everyone who is going to be able to accept all of the integration drives. I don’t want England to be trying to pulling up the handbrake whilst everyone else puts their foot on the accelerator. It’s going to cause long term acrimonious feelings if anything, which I think in a world that’s really ticking right now.. we could all do without

You are as European as I am or the aforementioned Greek or french person.

You will still be after Brexit if it happens.

Akrasia · 24-01-2019 10:25PM

downcow wrote: »

I am finding it difficult to engage with this discussion. It seems people from ‘ireland’ can be as offensive as the wish towards Northern Ireland but dare us from the ‘north’ say a word that may be seen as disengeniois or we are reprimanded.
I know you guys are very frustrated about the direction of things but don’t shoot the messenger.
Tbh I am not rattled with being told to go to hell above or the other endless derogatory stuff about the north, our elected reps, our government, etc. But I think there needs to be a wee bit of openness to take it if you give it.
Guess that might be me in trouble again but when we are all gone you will be able to have nice discussions about how awful the brits are without anyone challenging the attitudes

Ah the old 'I'm offended' strategy. The last refuge of someone peddling ideas that cannot be supported by reason or evidence.

blanch152 · 24-01-2019 10:26PM

Folkstonian wrote: »

Well that is kind of why I put it in quotation marks. I honestly don’t know what it isn’t meant to mean, or meant to feel like. All I know is I don’t have any feeling at all on that front.

And I think that’s one of the problems, maybe. It’s not out of malice or ill will. There’s nowhere more interesting on the planet for me than the continent of Europe. But it doesn’t feel like anything other than a foreign place.

And I think having an emotional connection to the idea, or the concept of a European ‘home’ is going to be so important for everyone who is going to be able to accept all of the integration drives. I don’t want England to be trying to pulling up the handbrake whilst everyone else puts their foot on the accelerator. It’s going to cause long term acrimonious feelings if anything, which I think in a world that’s really ticking right now.. we could all do without

None of that means that Brexit is the right idea, certainly not a hard Brexit.

Staying in the EU to delay the project or opting for an EEA relationship which has many of the features of the original common markey are better for the UK than a no-deal Brexit.

First Up · 24-01-2019 10:29PM

Folkstonian wrote:

And I think thatâ€™s one of the problems, maybe. Itâ€™s not out of malice or ill will. Thereâ€™s nowhere more interesting on the planet for me than the continent of Europe. But it doesnâ€™t feel like anything other than a foreign place.

It isn't supposed to feel anything other than foreign. I would hate it if I wasn't thrilled at being somewhere new and different. That has nothing to do with it.

The beauty (magic even) of the EU is that 27 countries of widely varied culture, history, temprament and economic profile have found a way of sharing and cooperating that has taken them from centuries of warfare to peace, prosperity and global economic power.

But you either get that or you don't; maybe that's the real difference between "feeling European" or not.

EdgeCase · 24-01-2019 10:33PM

From my point of view, I just feel like I'm waiting for some kind of big economic bump in the road on 29 March.
It's a ridiculous situation to have voluntarily put themselves and their trade partners in. I mean, we're only over the 2008 recession (in the UK too) and straight into this absolute bloody mess.

It's all very well having people going around being offended and upset because people won't give them respect for deciding to set the self destruct sequence and throw away the escape pods. The rest of us fully realise that we are going to be dealing with potentially very harsh economic realities in a few months time and are rightly rather annoyed about being put in this position.

I'd 100% agree with the Airbus CEO. It is an absolute disgrace. The quality of leadership in the UK at present is abysmal and I think we will be looking back at this later in 2019 with various people being utterly unable to justify why they destroyed their own prosperity.

Also from an Irish perspective, we've seen this kind of selective blindness before. Before the 2008 recession when everything was going to be 'grand' and it was going to be a 'soft landing' and anyone saying otherwise was just a big party pooper.

Been there before. Have the t-shirt and the experience of having an economy crash down around my ears.

It's beyond infuriating to see it happen all over again.

Brexit Discussion Thread VI

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