Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

18-01-2019 05:17PM

I believe this problem was identified before the new commissioner took office.

James Brown · 18-01-2019 05:38PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I believe this problem was identified before the new commissioner took office.

Why were we only told yesterday? He's in office a while now.

18-01-2019 05:45PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Why were we only told yesterday? He's in office a while now.

I suppose not everything that happens in AGS is sent out on a press release. Maybe the reason the press were informed now is because there is a review team set up. No point telling anyone before that I guess!!

Maybe I'm a bit cynical when it comes to commissioners!!

James Brown · 18-01-2019 05:51PM

I firmly believe your average Guard is like your average person. Decent and simply trying to do their job.
The perception, based on past events is that the organisation is a private boys club and rotten. They even turned on their own members during the breathalyzer scandal. It needs dismantling and rebuilding as an organisation.

Captain Obvious · 18-01-2019 07:10PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Why were we only told yesterday? He's in office a while now.

It was reported last year.

SENIOR GARDAÍ HELD a meeting at Garda HQ earlier this week to discuss what sources have described as a “massive failure” in the juvenile prosecution system.
It emerged at a meeting between Garda management and the Policing Authority last month that almost 13,000 criminal offences by young people may have gone unprosecuted due to problems with the logging system.

https://www.thejournal.ie/garda-juvenile-liaison-officer-4146325-Jul2018/

Muahahaha · 18-01-2019 08:27PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I believe this problem was identified before the new commissioner took office.

Its been known about since 2014 but the scale of it was not known until last year. The Sunday Times have been reporting on it a number of years now and none of it happened on Drew Harris' watch, this goes back to Callinan and O'Sullivan who ignored the problem. At least Harris is coming out and showing leadership now by dealing with the issue, he should be comended for that.

Its pretty shocking stuff that over 3,000 victims of crime have not got justice and nor will they ever due to the statute of limitations. Individual Gardai have to take responsibility for more incompetence here. They can cry about bureaucracy all they want but that is part of the job they signed up for. To turn around and say you didn't properly prosecute a rapist because there was too much paperwork is a shocking level of incompetence. As Harris has said there are no excuses and disciplinary action is most certainly warranted.

Captain Obvious · 18-01-2019 08:34PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its been known about since 2014 but the scale of it was not known until last year. The Sunday Times have been reporting on it a number of years now and none of it happened on Drew Harris' watch, this goes back to Callinan and O'Sullivan who ignored the problem. At least Harris is coming out and showing leadership now by dealing with the issue, he should be comended for that.

Its pretty shocking stuff that over 3,000 victims of crime have not got justice and nor will they ever due to the statute of limitations. Individual Gardai have to take responsibility for more incompetence here. They can cry about bureaucracy all they want but that is part of the job they signed up for. To turn around and say you didn't properly prosecute a rapist because there was too much paperwork is a shocking level of incompetence. As Harris has said there are no excuses and disciplinary action is most certainly warranted.

So if a Garda didn't get notice to prosecute someone for a summary case before the case was statute barred, or didn't get notice at all, you think he should take responsibility for it because it's what he signed up for?

blanch152 · 18-01-2019 09:28PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

. At least Harris is coming out and showing leadership now by dealing with the issue, he should be comended for that.

As Harris has said there are no excuses and disciplinary action is most certainly warranted.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Drew Harris blocked relatives of victims from ever getting justice. If that isnt a big red flag then I dont know what is.

Another poster having to backtrack on their comments on Harris when he was appointed.

hotmail.com · 18-01-2019 09:37PM

It's long been suspected that many Gardai are not working hard in their job.

I'd love to see Harris getting the guards out of their cars and into the community. The rank and file will flip if they have to do that.

Muahahaha · 19-01-2019 10:18PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So if a Garda didn't get notice to prosecute someone for a summary case before the case was statute barred, or didn't get notice at all, you think he should take responsibility for it because it's what he signed up for?

A competent Garda will follow up on the status of all their cases, so yes. It doesnt take genius to set a reminder on their phone. Its what people do in work every day of the week, make sure their processes are still moving. You cant account for what other people are doing, only yourself. Im not even sure why this is up for discussion, Harris has already come down hard on the incompetency involved here. No amount of whataboutery will get past the fact that there are over 3,000 victims of crime who will never get justice because some members of AGS didn't do their job right.

drunkmonkey · 19-01-2019 10:25PM

How did they manage not to make any mistake with adult cases or have I missed something?

Captain Obvious · 19-01-2019 10:29PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

A competent Garda will follow up on the status of all their cases, so yes. It doesnt take genius to set a reminder on their phone. Its what people do in work every day of the week, make sure their processes are still moving. You cant account for what other people are doing, only yourself. Im not even sure why this is up for discussion, Harris has already come down hard on the incompetency involved here. No amount of whataboutery will get past the fact that there are over 3,000 victims of crime who will never get justice because some members of AGS didn't do their job right.

You don't seem to understand. You cannot progress a case without that notification. No amount of reminders will change the fact you need authorisation to proceed with a charge or summons.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How did they manage not to make any mistake with adult cases or have I missed something?

Adults don't go through the JLO system.

Muahahaha · 19-01-2019 10:53PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You don't seem to understand. You cannot progress a case without that notification. No amount of reminders will change the fact you need authorisation to proceed with a charge or summons.

Adults don't go through the JLO system.

Chair of the Policing Authority Josephine Feehily doesn't see it that way, she specifically mentioned Gardai not following up

In that context, I want at the outset to put it beyond doubt that the Garda Youth Diversion Programme is a very good programme which had operated in various forms for over 50 years. The Authority has no doubt that it has benefitted many many thousands of children and has had notable successes.

The performance issue which we are examining today relates to children who were deemed unsuitable for the programme and for whom there was no follow up and no consequences. This issue was identified by the Garda Inspectorate in 2014 and the Garda Professional Standards Unit carried out some work in 2017. The Authority has been monitoring your colleagues’ work as you tried to bottom out the extent of the problem and we have had it on our agenda in public meetings in April, June and November last year.

Both Feehily and Harris are clear here, the issue was caused by Gardai not following up. It is a basic level of competence that you move the process along. If you don't hear anything then something is wrong and you follow up. If you don't do that then we get what we have here, instances of Gardai allowing rapists and violent criminals to get off scot free

Muahahaha · 19-01-2019 11:14PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How did they manage not to make any mistake with adult cases or have I missed something?

Looks like they did mess up adult cases too. No doubt this will be the next Garda scandal that will come out:

And now Josephine Feehily is concerned the same problem – of suspects for crimes escaping justice because the system forgets about them – is happening in the adult criminal justice system.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/drew-harris-honeymoon-abruptly-ended-by-humiliating-youth-crime-debacle-1.3761981

Aside from Garda incomptency in not doing their job right members then went on an attempt to cover it up by marking their cases as solved when instead the truth was they were letting criminals off scot free. It is no wonder the CSO don't believe a word out of the mouths of AGS when it comes to crime stats because its already well known they are manipulating them

Through Garda inaction, the cases simply stopped once the children involved were deemed unsuitable for the Garda’s youth diversion programme. Once rejected by the diversion programme, they should have been progressed through the criminal justice system proper. But they weren’t. Nothing happened.

However, despite falling between the cracks, all of the cases were counted as “detected”, or solved, by the Garda. That means the force must now amend the official crime data again.

And on it goes...

Captain Obvious · 19-01-2019 11:24PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Chair of the Policing Authority Josephine Feehily doesn't see it that way, she specifically mentioned Gardai not following up

Both Feehily and Harris are clear here, the issue was caused by Gardai not following up. It is a basic level of competence that you move the process along. If you don't hear anything then something is wrong and you follow up. If you don't do that then we get what we have here, instances of Gardai allowing rapists and violent criminals to get off scot free

Again you are assigning individual responsibility where none has been shown.

RustyNut · 19-01-2019 11:29PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Again you are assigning individual responsibility where none has been shown.

Individual responsibility is something that seems to be lacking at all levels in AGS alright.

Muahahaha · 19-01-2019 11:43PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Again you are assigning individual responsibility where none has been shown.

Its pretty obvious where responsibility lies for this latest scandal of Garda incompetence. If you think otherwise then perhaps you should write to Drew Harris and Joesphine Feehily and tell them they have got it all wrong.

tomoliver · 19-01-2019 11:49PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

It's long been suspected that many Gardai are not working hard in their job.

I'd love to see Harris getting the guards out of their cars and into the community. The rank and file will flip if they have to do that.

Is there truth in this

How do the numbers here compare internationally

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 11:34AM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its pretty obvious where responsibility lies for this latest scandal of Garda incompetence. If you think otherwise then perhaps you should write to Drew Harris and Joesphine Feehily and tell them they have got it all wrong.

Not their fault you're putting your own interpretation on it.

blanch152 · 20-01-2019 03:48PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

A competent Garda will follow up on the status of all their cases, so yes. It doesnt take genius to set a reminder on their phone. Its what people do in work every day of the week, make sure their processes are still moving. You cant account for what other people are doing, only yourself. Im not even sure why this is up for discussion, Harris has already come down hard on the incompetency involved here. No amount of whataboutery will get past the fact that there are over 3,000 victims of crime who will never get justice because some members of AGS didn't do their job right.

You expect a police force to be run by reminders on a phone?

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 03:51PM

blanch152 wrote: »

You expect a police force to be run by reminders on a phone?

It seems he wants Gardaí to ignore the JLO process completely just so they can say they did something.

Muahahaha · 20-01-2019 04:19PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Not their fault you're putting your own interpretation on it.

Tell us then your interpretation on it and how it squares with the statements of Drew Harris and Joesphine Feehily. If you're claiming they have got it all wrong and individual Gardai do not have any responsibility for progressing their cases then you might explain that in depth.

Also if you are claiming this as some sort of systems break down how then did the majority of the force not face the same problems? 25% of the force have been earmarked for investigation for inaction of prosecuting crime. The majority of the force seemed to manage the system just fine but this cohort couldnt match them.

blanch152 wrote: »

You expect a police force to be run by reminders on a phone?

Well its pretty clear that some Gardai were not following up on their cases which then became statute barred. If they find that task difficult then there is plenty of tools and technology available for any employee to make their tasks streamlined and ensure that cock ups like this don't happen. People in the private sector use these tools day in day out. If you're not using them then you're behind the curve. It doesnt take a genius to create a simple spreadsheet with reminders of specific events built in to it, this is basic stuff in any workplace. And if they have an aversion to using simple technology then theres another way- keep a diary and write notes under the date by which prosecutions must be followed up. Rocket science it ain't.

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 04:33PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Tell us then your interpretation on it and how it squares with the statements of Drew Harris and Joesphine Feehily. If you're claiming they have got it all wrong and individual Gardai do not have any responsibility for progressing their cases then you might explain that in depth.

Both of them seem to recognise that it was a system failure.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Also if you are claiming this as some sort of systems break down how then did the majority of the force not face the same problems? 25% of the force have been earmarked for investigation for inaction of prosecuting crime. The majority of the force seemed to manage the system just fine but this cohort couldnt match them.

Plenty of possibilities there. The most obvious being that the others weren't involved in prosecuting juveniles or that the juveniles they dealt with were accepted by the JLO scheme.

Muahahaha · 20-01-2019 05:25PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Both of them seem to recognise that it was a system failure.

Can you link to where they say it was a systems failure? Harris said that it was due to Garda inaction and not following up on their cases. If its a system failure why is he setting up an investigation into malpractice by some members of the Gardai?

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 05:51PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can you link to where they say it was a systems failure? Harris said that it was due to Garda inaction and not following up on their cases. If its a system failure why is he setting up an investigation into malpractice by some members of the Gardai?

It's in your own quote above. Presumably the enquiry is to identify any which were not as a result of the overall issue.

Muahahaha · 20-01-2019 06:18PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's in your own quote above. Presumably the enquiry is to identify any which were not as a result of the overall issue.

Again where did Harris and Feehily say it was a systems failure, can you specifically link those words leaving their lips.

blanch152 · 20-01-2019 06:18PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Well its pretty clear that some Gardai were not following up on their cases which then became statute barred. If they find that task difficult then there is plenty of tools and technology available for any employee to make their tasks streamlined and ensure that cock ups like this don't happen. People in the private sector use these tools day in day out. If you're not using them then you're behind the curve. It doesnt take a genius to create a simple spreadsheet with reminders of specific events built in to it, this is basic stuff in any workplace. And if they have an aversion to using simple technology then theres another way- keep a diary and write notes under the date by which prosecutions must be followed up. Rocket science it ain't.

You would be the first to complain about data protection breaches if a single Garda put a single detail about a case on his private phone.

I don't think you understand a single thing about the restrictions in the way that the public service, and particularly the Gardai, has to operate.

Muahahaha · 20-01-2019 06:42PM

blanch152 wrote: »

You would be the first to complain about data protection breaches if a single Garda put a single detail about a case on his private phone.

I don't think you understand a single thing about the restrictions in the way that the public service, and particularly the Gardai, has to operate.

So a pen and a diary are of no use now?

And how was it the other members of the force were able to navigate the system whereas this cohort were not?

And maybe you might explain these restrictions in the public service that allow rapists and violent criminals to get off scot free?

Captain Obvious · 20-01-2019 07:09PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Again where did Harris and Feehily say it was a systems failure, can you specifically link those words leaving their lips.

Post 1845, your post above. You quote Feehily saying "escaping justice because the system forgets about them".

Muahahaha wrote: »

So a pen and a diary are of no use now?

And how was it the other members of the force were able to navigate the system whereas this cohort were not?

And maybe you might explain these restrictions in the public service that allow rapists and violent criminals to get off scot free?

You still seem to be having difficulty grasping the process. You cannot proceed without authorisation from the JLO. It doesn't matter how many reminders or diary entries you have. The prosecution needs to be authorised, first by the JLO, then by the DPP. If the Garda does not receive a notice to prosecute from the JLO he will naturally assume the case has been dealt with by them because he can do nothing else.

McMurphy · 20-01-2019 07:57PM

Why are people ignoring the big elephant in the corner?

It's all very well blaming "system failures" etc.

If this were merely a case of systems failing, why did Drew Harris have to publicly apologise to the victims of these crimes, calling it a "humiliating professional failure" for the force.

An even bigger elephant is the fact that a good few members have already been disciplined for their failings here.

Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

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