Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Chips Lovell

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I'll reopen the thread now.

McMurphy

Drew Harris showing us he means business.

Assistant Commissioner Fintan Fanning has been suspended from duty pending the outcome of an investigation by the Garda Sh Ombudsman Commission (Gsoc).

Assistant Commissioner.....

Will he be shuffled off into retirement one wonders?

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Drew Harris showing us he means business.

Assistant Commissioner Fintan Fanning has been suspended from duty pending the outcome of an investigation by the Garda Sh Ombudsman Commission (Gsoc).

Assistant Commissioner.....

Will he be shuffled off into retirement one wonders?

he has 39 years. he's only there because he wants to be.


In any case, I'm not sure a commissioner who reacts based on the media response is something to be happy for.

Commissioner Harris acted swiftly following media reports that the officer remained in his post amid the Gsoc inquiry.


It is understood the Gsoc investigation was launched in November on foot of allegations made by another member of the force, who is of garda rank.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

he has 39 years. he's only there because he wants to be.

As was Callinan - who also retired.

In any case, I'm not sure a commissioner who reacts based on the media response is something to be happy for.

Did he react before or after the media response though?

Johnny Dogs

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Did he react before or after the media response though?

After.

McMurphy

bubblypop wrote: »

After.

Source?

Johnny Dogs

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Source?

Every news media that reported that this particular officer was under investigation & still working, only a few days ago. Days after this was reported, the officer was suspended.
Seems the commissioner is swayed by the media

Rubberchikken

if hes not swayed by protocol or morals maybe some outside influence is necessary.

Captain Obvious

Rubberchikken wrote: »

if hes not swayed by protocol or morals maybe some outside influence is necessary.

In the head of a police force?

McMurphy

Jeez, this puts an end to the oftimes trotted out spiel that it's a few bad apples within the force that are failing to do the job properly.

1 in 4 is a shocking statistic.

Honeymoons over for Drew, and no mistake.

3,500 gardai investigated as youth crime scandal exposed

Garda Commissioner Drew Harris has called the failure to prosecute 3,000 youth offenders a "humiliating professional failure" for the force.
He also apologised to all those who were victims of crimes committed by those who were never prosecuted.

An internal report into the force's youth referral scheme found that 7,894 cases where youths were deemed not to be suitable for the diversion programme were not appropriately dealt with over a seven-year period.

About a quarter of the force's officers were involved in the cases, it revealed.

"It's profoundly humiliating for us as an organisation," Mr Harris said yesterday.

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Jeez, this puts an end to the oftimes trotted out spiel that it's a few bad apples within the force that are failing to do the job properly.

1 in 4 is a shocking statistic.

Honeymoons over for Drew, and no mistake.

3,500 gardai investigated as youth crime scandal exposed

I see you've already decided on the guilt of all the Gardaí involved. That's some fast judgement, Johnny. Well done.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I see you've already decided on the guilt of all the Gardanvolved. That's some fast judgement, Johnny. Well done.

By quoting fact (that 25% of them are to be investigated) isn't passing judgement at all or predetermination of their guilt or innocence.

If you have an issue with any negativity surrounding this, perhaps direct it at Drew Harris.

Drew Harris wrote:

has called the failure to prosecute 3,000 youth offenders a "humiliating professional failure" for the force.

Drew Harris wrote:

"It's profoundly humiliating for us as an organisation,"

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

By quoting fact (that 25% of them are to be investigated) isn't passing judgement at all or predetermination of their guilt or innocence.

You're right but this does.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Jeez, this puts an end to the oftimes trotted out spiel that it's a few bad apples within the force that are failing to do the job properly.

Completely disregards all the reporting on what actually caused the issue.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You're right but this does.



Completely disregards all the reporting on what actually caused the issue.

That's not me prejudging their guilt or not, that's me stating that the fact one in four needs to be investigated to begin with is a thundering disgrace.

Like it or not, this is a sizeable chunk of our police force that needs to be investigated because (an internal report found)

were not appropriately dealt with over a seven-year period.

Some of this is actually unbelievable stuff to read through.

One incident of rape, one case of child neglect and one incident of a sexual offence were among those cases not properly progressed.

You seem to want to imply that I'm already judging the guards involved in these cases, but I'm not, that's not my job, but just to recap the review found.

More than 158,521 youth referrals were examined during the review.

It was found that in 16,877 cases there was no prosecution. A total of 7,894, had not been properly progressed by gardai and another 4,851 were dropped due to there being insufficient evidence.

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

That's not me prejudging their guilt or not,

Yes it does. The phrase "puts an end to" is fairly final is it not? It's pretty clear you've decided that the individual Gardaí are all to blame which is why you've mentioned the "spiel" that it's only "a few bad apples". Not sure why you are denying it but I'm sure others can make up their mind on what you meant.


As to the issue in question. It was an inevitable consequence of the change they made to the system. It was poorly planned and poorly implemented.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Yes it does. The phrase "puts an end to" is fairly final is it not? It's pretty clear you've decided that the individual Gardare all to blame which is why you've mentioned the "spiel" that it's only "a few bad apples". Not sure why you are denying it but I'm sure others can make up their mind on what you meant.


As to the issue in question. It was an inevitable consequence of the change they made to the system. It was poorly planned and poorly implemented.

You keep clinging to that few bad apples line like some virtual security blanket if it makes you feel better.

I stand over my post.

If 25% of the entire force need to be investigated, possibly disciplined, and if a review found that 8000 cases weren't properly progressed in a seven year period, that's undeniably a large number of cases and members of the force , not a small amount of bad apples.

Even if these investigations result in 50% of gaurds being found to have funked up, that's 12.5% incompetence.

What's deemed an appropriate level of incompetence within as states police force?

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You keep clinging to that few bad apples line like some virtual security blanket if it makes you feel better.

I stand over my post.

If 25% of the entire force need to be investigated, possibly disciplined, and if a review found that 8000 cases weren't properly progressed in a seven year period, that's undeniably a large number of cases and members of the force , not a small amount of bad apples.

Even if these investigations result in 50% of gaurds being found to have funked up, that's 12.5% incompetence.

What's deemed an appropriate level of incompetence within as states police force?

And if no Gardaí are disciplined it'll be a cover-up as opposed to a system failure I suppose?

Auguste Comte

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You keep clinging to that few bad apples line like some virtual security blanket if it makes you feel better.

I stand over my post.

If 25% of the entire force need to be investigated, possibly disciplined, and if a review found that 8000 cases weren't properly progressed in a seven year period, that's undeniably a large number of cases and members of the force , not a small amount of bad apples.

Even if these investigations result in 50% of gaurds being found to have funked up, that's 12.5% incompetence.

What's deemed an appropriate level of incompetence within as states police force?

And if no Gardaí are disciplined it'll be a cover-up as opposed to a system failure I suppose?

Who is investing them?

Captain Obvious

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Who is investing them?

Everyone it seems.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I see you've already decided on the guilt of all the Gardanvolved. That's some fast judgement, Johnny. Well done.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

And if no Gardare disciplined it'll be a cover-up as opposed to a system failure I suppose?

It seems someone is jumping to conclusions alright.

Captain Obvious

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

It seems someone is jumping to conclusions alright.

I figured you wouldn't answer.

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

That's not me prejudging their guilt or not,

In fairness, you said they "[failed] to do [their] job properly" which is a prejudgement of guilt.

McMurphy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I figured you wouldn't answer.

You figured i wouldn't give s question with two predetermined loaded answers any entertainment at all correctly.

Well done.

RustyNut

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Who is investing them?

It's grand, seems they are to be investigated by their colleagues.

Garda Commissioner Drew Harris has directed senior officers to examine 3,400 garda around a quarter of all members — to see if disciplinary issues arise for failing to prosecute almost 8,000 criminal offences

AGS investigating AGS, what could go wrong?

Judge Peter Smithwick has unleashed a blistering attack on the Garda - accusing it of prizing loyalty over honesty.

The tribunal chairman said he was depressed and disheartened that a culture still exists in the force where its reputation takes priority over everything else.

McMurphy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

In fairness, you said they "[failed] to do [their] job properly" which is a prejudgement of guilt.

[An internal report (by presumably AGS) found so,

An internal report into the force's youth referral scheme found that 7,894 cases where youths were deemed not to be suitable for the diversion programme were not appropriately dealt with over a seven-year period.

resulting in the commissioner having to apologise.

Garda Commissioner Drew Harris has called the failure to prosecute 3,000 youth offenders a "humiliating professional failure" for the force.

Unless the report and Commissioner meant the opposite of what they say, but I'll go out on a limb here and presume they don't.

Captain Obvious

RustyNut wrote: »

It's grand, seems they are to be investigated by their colleagues.




AGS investigating AGS, what could go wrong?

Hasn't there already been an investigation by the Inspectorate and Policing Authority?

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

[An internal report (by presumably AGS) found so,

resulting in the commissioner having to apologise.



Unless the report and Commissioner meant the opposite of what they say, but I'll go out on a limb here and presume they don't.

You're still assuming individual responsibility on the part of the members without any evidence.

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

[An internal report (by presumably AGS) found so,

resulting in the commissioner having to apologise.

Nowhere does that say they failed to do their jobs properly.

Unless the report and Commissioner meant the opposite of what they say, but I'll go out on a limb here and presume they don't.

Since you've seen the report do you mind linking to it?

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

This would be what I'm thinking also Tayto, he's now tainted/damaged goods before he even takes up the role.

Another fluster cuck for the powers that be.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Jeez, this puts an end to the oftimes trotted out spiel that it's a few bad apples within the force that are failing to do the job properly.

1 in 4 is a shocking statistic.

Honeymoons over for Drew, and no mistake.

3,500 gardai investigated as youth crime scandal exposed

Let me see now, I have read the linked article in detail.

A couple of things to take out from it. Firstly, we have a new Commissioner in place who is taking steps to examine practices from the past and reform them. I think the man is owed a bit of an apology from those who said he was tainted goods. Well done to Drew Harris and some well-deserved humbling for some of what was written about him.

Secondly, there is no suggestion in the article that all those gardai are guilty. The circumstances are being investigated. Some pertinent quotes include "Mr Harris said the issue was especially prevalent at busy stations dealing with high workloads" and "Mr Harris said he hoped the revelations would not take away from the valuable work done in the youth diversion programme and preventing crime.".

This indicates that there may well have been systemic issues arising from the programme and also from the heavy workload. If the programme placed an emphasis on rehabilitation and social work rather than prosecution, that creates a culture where the prosecution of such offences is seen as a lower priority and inevitably in a busy scenario, they won't be prioritised. That is a cultural issue rather than an individual culpability issue.

Posters need to distinguish between cultural issues and individual labelling. To give another example, you can criticise a culture of criminality within the travelling community without labelling all travellers as criminals. It seems that in this debate, some are too anxious to label most gardai as corrupt/criminal/incompetent and are rushing to judgement without examining or considering the wider cultural issues.

Fair comment on this is that Drew Harris appears to be tackling the culture within the gardai and dealing with the negative aspects of it. Fair play to him, I would hope we would all agree.

Captain Obvious

blanch152 wrote: »

Let me see now, I have read the linked article in detail.

A couple of things to take out from it. Firstly, we have a new Commissioner in place who is taking steps to examine practices from the past and reform them. I think the man is owed a bit of an apology from those who said he was tainted goods. Well done to Drew Harris and some well-deserved humbling for some of what was written about him.

Secondly, there is no suggestion in the article that all those gardai are guilty. The circumstances are being investigated. Some pertinent quotes include "Mr Harris said the issue was especially prevalent at busy stations dealing with high workloads" and "Mr Harris said he hoped the revelations would not take away from the valuable work done in the youth diversion programme and preventing crime.".

This indicates that there may well have been systemic issues arising from the programme and also from the heavy workload. If the programme placed an emphasis on rehabilitation and social work rather than prosecution, that creates a culture where the prosecution of such offences is seen as a lower priority and inevitably in a busy scenario, they won't be prioritised. That is a cultural issue rather than an individual culpability issue.

Posters need to distinguish between cultural issues and individual labelling. To give another example, you can criticise a culture of criminality within the travelling community without labelling all travellers as criminals. It seems that in this debate, some are too anxious to label most gardai as corrupt/criminal/incompetent and are rushing to judgement without examining or considering the wider cultural issues.

Fair comment on this is that Drew Harris appears to be tackling the culture within the gardai and dealing with the negative aspects of it. Fair play to him, I would hope we would all agree.

It's the benefit of having an outsider. Don't share any of the blame for previous failings.

James Brown

For me any guilt on the part of individuals is far less important than accepting and recognising the Garda, as an institution is seemingly, by all accounts, incompetent and rotten. I am grateful they brought in an outsider. I said all along it was the only way to go.