Deep Space Nine Runthrough

_Kaiser_ · 09-01-2019 03:48PM

pixelburp wrote: »

It's 1993, not the Renaissance; 2 years after the controversy of Anita Hill in American politics at that, so don't accept any glib excuse that sexual harassment wasn't something that existed in the zeitgeist of US / western culture. It was relevant then, it's relevant now.

Bashir was a creep in season 1. More specifically, the writers made a bags of the 'romantic gesture' tropes, at best laying them on too thick and clumsily, and the fact it was quickly mothballed probably spoke to the writers realising this themselves.

That sounds more like bad writing than any kind of underlying acceptance of sexual harassment in prime time TV

I think you're looking at it through the lens of 2019's hypersensitivity and the apparent need to find offence in everything - past or present. Make sure you don't start reviewing the likes of Benny Hill or On the Buses.

Or, you could just accept that the show was made in a different time, in a different COUNTRY, with different standards and tensions in play and that they didn't always get everything right then, never mind 25 years later.

pixelburp · 09-01-2019 04:03PM

I never claimed the writing was 'accepting' of sexual harassment, nobody did. That's not the point being discussed at all, merely that however it happened - and it probably was accident - Bashir came off in Season 1 like a sex creep. And as I said already, 1993 is not so prehistoric that these issues didn't exist in the public domain.

But if you're going to made sarky patronising dismissals about hypersensitivity, then there's nothing to discuss and we can leave it there.

Inviere · 09-01-2019 05:08PM

pixelburp wrote: »

And as I said already, 1993 is not so prehistoric that these issues didn't exist in the public domain.

Of course they existed, it's only 25 years, hell, that's existed since the dawn of mankind. However, 25 years is a LOT of time for societal trends and norms to change, and they have, rightly and wrongly. Rightly so because we've highlighted behavior that's no longer acceptable. Wrongly, because people are very quick to find offence these days...like seriously quick (and that's a general observation, not aimed at anyone here).

As I said previously, and as mentioned by Kaiser, these are more a failure of writing than anything else. The writers weren't actively trying to write Bashir as a creep, they just made a cack-handed attempt at whatever it was they were going for.

odyssey06 · 09-01-2019 05:16PM

In "If Wishes Were Horses", a 'fantasy' version of Jadzia appears from Julian's imagination. That would have been his 'opportunity' ala Barclay to take advantage of a scifi situation. But he doesn't, whether through 'chivalry' or bafflement \ embarrassment about the situation...
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/If_Wishes_Were_Horses_(episode)

Inviere · 09-01-2019 05:19PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

In "If Wishes Were Horses", a 'fantasy' version of Jadzia appears from Julian's imagination. That would have been his 'opportunity' ala Barclay to take advantage of a scifi situation. But he doesn't, whether through 'chivalry' or bafflement \ embarrassment about the situation...
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/If_Wishes_Were_Horses_(episode)

Indeed, similarly when the computer thought it was a good idea to have the simulated Leah Brahms give Geordi a shoulder massage, he rejected it.

IvySlayer · 09-01-2019 06:16PM

What about when Quark changes his gender and is being chased around the room possibly to avoid being sexually assaulted.

Disturbing episode, didn't the writers ever think...no? This is terrible!

09-01-2019 06:33PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

What about when Quark changes his gender and is being chased around the room possibly to avoid being sexually assaulted.

Disturbing episode, didn't the writers ever think...no? This is terrible!

No that does not exist, not a chance, never happened

Inviere · 09-01-2019 07:25PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

What about when Quark changes his gender and is being chased around the room possibly to avoid being sexually assaulted.

Disturbing episode, didn't the writers ever think...no? This is terrible!

I suppose coming from a species that doesn't allow the females to wear cloths, work, earn money, and who has to pre-chew the food for the males...that episode didn't strike me as anything out of the ordinary for Ferengi

09-01-2019 07:54PM

I think i actually skipped that epsiode or at least half of it

pixelburp · 09-01-2019 07:55PM

I suspect they were trying for some version of "some like it hot" and got a little lost along the way. The gender stuff with the Ferenghi was always interesting albeit played with broad, sometimes comedic strokes. "Profit and Lace" was just infantile.

IvySlayer · 09-01-2019 08:14PM

Inviere wrote: »

I suppose coming from a species that doesn't allow the females to wear cloths, work, earn money, and who has to pre-chew the food for the males...that episode didn't strike me as anything out of the ordinary for Ferengi

It wasn't the premise.

They tried to make it funny. It wasn't

Inviere · 09-01-2019 08:15PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

It wasn't the premise.

They tried to make it funny. It wasn't

I never found it funny either, but it didn't strike me as odd or stand out behavior for the Ferengi given what we already knew about them.

Evade · 09-01-2019 10:22PM

The weirdest thing about that episode was, and I'm not trying to pile on the Bashir bashing but, him performing what sounded like a complete sex change on a whim. The Ferengi being creepy and treating women like objects and pretty poorly in general is par for the course for them.

AMKC · 10-01-2019 12:16AM

IvySlayer wrote: »

What about when Quark changes his gender and is being chased around the room possibly to avoid being sexually assaulted.

Disturbing episode, didn't the writers ever think...no? This is terrible!

I had no problem with that episode and find it quite funny too.

10-01-2019 12:58AM

Oh it's bad, real bad. Just the execution, it's so forced.

Could have been a good view into sexual harassment but the whole thing with Quark threatening a staff member at the start set the tone all wrong

brainfreeze · 10-01-2019 03:54PM

Is this thread really turning into a retroactive #metoo in space? :mad:

pixelburp · 10-01-2019 04:03PM

No, we're just discussing how poorly some of the scripts have aged. It does happen, and it is possible to have a chat without freaking out and pearl-clutching over #metoo. And frankly, it insults those trying to make the point.

brainfreeze · 10-01-2019 04:05PM

:rolleyes:

I'll come back when you are finished.

TheIrishGrover · 11-01-2019 01:04PM

AFAIK even the writers of the Ferengi episode are embarassed about that episode and were so at the time

As for Bashir being creepy in the first series regarding Dax: I agree, I remember thinking it at the time. However, as had been pointed out, you have to take into account when these were written. It's not an excuse, it's simply a fact.

Everyone pats themselves on the back about damning "Friends" nowadays (Again, another show I found offensive at the time). Everyone (rightly) points out the lack of any diversity in a series supposedly set in one of the most diverse cities in America and it's attitude towards homosexuality etc.

Everyone says "Oh, we are so much more enlightened these days" Yet what is the number one comedy on at the moment? The Big Bang Theory. Where, apparently it's fine to make fun of people obviously on the Autism spectrum and make fun of people interested in science. It's so popular that it has TWO shows making fun of people with Autism.

Wonderful how far we have advanced. Aren't we great.

TheValeyard · 11-01-2019 05:14PM

AMKC wrote: »

I had no problem with that episode and find it quite funny too.

Yeah I quite enjoyed it.

It's the Ferengi, what else do you expect from them?

Inviere · 11-01-2019 05:19PM

^^ agreed. The modern trend of examining old shows through the lens of today, is bloody painful. Friends under the spotlight now is just eye rolling material. Diversity isn’t worth a dime if it’s forced. I still catch an odd rerun of Friends if I’m out visiting and it happens to be on tv, it’s fine, it’s an old show, it wasn’t written to cause offense. We’ve moved on, static recordings on film obviously can’t move on with us. People need to get over themselves, and drop the virtue signaling.

pixelburp · 11-01-2019 06:40PM

Don't exaggerate; retrospective opinions on old media weren't suddenly invented with the coming of social media, nor is anyone here virtue signalling - what's bloody painful for me is kneejerk sarcasm about "virtue signalling" over an otherwise friendly discussion about some narrative wobbles in DS9. That we should "get over ourselves", that's just insult by proxy

Things age. Times change, and what once was fresh becomes stale, trailblazing derivative, or indeed was once an accepted trope becomes insulting or even bigoted. That's just how it goes, and why people stopped reading "Uncle Tom's Cabin" years ago, or "Song of the South" is conveniently abandoned by Disney, or indeed why you don't see repeats of the Black & White Minstrel show on TV.

They were products of their time, made with earnest decency - and in the Disney example, very catchy music (zippity doo dah!) - but they were all still racist as hell. But it's perfectly possible to have artistic dissonance going on, to discuss the negative while acknowledging the time they gestated from. It's not binary, it doesn't disappear the positive, and it sure ain't 'virtue signalling' to call these things out either.

And no, I'm not saying Bashir's early days are on a par with the above examples either, just before anyone has a conniption; simply that in retrospect his character was a total sh*t, then got better by smoothing out the rough edge, but in the interim? Yeah, that early obsession with Jadzia came off really badly - and simply sniffing "oh well that was 20 years ago stop virtue signalling" doesn't preclude both viewpoints.

Inviere · 11-01-2019 06:55PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Don't exaggerate; retrospective opinions on old media weren't suddenly invented with the coming of social media, nor is anyone here virtue signalling - what's bloody painful for me is kneejerk sarcasm about "virtue signalling" over an otherwise friendly discussion about some narrative wobbles in DS9. That we should "get over ourselves", that's just insult by proxy

Christ almighty, for not the first time, im speaking of general trends in online society here, im not singlehandedly pointing the finger at any posters in this thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and nobody is about to be attacked for having one. We don’t all have to agree though. We were saying Friends seems to be a fashionable target these days, for bloggers etc to retrospectively flex their virtues. It is virtue signaling, because they’re selectively and willfully ignoring any and all context in such shows, and shouting from the rooftops about how offensive it is these days. I personally find that so immature for an adult to do. Friends, DS9, whatever popular show you want from the 80s/90s, people are whinging about how they’re now offensive, or homophobic, or sexist, or not diverse enough. It’s like people don’t understand that now wasn’t always now.

pixelburp · 11-01-2019 07:10PM

Inviere wrote: »

Christ almighty, for not the first time, im speaking of general trends in online society here, im not singlehandedly pointing the finger at any posters in this thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and nobody is about to be attacked for having one. We don’t all have to agree though. We were saying Friends seems to be a fashionable target these days, for bloggers etc to retrospectively flex their virtues. It is virtue signaling, because they’re selectively and willfully ignoring any and all context in such shows, and shouting from the rooftops about how offensive it isn’t these days. Friends, DS9, whatever popular show you want from the 80s/90s, people are whimging about how they’re now offensive.

Is there a general trend out there though, trying to rebadge DS9 as offensive? Cos that's the first I heard, not trying to be a smart arse either. Am curious.

Bashir version 1 and Profit & Lace were blips in an otherwise stellar show - in fact the only consistent online narrative I've witnessed has been retrospective, effusive praise - heck, it's kinda the hipster Trek these days, that one nobody really cared for the first time around, but is now the dark horse for 'best Trek' . So that's why I presume you're having a go at people here - I've literally read no millennials whinging, just the opposite.

I've seen the Friends stuff and seemed mostly like clickbait trying to get the very reaction you're expressing, but never seen anything negative about DS9 - bar the obvious 'top 10 worst episodes' kinda chatter.

11-01-2019 07:28PM

Ah hell, can't we drop this one?

pixelburp · 11-01-2019 07:30PM

True.

So what's everyones favourite morn quote?

Inviere · 11-01-2019 07:40PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Is there a general trend out there though, trying to rebadge DS9 as offensive? Cos that's the first I heard, not trying to be a smart arse either.

Bashir version 1 and Profit & Lace were blips in an otherwise stellar show - in fact the only consistent online narrative I've witnessed has been retrospective, effusive praise - heck, it's kinda the hipster Trek these days, that one nobody really cared for the first time around, but is now the dark horse for 'best Trek' . So that's why I presume you're having a go at people here - I've literally read no millennials whinging, just the opposite.

I've seen the Friends stuff and seemed mostly like clickbait trying to get the very reaction you're expressing, but never seen anything negative about DS9 - bar the obvious 'top 10 worst episodes' kinda chatter.

I wouldn’t say there’s a sustained trend against DS9 per se, but it hasn’t escaped the hypersensitive all seeing eye either. Google “Deep Space Nine Offensive” and you’ll get some hits (military offensives notwithstanding

). I suppose being a near 30 year fan of Star Trek, I get a bit protective of it at times, and hate to see it fall victim to irrational hypersensitivity. That’s not a get outta jail free card in terms of the points raised, I take the points about Julian, I take the points re Profit and Lace (even though I’ve no issue with the episode barring it being a bit silly)...the writers goosed up is all.

JayRoc · 11-01-2019 09:04PM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

, another show I found offensive at the time

Friends. You found Friends offensive.

Friends.

Jesus wept.

TheIrishGrover · 12-01-2019 12:19AM

Actually I know you posted the Morn thing to change the subject but again, it shows how great the characters in DS9 were. Even Morn had more character than anyone in Enterprise and anyone apart from the doctor in Voyager. (I'm so glad he didn't speak in the last episode as rumours said he would)

12-01-2019 12:23AM

i was excited when the doctor showed up in the tng movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIslsp2WjDs

Deep Space Nine Runthrough

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