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Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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    #392
    Kidkinobe
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭Kidkinobe


    LotharIngum wrote: »
    Jesus wept. Lets just agree that have solved the housing crisis and are going to police short term rentals, and we are all shaking in our boots at the enforcement record of yourself and the powers that be and leave it at that will we.
    I think you have blinkers on, there are many reasons for people to comply with the rules, insurance will be a main factor, if your property has a permission by the local council to be used as an Airbnb for 3 months, and you drag it out for 4 months and on that 4th month, someone burns it down, your insurance is void, or if someone falls over and cracks their skull on the fire hearth due to a rug, you are responsible and insurance companies will walk away...


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    #393
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    LotharIngum wrote: »
    Have you seen anything that's happened in the last 4 years or so since Simon Coveny started with the tinkering? Well I refer you to the road so far.

    Way to ignore the question. How will taking properties that are currently being used for AirBnB and putting them back in the residential market for sale or rent going to make things worse?


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    #394
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Way to ignore the question. How will taking properties that are currently being used for AirBnB and putting them back in the residential market for sale or rent going to make things worse?

    They left those markets for a reason.

    The reason for leaving hasn't disappeared. Its actually worse now.


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    #395
    LotharIngum
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭LotharIngum


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    Way to ignore the question. How will taking properties that are currently being used for AirBnB and putting them back in the residential market for sale or rent going to make things worse?

    I have answered your question. Open your eyes. That's all you have to do.

    Nothing I say will convince you if you remain blind to the story so far.

    And maybe to start on the road to enlightenment you could read this thread again.


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    #396
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    beauf wrote: »
    They left those markets for a reason.

    The reason for leaving hasn't disappeared. Its actually worse now.

    So, what happens? The properties just disappear off the face of the earth?
    LotharIngum wrote: »
    I have answered your question. Open your eyes. That's all you have to do.

    Nothing I say will convince you if you remain blind to the story so far.

    And maybe to start on the road to enlightenment you could read this thread again.

    Right back at you.


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    #397
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    How will returning some properties to the rental/sales market make things worse? These are properties that are currently not available for rent or sale. After these regulations come into place, they will be. More housing stock for the people that live in this country. How is that going to make things worse?
    It will be a result that would be worse than what would happen if the rent controls were lifted. Gov intervention has made it worse for renters.


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    #398
    Ginger83
    Registered Users Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    LotharIngum wrote: »
    You mean like driving on the motorway on a provisional license? I did that for a few years alright. So did everyone I know. Guess ow many I know who got caught despite all the warnings? None.
    Scare stories wont work. Enforcement large scale will, and we know that aint happening ever. All this is is window dressing. The government don't care what happens at all. They just care what you THINK they are doing.

    Yep same here, have an old car that does a mile to a school up a back lane twice a day. Insurance has trebled so we don't pay it anymore....f**k em!

    Plenty of ways to rent without Airbnb.


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    #399
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    So, what happens? The properties just disappear off the face of the earth?.

    Well if you can't find them on any website to buy or rent have they disappeared or perhaps they've done something else with them.

    I know quite a few people who just left properties empty for decades and used them for family and friends visiting and just let them appreciate in value over time.


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    #400
    An_Toirpin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭An_Toirpin


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    So, what happens? The properties just disappear off the face of the earth?



    Right back at you.
    Decades of academic studies on the topic have shown that housing regulation such as rent controls can lead to dereliction and loss of housing stock. Why does the Left think that this time it is different, and the adverse consequences of Gov intervention can be avoided...


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    #401
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,427 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    So, what happens? The properties just disappear off the face of the earth?



    Right back at you.

    People can only rent a room for 90 days. Many ain’t rent it any more than that because with Airbnb they can pick and choose the dates and duration people stay for. They don’t want a 7 or 5 day a week tenant


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    #402
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The issue is will these measures help the crisis. Everytime we are told they will. Everytime the crisis gets worse.

    Is like Father Ted tapping away at the car.

    What is needed is measures to increase supply of new appropriate housing that is in short supply.

    If these Airbnb go back into the rental market will they be at affordable rents. If sold will they be at affordable prices. Because that's what's needed. I'm not sure that will happen.


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    #403
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Kidkinobe wrote: »
    I think you have blinkers on, there are many reasons for people to comply with the rules, insurance will be a main factor, if your property has a permission by the local council to be used as an Airbnb for 3 months, and you drag it out for 4 months and on that 4th month, someone burns it down, your insurance is void, or if someone falls over and cracks their skull on the fire hearth due to a rug, you are responsible and insurance companies will walk away...

    This just makes absolutely no sense. I have insurance for Airbnb in addition to a standard policy, all done though Kidd insurance. The insurance isn’t specific to Airbnb, it is for short lets. Just because the rules on short lets change doesn’t invalidate the insurance just as changes to speed limit/ alcohol consumption laws doesn’t negate your car inurance. I doubt the insurance companies will know how many people stayed in your house. I know you would like to think that there is be complete compliance, but you have to look at the bigger picture. The odds still favour the Host enormously due to the difficulty with gathering proof for a prosecution. I’m not condoning it, merely stating what has already been published in the media based on legal opinion.


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    #404
    Kidkinobe
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭Kidkinobe


    Dav010 wrote: »
    This just makes absolutely no sense. I have insurance for Airbnb in addition to a standard policy, all done though Kidd insurance. The insurance isn’t specific to Airbnb, it is for short lets. Just because the rules on short lets change doesn’t invalidate the insurance just as changes to speed limit/ alcohol consumption laws doesn’t negate your car inurance. I doubt the insurance companies will know how many people stayed in your house. I know you would like to think that there is be complete compliance, but you have to look at the bigger picture. The odds still favour the Host enormously due to the difficulty with gathering proof for a prosecution. I’m not condoning it, merely stating what has already been published in the media based on legal opinion.
    Will you be looking for a reduction in cost of insurance considering you will be only allowed let it out for x amount of days a year?


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    #405
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Kidkinobe wrote: »
    Will you be looking for a reduction in cost of insurance considering you will be only allowed let it out for x amount of days a year?

    From what has been released to the media, it will be 90 days per year, not consecutive days. At the risk of stating the obvious, the insurance will be annual so I’m not sure why you would look for a discount, 90 days is still equivalent to 45 weekends, I only rent mine at weekends, so no, I won’t be looking for a reduction.


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    #406
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Wouldn't you find it a bit of a pain to move out of your home every weekend for 45 weeks of the year?


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    #407
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    Wouldn't you find it a bit of a pain to move out of your home every weekend for 45 weeks of the year?

    It’s a vacant property.


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    #408
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Dav010 wrote: »
    It’s a vacant property.

    So the 90 days won't apply.
    An annual cap of 90 days will apply for the renting out, on a short-term basis – i.e. for 14 days or less at a time, of a person’s entire home where it is their primary residence.

    Where a person owns a second property and intends to let it as a STL, they will no longer be allowed to do so unless the property is already permitted to be used for tourism/short-term letting purposes.


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    #409
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    So the 90 days won't apply.

    Until we see the legislation, no body knows what applies. To prosecute a vacant property owner for STL without planning, those responsible for its enforcement will actually have to prove a STL occurred so will actually have to catch the guest in the property.


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    #410
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Until we see the legislation, no body knows what applies.

    I'm not sure of is if this will require new legislation or not.

    Until then all we have to go on is the announcement from the Minister published on the Dept. of Planning, Housing and Local Development website (quoted above).

    It's fairly unambiguous as to the intention but you're right, we don't know until will see the regulations.


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    #411
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    I'm not sure of is if this will require new legislation or not.

    Until then all we have to go on is the announcement from the Minister published on the Dept. of Planning, Housing and Local Development website (quoted above).

    It's fairly unambiguous as to the intention but you're right, we don't know until will see the regulations.

    It seems that as has happened many times, they leak the intention of what they want to do, the broad strokes, without knowing how they will implement it, the new legislation is supposed to be before the Dail by June. It is not illegal to advertise STL, it’s not illegal to receive payment because that does not prove the guest actually stayed. It will be illegal to have a STL without planning, but to prove a STL has occurred, they have to prove the guest physically stayed there and that ain’t gonna be easy. As another poster said, the council can’t even prove that partners stay in accommodation they are not supposed to.

    VeryTerry’s linked article gives an outline of the difficulties posed and shows why I suspect most Hosts will play the odds and continue as they are now.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-city-council-seeks-400-000-to-set-up-taskforce-to-crack-down-on-airbnbs-1.3708469?mode=amp


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    #412
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    It wasn't a leak, it was an announcement.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    will actually have to catch the guest in the property.

    Following that logic, it would be necessary to catch an accused person mid-burglary/assault for charges to be brought. Clearly not how it works.

    That's before you even ask/answer the "have you registered for the 90 day primary residence exemption".

    Regardless, the vast majority of current STLers will comply with the new regulations all be it grudgingly.


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    #413
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    It wasn't a leak, it was an announcement.



    Following that logic, it would be necessary to catch an accused person mid-burglary/assault for charges to be brought. Clearly not how it works.

    Regardless, the vast majority of current STLers will comply with the new regulations all be it grudgingly.

    It’s not my logic, read the article linked above. It actually quotes the head of Dublin Planning Dept as he outlines the difficulties with gathering evidence of wrong doing. Don’t shoot the messenger.

    How will the vast majority “ comply” if the planning office will be refusing planning, or do you expect DCC to grant most applications?


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    #414
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Thanks, hadn't seen that article.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    It’s not my logic, read the article linked above. It actually quotes the head of Dublin Planning Dept as he outlines the difficulties with gathering evidence of wrong doing.

    The devil will be in the detail.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    How will the vast majority “ comply” if the planning office will be refusing planning, or do you expect DCC to grant most applications?

    They will exit the STL market.


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    #415
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,252 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    Thanks, hadn't seen that article.



    The devil will be in the detail.



    They will exit the STL market.

    I really find it hard to believe they will. Many, many property owners and even tenants, are making huge sums from STL’s, unless there is a high probability of getting prosecuted, I think it will carry on as is, people will just take a chance. It’s the same as rent increases, illegal evictions, benefit scams etc, the chances of getting caught are low because the methods of enforcement are haphazard at best. Most STL property owners do not want to re-enter the tenancy market so will just go on with STL if they don’t sell.


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    #416
    KevinCavan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 612 ✭✭✭KevinCavan


    What is the real point of this? First they made Airbnb hosts tax compliant, now they are telling them they need special planning permission to conduct their business. If anything this will make hotel room dearer. Rents will continue to rise if every Airbnb host shuts down. Is it all just to make hoteliers richer. Also do Airbnb not have their headquarters here, so what message are we sending them?


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    #417
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Maybe you're right, perhaps thousands of landlords will suddenly go rogue. Personally I don't think so but only time will tell.

    We'll agree to differ and watch the outcome with interest.


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    #418
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    KevinCavan wrote: »
    What is the real point of this?

    Residential property returns to the residential market.

    Simples. :pac:


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    #419
    0cp71eyxkb94qf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 198 ✭✭0cp71eyxkb94qf


    I honestly don't know how any landlord can air bnb their property. I would always prefer to have a trustworthy tenant over an unknown person/people possibly ruining the gaffe and with the market the way it is, work/previous tenancy references are very easy to provide. Maybe I'm just too protective.


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    #420
    KevinCavan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 612 ✭✭✭KevinCavan


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    This isn't intended to fix the housing crisis on it's own. But it will help somewhat.

    How will it help?


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    #421
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    KevinCavan wrote: »
    How will it help?

    Hundreds of properties added back to the residential market in some of the most in-demand parts of the country.


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