Libraries nationwide abolish fines for overdue items

Day Lewin · 04-01-2019 12:40PM

Collecting the quite-small fines probably costs more time and staff than it's actually worth.

People who forgot to renew or return would have preferred to basically steal the book than turn it in and 'fess up. (Embarrassed!)

That being said, I feel that NO fines may just encourage people to never return the things at all. It is a conundrum!

PS I always felt that a one-month loan period would make sense: for me at least, its easier to remember. The three-weeks is actually a confusing sort of period to keep track of.

Note to self: First of each month; pay bills, ring Auntie, return library books and get books for new month. Something like that.

marvin80 · 04-01-2019 12:48PM

Libraries are a great resource.

There actually quite quick getting in new releases these days as well. I took out a few books last year that were released a few months earlier.
Saves me buying books that I'll only read once and then give away to charity shops or whatever. (I still buy books but only the ones I want a copy of, sometimes I even get them from the library first and then if it's good I'll buy a copy).

All libraries are joined up now so if you're living in Dublin and it doesn't have a book you want but the library in Galway has it, you can order it from Galway to be delivered to your local library.

There planning on improving the opening hours of libraries - probably via self-service machines - so abolishing fines is probably another initiative to improve membership numbers etc..

They have some good online services, like free digital magazines:

http://www.librariesireland.ie/online-resources/

And it's all free!!

tretorn · 04-01-2019 12:50PM

Samsgirl wrote: »

You could always keep your item for nine weeks. It's checked out for three weeks initially and can be renewed for a further three weeks two times.

If someone else is waiting for a book you have borrowed you cant renew it.

Some books could have sixty people who have reserved a copy and the library may have only five copies of the book.

The staff in the library I use arent too happy about this move. The fines brought in a lot of revenue and presumably this money would have been ringfenced to buy more books. Also at the moment I get an email reminding me books are due back and warning about fines. If fines are abolished does that mean the libraries will stop sending emails reminding users that books are due back.

My local libraries are very busy especially in the afternoons. The local students use them for after school study and some libraries run book clubs and story time sessions for toddlers. There are also regular talks on different topics and free computer classes for older people and language classes for people learning different languages.

Gimme A Pound · 04-01-2019 12:53PM

There's already enough of a problem in this country with people not bothering to pay for things or feeling entitled to free stuff. An intervention that accommodates this is not a "great idea" or "great news" at all. Hello stolen library items.

Bob24 · 04-01-2019 12:54PM

RayCun wrote: »

People feel very strongly about things of which they are almost completely ignorant.

Fines have been abolished in many other library systems around the world. Rather than saying "oh, this means no-one will ever return books", it is possible to find out what has happened in other libraries, or read a white paper on the subject.

Headlines saying removing fines improve things can forget to highlight that fines have been replaced by something else though (for exemple: agressive restriction of borrowing rights or full replacement charge for the book after a certain time). It is removing fine without replacing them by anything else which is the issue. If another mechanism is introduced instead it is very fine (if I dare say :-)).

See for exemple: https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/local/the-dayton-library-ended-late-fees-here-what-happened/ZGaTCrUqhZQsbaH9QxTbiJ/

Starts with saying: “fewer borrowed materials have become overdue, and borrowers actually have returned more overdue materials than they did in 2017, officials said”.

But then a few other points come which might explain this, for exemple: “After 35 days overdue, the library adds a $10 processing fee to the replacement costs, and the borrower’s account is turned over to a collection agency”.

So yeah removing fines improved things, but as far as I’m concerned what they replaced them with is a lot tougher (full replacement cost, processing fee, and handled by a collection agency!).

seamus · 04-01-2019 01:05PM

People are generally decent and well-meaning. They don't hold onto library books because they want to steal the book, they do it because they forget. And forget, and forget and forget. If you've never managed to completely forget about something until six months have passed, then you're the exception, not the rule.

Fines don't really do much to stop people forgetting, they just create a barrier when the person finally does remember.

tretorn wrote: »

The staff in the library I use arent too happy about this move. The fines brought in a lot of revenue and presumably this money would have been ringfenced to buy more books.

Nonsense. Late fees bring in a tiny amount of money, certainly not enough to make the staff sad that it's not coming in. The staff don't even see it.

This measure is not a "do what you like" one.

You will still receive reminders about the overdue item, and if it is not returned after the 3rd reminder, your account will be blocked until you return it or discuss it with staff.

You can then return it, or plead that it's been lost and pay the replacement cost to have your account unblocked.

An eminently sensible move that doesn't seek to penalise anyone for honest mistakes, while still removing any scope for pisstaking.

namloc1980 · 04-01-2019 01:13PM

Jerry Salmon Pup wrote: »

There's already enough of a problem in this country with people not bothering to pay for things or feeling entitled to free stuff. An intervention that accommodates this is not a "great idea" or "great news" at all. Hello stolen library items.

I can feel your outrage! There is no entitlement here. Free library usage is actually a very positive thing and should be welcomed but the permanently outraged always have to moan about something. The fines weren't being actively collected anyway so I can't see mass thievery of library items breaking out across the country. Do you have evidence that this will happen?

Garibaldi? · 04-01-2019 01:14PM

Books in high demand(the ones you cannot renew) can now be passed around to friends/relatives who did not go through the process of reserving them and waiting their turn. Not very fair!

namloc1980 · 04-01-2019 01:15PM

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Books in high demand(the ones you cannot renew) can now be passed around to friends/relatives who did not go through the process of reserving them and waiting their turn. Not very fair!

But there was nothing to stop that happening anyway up until now. The fines were not being actively collected.

Gimme A Pound · 04-01-2019 01:17PM

Weird when you write a post in a perfectly composed fashion with no shoutiness or abusive language... and then someone comes along and says you're "outraged".

Says more about them really.

Anyways...

RayCun wrote: »

People feel very strongly about things of which they are almost completely ignorant.

Fines have been abolished in many other library systems around the world. Rather than saying "oh, this means no-one will ever return books", it is possible to find out what has happened in other libraries, or read a white paper on the subject.

This is Ireland. Where not giving what you owe is celebrated. It's not just an Irish thing by the way.

Yeah I'm sure it wouldn't be abused in Germany or Holland or Belgium or the Nordic countries or Canada, but alas...

Garibaldi? · 04-01-2019 01:18PM

Ideally there should be a stern approach regarding the late return of books on high demand. It's a wonderful facility to obtain these books in the library. However if people keep them indefinitely it will render the system useless.

namloc1980 · 04-01-2019 01:20PM

Jerry Salmon Pup wrote: »

Weird when you write a post in a perfectly composed fashion with no shoutiness or abusive language... and then someone comes along and says you're "outraged".

Says more about them really.

Anyways...

This is Ireland. Where not giving what you owe is celebrated. It's not just an Irish thing by the way.

Yeah I'm sure it wouldn't be abused in Germany or Holland or Belgium or the Nordic countries or Canada, but alas...

You came in to say that library items will now be stolen. Do you have evidence for this or is it just how you feel? I see you're using the "only in Ireland" excuse also.

namloc1980 · 04-01-2019 01:22PM

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Ideally there should be a stern approach regarding the late return of books on high demand. It's a wonderful facility to obtain these books in the library. However if people keep them indefinitely it will render the system useless.

Again there was nothing to stop people keeping them indefinitely up to now. Is there any evidence to suggest that mass robbery of library items is about to break out across the country??

Mrs OBumble · 04-01-2019 01:24PM

RayCun wrote: »

People feel very strongly about things of which they are almost completely ignorant.

Fines have been abolished in many other library systems around the world. Rather than saying "oh, this means no-one will ever return books", it is possible to find out what has happened in other libraries, or read a white paper on the subject.

I bet the people in the countries those studies were in manage to use the middle door on buses and self ticketing systems on trains without an army of ticket checkers, too.

Ger Roe · 04-01-2019 01:27PM

seamus wrote: »

Nonsense. Late fees bring in a tiny amount of money, certainly not enough to make the staff sad that it's not coming in. The staff don't even see it.

The RTE TV news report of Jan 2nd stated that fines collected 'the year before last' (2017?) amounted to €800,000. What was the money used for and where will it now come from?

The proof of this pr stunt will be in the stated objective target - hoped to increase the membership from 16% of population to 30% by 2022. Time will tell, and sure if it isn't reached it will all be long forgotten about by then, but in the meantime the minister and whoever else wants a piece of the good news action can bask in a bit of positive spin glory.

Takes the mind off Brexit, and carbon tax for a few days anyway

Tinker away with things that don't matter, do easy things that no one asked for and ignore the bigger issues. It's the political equivalent of click bait.

namloc1980 · 04-01-2019 01:29PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I bet the people in the countries those studies were in manage to use the middle door on buses and self ticketing systems on trains without an army of ticket checkers, too.

Fare evasion is massive on the continent, in particular Germany. They have large numbers of ticket inspectors (many in plain clothes) to try to combat it. The even have a colloquial word for it in Germany - Schwarzfahrer, literally black-rider or invisible-rider. But let me guess, "only in Ireland" right?

tretorn · 04-01-2019 01:30PM

Our local library staff told me they collect a lot of money through fines.

They arent one bit pleased about this development and know it will mean people will keep books too long.

Garibaldi? · 04-01-2019 01:30PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Again there was nothing to stop people keeping them indefinitely up to now. Is there any evidence to suggest that mass robbery of library items is about to break out across the country??

I know the fine was very insignificant, yet it kept people aware of their liability. I'd say very few people steal library books but many people have a very complacent attitude about them. This is not a crime but it impinges upon others in the community who may be waiting for a particular book.

namloc1980 · 04-01-2019 01:33PM

Garibaldi? wrote: »

I know the fine was very insignificant, yet it kept people aware of their liability. I'd say very few people steal library books but many people have a very complacent attitude about them. This is not a crime but it impinges upon others in the community who may be waiting for a particular book.

So nothing has changed. Someone who wanted to rob a library book last week, can still do it this week.

namloc1980 · 04-01-2019 01:38PM

tretorn wrote: »

Our local library staff told me they collect a lot of money through fines.

They arent one bit pleased about this development and know it will mean people will keep books too long.

There's actually no evidence to suggest that return times on library books goes up if there are no fines.

seamus · 04-01-2019 01:41PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I bet the people in the countries those studies were in manage to use the middle door on buses and self ticketing systems on trains without an army of ticket checkers, too.

And they don't throw shared bikes into the rivers either...oh wait.

The Irish aren't some special breed of anti-social troglodytes. The constant self-deprecation about how the Irish can't be trusted to be decent human beings like other countries can, is getting very tiring now that we've disproved it over and over again.

Ger Roe wrote: »

The RTE TV news report of Jan 2nd stated that fines collected 'the year before last' (2017?) amounted to €800,000. What was the money used for and where will it now come from?

That works out to just under €2,500 per library. That's not a lot of money.

The "lost" money will come from the library development fund which had an extra €3.3m added to its budget this year.

This money was never "extra" funds for libraries. Whatever they collected in fines was deducted from their budget allocation for the next year.

Gimme A Pound · 04-01-2019 01:51PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

You came in to say that library items will now be stolen. Do you have evidence for this or is it just how you feel? I see you're using the "only in Ireland" excuse also.

Heh, I even made it clear that it's not just an Irish thing. "Stolen" as in taken out and not returned. Actually accommodating that is baffling.

Seamus, I know Mrs O Bumble is an anti Irish bigot and I'm certainly not one of those self flagellating Irish forelock-tuggers, however it cannot be denied that in this society there is too much unwillingness to give what you owe. And in other countries too. But it's not as bad everywhere.

seamus · 04-01-2019 01:53PM

Jerry Salmon Pup wrote: »

Heh, I even made it clear that it's not just an Irish thing. "Stolen" as in taken out and not returned. Actually accommodating that is baffling.

Yeah, but nothing has changed in this regard. Last week someone could take a book out and never return it and face no real sanction.

So what's changed?

it cannot be denied that in this society there is too much unwillingness to give what you owe

It really can be denied. We are not a special case. If anything, we are noticeably more compliant than other societies.

namloc1980 · 04-01-2019 02:00PM

Jerry Salmon Pup wrote: »

Heh, I even made it clear that it's not just an Irish thing. "Stolen" as in taken out and not returned. Actually accommodating that is baffling.

Seamus, I know Mrs O Bumble is an anti Irish bigot and I'm certainly not one of those self flagellating Irish forelock-tuggers, however it cannot be denied that in this society there is too much unwillingness to give what you owe. And in other countries too. But it's not as bad everywhere.

Except there's no evidence to suggest return times or the numbers of unreturned items goes up if there are no fines. If someone wanted to "steal" a book last year they could. Removal of the fines changes nothing for those people who want to take a library book. The fines weren't actively chased. Removing library fines is actually being done across the world in many countries. Here's one from the US which also went into effect this month:

Link

RayCun · 04-01-2019 02:09PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I bet the people in the countries those studies were in manage to use the middle door on buses and self ticketing systems on trains without an army of ticket checkers, too.

I bet the people in those countries said, "Plastic bag levy? Banning smoking in pubs? Yeah, maybe that would work in Ireland but it will never work here."

Gimme A Pound · 04-01-2019 02:10PM

Fair enough.

seamus wrote: »

It really can be denied. We are not a special case. If anything, we are noticeably more compliant than other societies.

Nono, it absolutely cannot be denied. You may not have to deal with the ridiculous sense of entitlement and "I'm not paying for what I need" but that doesn't mean it isn't at a ludicrous level here. I mean it's not like such attitudes aren't being legitimised by PBP and the water charges protesters et al. Shur I said twice it's not just Ireland. But there's no way all societies suffer from that level of abdicating personal responsibility.

4068ac1elhodqr · 04-01-2019 02:18PM

Decision might be influenced by a recent TED talk "A Librarian's Case Against Overdue Book Fines"
https://www.ted.com/talks/dawn_wacek_a_librarian_s_case_against_overdue_book_fines/transcript?language=en

namloc1980 · 04-01-2019 02:22PM

Jerry Salmon Pup wrote: »

Fair enough.

Nono, it absolutely cannot be denied. You may not have to deal with the ridiculous sense of entitlement and "I'm not paying for what I need" but that doesn't mean it isn't at a ludicrous level here. I mean it's not like such attitudes aren't being legitimised by PBP and the water charges protesters et al. Shur I said twice it's not just Ireland. But there's no way all societies suffer from that level of abdicating personal responsibility.

Germany is often put forward on AH as a model society for us to emulate. Below is a chart of passengers who knowingly travel on public transit without a valid ticket. This level of entitlement would put us to shame:

infografik_9748_berlin_hat_die_meisten_schwarzfahrer_n.jpg

infografik_9748_berlin_hat_die_meisten_schwarzfahrer_n.jpg

Akrasia · 04-01-2019 02:26PM

Samsgirl wrote: »

You get a reminder email or text a few days before they go overdue.

I only ever got an email the day they were already overdue

Akrasia · 04-01-2019 02:37PM

Jerry Salmon Pup wrote: »

There's already enough of a problem in this country with people not bothering to pay for things or feeling entitled to free stuff. An intervention that accommodates this is not a "great idea" or "great news" at all. Hello stolen library items.

The library service exists to support education services and improve literacy and cultural awareness. Children's books are extremely expensive to buy new and they often only have an hour or two of actual reading in them. libraries are fantastic resources for families who want to encourage reading but have low disposable income. The library system have decided to focus on encouraging people to use the services rather than guaranteeing that every new release novel is immediately available to everyone.

If you can't get the exact book you need, go browsing the shelves and pick something else. That's how you expand your horizons. You can also book the new release and wait for it to become available or try and find it in a 2nd hand bookshop or buy it new.

I can see issues with academic textbooks though as they are expensive to buy new so students might hoard those, but that happens already tbh, and university libraries probably have their own methods of policing theft or hoarding of books and journals

Libraries nationwide abolish fines for overdue items

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