Libraries nationwide abolish fines for overdue items

Bob24

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/libraries-nationwide-abolish-fines-for-overdue-items-895205.html

I find it pretty stupid TBH, they justify the change saying that “Research has shown that people view fines as a barrier to membership and usage of libraries”.

Yeah, people who don’t respect others and intend not to return items on time might see fines as a barrier, but as far as I’m concerned I’m very ok with those people not using the library service - everyone else probably doesn’t have any concern with fines as they are irrelevant to them.

rgodard80a

Shush

Mr. Incognito

Its true though.

I was on the dole and used to go to the library evey few days to read the newspaper and books.

If you forgot to bring a book back the fines would pile up so people just stay away with the books.

Outlaw Pete

Nice one. I can now casually walk past Kevin St library instead of a jogging with my head down.

Bob24

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

If you forgot to bring a book back the fines would pile up so people just stay away with the books.

Only applies to people who fail to return items on time on a regular basis though. I.e. people who selfishly monopolise limited public ressources.

Forgetting once can happen, it is no big deal and will have virtually no impact on the person - failing to return items on time on a regular basis or holding onto high demand items for which there is a waiting list shouldn’t be accepted with no consequences.

Ger Roe

I thought it a bit odd myself.... presumably it will now make it more difficult to determine when books may be returned since the risk of a fine has been eliminated? I would think that if you are waiting on a book to be returned by a particular date, there is now a higher chance that it will not be.

Also, it was reported on the news last night that around €800,000 was raised by fines in a recent year - why have they simply given up on that revenue stream? What was that money previously used for and how will it now be generated?

On hearing the news, my thought was that this is an easy publicity stunt to remind people that libraries exist, I don't think its a move intended to make the system more efficient or cost effective. I suspect that it will have the opposite effect in the long run.

Chinasea

More crazy free give aways.

We have a multimillion libary in Dun Laoghaire (Lexicon) and the bloody place has very limited opening hours, especially on the weekends and bank holidays, when the tax payers might have a bit of time to utilise it.

loyatemu

Chinasea wrote: »

More crazy free give aways.

We have a multimillion libary in Dun Laoghaire (Lexicon) and the bloody place has very limited opening hours, especially on the weekends and bank holidays, when the tax payers might have a bit of time to utilise it.

It's open on Sundays (albeit without any Librarians) which is more than most libraries are.

StudentDad

This is a nice enough story. Frankly though I'd rather better opening hours for libraries. My local library only opens 10 - 4 on a Saturday and is shut Sunday and Monday. The weekend of a bank holiday, it's shut on the Saturday.

The rest of the week it's only open from 10 until 5ish with a couple of later opening hours midweek. This effectively means the library is a very restricted resource to those who work during the week.

In this sense better opening hours on the weekend should be the preferred option, rather than slightly longer hours midweek.

SD

Bob24

Ger Roe wrote: »

presumably it will now make it more difficult to determine when books may be returned since the risk of a fine has been eliminated? I would think that if you are waiting on a book to be returned by a particular date, there is now a higher chance that it will not be.

My thoughts exactly. And a far as I am concerned if this becomes a recurrent issue it will be more a reason to stop using librairies than a usage barrier being removed. Also if will encourage more and more people to misbehave as sincr they have to wait ages for items because others don’t follow deadlines they will start thinking “why would I bother with the rules myself?”.

whiskeyman

Avoiding fines?
Stealing property?

Throw the book at them!

razorblunt

I went into the one in Cork and said "CLAMP MY CAR AND FINE ME ALL YOU WANT, THAT CAR WAS PARKED LEGALLY".

The Librarian told me it was a library I was in.

"Sorry, clamp my car and fine me all you want, that car was parked legally", I whispered to her.

Chinasea

loyatemu wrote: »

It's open on Sundays (albeit without any Librarians) which is more than most libraries are.

It opens extremely limited hours on Sunday which are pretty useless.

Akrasia

This is great news, i think we owe them about 60 quid in fines. I go regularly and get about 15 kids books at a time and sometimes I'm a day or two late returning them because they don't stamp them anymore and they only remind you to return them after they're already overdue. The costs add up quickly, especially if one of the books gets left behind and I don't realise until I find it in one of the kids rooms amongst their other books

Also there are loads of people with library books they borrowed ages ago and forgot about and now they're embarrassed to bring them back. This might encourage them to return

Foweva Awone

It may have been a better idea to do a one-off amnesty of sorts - clear all existing fines and debts, to encourage people to come back without any consequence.

As a very regular library user, I generally have the maximum of 12 books on my "hold" list at any one time ... will be interesting to see if I'm left waiting a lot longer for the in demand books. Now that people ahead of me on the list can essentially keep them for as long as they want.

Alrigghtythen

We could build houses out of the free books and solve the homeless crises. Some of them would probably refuse in case they learned something.

Bob24

Foweva Awone wrote: »

It may have been a better idea to do a one-off amnesty of sorts - clear all existing fines and debts, to encourage people to come back without any consequence.

As a very regular library user, I generally have the maximum of 12 books on my "hold" list at any one time ... will be interesting to see if I'm left waiting a lot longer for the in demand books. Now that people ahead of me on the list can essentially keep them for as long as they want.

Or if they really see fines as the barrier (again I doubt so, at least not for people who respect others), another option would be to have a gradual suspention scheme. First time an item is late more than 3 days, let it go but keep note of it, second time suspend borrowing for a week, third time for a month, fourth time for 2 months, etc (also immediate suspension if any single item becomes more than a month overdue and until every overdue item is returned).

tretorn

If you keep the books for longer than nine weeks your card will be suspended.
I think this is ridiculous, thats over twomonths to keep a book without any penalty.
If there are a lot of people waiting for a book you should be only given a week to read it. The only library I have seen a policy like this is Raheny.
Dunlaoghaire library is accessible 365 days a year till 10 pm. You need to contact the library to get an access code. Its open every sunday too but I wouldnt go in on a sunday again. Too msny noisy children, some climbing and jumping off sofas while parents drinking coffee and on their phones ignored them.

Mrs OBumble

So there's no need to return any book ever. Clever move. Not.

namloc1980

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So there's no need to return any book ever. Clever move. Not.

There's no need to return a book under the old regime either. The library doesn't actively chase the fines so it's pretty meaningless as it is. Not sure I buy the concept that everyone will now stop returning books and start hoarding them.

riffmongous

Im surprised no one has asked the obvious question yet.. do people still go to libraries?

Ger Roe

riffmongous wrote: »

Im surprised no one has asked the obvious question yet.. do people still go to libraries?

Not as much as used to, obviously... I suspect that is why this publicity stunt was launched. When was the last time libraries were newsworthy?

Job done..:)

iamwhoiam

riffmongous wrote: »

Im surprised no one has asked the obvious question yet.. do people still go to libraries?

Yes , lots do for various activities and clubs and kids storytime etc .I use it with my grandchild and always full of kids borrowing books and doing crafts etc

Jellybaby1

Akrasia wrote: »

This is great news, i think we owe them about 60 quid in fines. I go regularly and get about 15 kids books at a time and sometimes I'm a day or two late returning them because they don't stamp them anymore and they only remind you to return them after they're already overdue. The costs add up quickly, especially if one of the books gets left behind and I don't realise until I find it in one of the kids rooms amongst their other books

Also there are loads of people with library books they borrowed ages ago and forgot about and now they're embarrassed to bring them back. This might encourage them to return

In the 90's when I used to bring my children to get library books we rarely brought them back late as I taught them to be responsible. I had to keep a check on our spending so I kept on top of the returns as I saw no good reason to pile up fines. These days I still borrow books, but not more than 3 or 4 at a time. I always print a receipt and when I get home I write the date due on the lending record in the book. A reminder on my phone also helps. You can also check online to see what books you have outstanding. Problems like late books and fines can be solved quite easily. I'm genuinely shocked that you owe €60!! Probably more people out there that owe a lot as well. I'm not in favour of abolishing fines. I've found more problems with the machines not working in libraries. The staff no longer deal with taking in money from borrowers and don't have as much to do with lending or returning books except when the machines don't work, which can be a regular occurrence in my library. Get rid of the machines and get the librarians to do the job they always did. I'm sure they will say they are 'too busy' to do that menial work like taking money and stamping books, but surely its part of the job of being a librarian. There are plenty of people (like me) who could have happily worked in libraries as volunteers, or work experience, or even temporary contracts doing the simpler tasks.

RayCun

People feel very strongly about things of which they are almost completely ignorant.

Fines have been abolished in many other library systems around the world. Rather than saying "oh, this means no-one will ever return books", it is possible to find out what has happened in other libraries, or read a white paper on the subject.

As diligent as they were, in three research projects over fifteen years, these authors could not uncover data to support the assumption held in the profession that the existence of nominal fines is a successful incentive to patrons to return materials on time; and only very steep fines seem to have had any significant effect on overdue occurrences.

Samsgirl

Akrasia wrote: »

This is great news, i think we owe them about 60 quid in fines. I go regularly and get about 15 kids books at a time and sometimes I'm a day or two late returning them because they don't stamp them anymore and they only remind you to return them after they're already overdue. The costs add up quickly, especially if one of the books gets left behind and I don't realise until I find it in one of the kids rooms amongst their other books

Also there are loads of people with library books they borrowed ages ago and forgot about and now they're embarrassed to bring them back. This might encourage them to return

You get a reminder email or text a few days before they go overdue.

branie2

Great idea

Samsgirl

tretorn wrote: »

If you keep the books for longer than nine weeks your card will be suspended.
I think this is ridiculous, thats over twomonths to keep a book without any penalty.
If there are a lot of people waiting for a book you should be only given a week to read it. The only library I have seen a policy like this is Raheny.
Dunlaoghaire library is accessible 365 days a year till 10 pm. You need to contact the library to get an access code. Its open every sunday too but I wouldnt go in on a sunday again. Too msny noisy children, some climbing and jumping off sofas while parents drinking coffee and on their phones ignored them.

You could always keep your item for nine weeks. It's checked out for three weeks initially and can be renewed for a further three weeks two times.

Samsgirl

riffmongous wrote: »

Im surprised no one has asked the obvious question yet.. do people still go to libraries?

Up to 350 a day in the branch I worked in

iamwhoiam

Samsgirl wrote: »

You get a reminder email or text a few days before they go overdue.

You also get a print out when borrowing with return date on it .

AttentionBebe

Amazed to see people giving out about this. I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken to who say something like "oh I forgot to return a book 5 years ago and haven't been back since". So yes, it was a very real barrier for some people using the service. No fines doesn't mean no responsibility, if you fail to return or renew a book your card stops working and all online services are cut off such as e-magazines, e-books, Comixplus, online courses, music lesson tutorials etc. All it takes to restore the service is to return the book (and yes, all of those things are available for free with your membership, for the glib comments about nobody using libraries anymore)

Day Lewin

Collecting the quite-small fines probably costs more time and staff than it's actually worth.

People who forgot to renew or return would have preferred to basically steal the book than turn it in and 'fess up. (Embarrassed!)

That being said, I feel that NO fines may just encourage people to never return the things at all. It is a conundrum!

PS I always felt that a one-month loan period would make sense: for me at least, its easier to remember. The three-weeks is actually a confusing sort of period to keep track of.

Note to self: First of each month; pay bills, ring Auntie, return library books and get books for new month. Something like that.

marvin80

Libraries are a great resource.

There actually quite quick getting in new releases these days as well. I took out a few books last year that were released a few months earlier.
Saves me buying books that I'll only read once and then give away to charity shops or whatever. (I still buy books but only the ones I want a copy of, sometimes I even get them from the library first and then if it's good I'll buy a copy).

All libraries are joined up now so if you're living in Dublin and it doesn't have a book you want but the library in Galway has it, you can order it from Galway to be delivered to your local library.

There planning on improving the opening hours of libraries - probably via self-service machines - so abolishing fines is probably another initiative to improve membership numbers etc..

They have some good online services, like free digital magazines:

http://www.librariesireland.ie/online-resources/

And it's all free!!

tretorn

Samsgirl wrote: »

You could always keep your item for nine weeks. It's checked out for three weeks initially and can be renewed for a further three weeks two times.

If someone else is waiting for a book you have borrowed you cant renew it.

Some books could have sixty people who have reserved a copy and the library may have only five copies of the book.

The staff in the library I use arent too happy about this move. The fines brought in a lot of revenue and presumably this money would have been ringfenced to buy more books. Also at the moment I get an email reminding me books are due back and warning about fines. If fines are abolished does that mean the libraries will stop sending emails reminding users that books are due back.

My local libraries are very busy especially in the afternoons. The local students use them for after school study and some libraries run book clubs and story time sessions for toddlers. There are also regular talks on different topics and free computer classes for older people and language classes for people learning different languages.

Gimme A Pound

There's already enough of a problem in this country with people not bothering to pay for things or feeling entitled to free stuff. An intervention that accommodates this is not a "great idea" or "great news" at all. Hello stolen library items.

Bob24

RayCun wrote: »

People feel very strongly about things of which they are almost completely ignorant.

Fines have been abolished in many other library systems around the world. Rather than saying "oh, this means no-one will ever return books", it is possible to find out what has happened in other libraries, or read a white paper on the subject.

Headlines saying removing fines improve things can forget to highlight that fines have been replaced by something else though (for exemple: agressive restriction of borrowing rights or full replacement charge for the book after a certain time). It is removing fine without replacing them by anything else which is the issue. If another mechanism is introduced instead it is very fine (if I dare say :-)).

See for exemple: https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/local/the-dayton-library-ended-late-fees-here-what-happened/ZGaTCrUqhZQsbaH9QxTbiJ/

Starts with saying: “fewer borrowed materials have become overdue, and borrowers actually have returned more overdue materials than they did in 2017, officials said”.

But then a few other points come which might explain this, for exemple: “After 35 days overdue, the library adds a $10 processing fee to the replacement costs, and the borrower’s account is turned over to a collection agency”.

So yeah removing fines improved things, but as far as I’m concerned what they replaced them with is a lot tougher (full replacement cost, processing fee, and handled by a collection agency!).

seamus

People are generally decent and well-meaning. They don't hold onto library books because they want to steal the book, they do it because they forget. And forget, and forget and forget. If you've never managed to completely forget about something until six months have passed, then you're the exception, not the rule.

Fines don't really do much to stop people forgetting, they just create a barrier when the person finally does remember.

tretorn wrote: »

The staff in the library I use arent too happy about this move. The fines brought in a lot of revenue and presumably this money would have been ringfenced to buy more books.

Nonsense. Late fees bring in a tiny amount of money, certainly not enough to make the staff sad that it's not coming in. The staff don't even see it.

This measure is not a "do what you like" one.

You will still receive reminders about the overdue item, and if it is not returned after the 3rd reminder, your account will be blocked until you return it or discuss it with staff.

You can then return it, or plead that it's been lost and pay the replacement cost to have your account unblocked.

An eminently sensible move that doesn't seek to penalise anyone for honest mistakes, while still removing any scope for pisstaking.

namloc1980

Jerry Salmon Pup wrote: »

There's already enough of a problem in this country with people not bothering to pay for things or feeling entitled to free stuff. An intervention that accommodates this is not a "great idea" or "great news" at all. Hello stolen library items.

I can feel your outrage! There is no entitlement here. Free library usage is actually a very positive thing and should be welcomed but the permanently outraged always have to moan about something. The fines weren't being actively collected anyway so I can't see mass thievery of library items breaking out across the country. Do you have evidence that this will happen?

Garibaldi?

Books in high demand(the ones you cannot renew) can now be passed around to friends/relatives who did not go through the process of reserving them and waiting their turn. Not very fair!

namloc1980

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Books in high demand(the ones you cannot renew) can now be passed around to friends/relatives who did not go through the process of reserving them and waiting their turn. Not very fair!

But there was nothing to stop that happening anyway up until now. The fines were not being actively collected.

Gimme A Pound

Weird when you write a post in a perfectly composed fashion with no shoutiness or abusive language... and then someone comes along and says you're "outraged".

Says more about them really.

Anyways...

RayCun wrote: »

People feel very strongly about things of which they are almost completely ignorant.

Fines have been abolished in many other library systems around the world. Rather than saying "oh, this means no-one will ever return books", it is possible to find out what has happened in other libraries, or read a white paper on the subject.

This is Ireland. Where not giving what you owe is celebrated. It's not just an Irish thing by the way.

Yeah I'm sure it wouldn't be abused in Germany or Holland or Belgium or the Nordic countries or Canada, but alas...

Garibaldi?

Ideally there should be a stern approach regarding the late return of books on high demand. It's a wonderful facility to obtain these books in the library. However if people keep them indefinitely it will render the system useless.

namloc1980

Jerry Salmon Pup wrote: »

Weird when you write a post in a perfectly composed fashion with no shoutiness or abusive language... and then someone comes along and says you're "outraged".

Says more about them really.

Anyways...

This is Ireland. Where not giving what you owe is celebrated. It's not just an Irish thing by the way.

Yeah I'm sure it wouldn't be abused in Germany or Holland or Belgium or the Nordic countries or Canada, but alas...

You came in to say that library items will now be stolen. Do you have evidence for this or is it just how you feel? I see you're using the "only in Ireland" excuse also.

namloc1980

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Ideally there should be a stern approach regarding the late return of books on high demand. It's a wonderful facility to obtain these books in the library. However if people keep them indefinitely it will render the system useless.

Again there was nothing to stop people keeping them indefinitely up to now. Is there any evidence to suggest that mass robbery of library items is about to break out across the country??

Mrs OBumble

RayCun wrote: »

People feel very strongly about things of which they are almost completely ignorant.

Fines have been abolished in many other library systems around the world. Rather than saying "oh, this means no-one will ever return books", it is possible to find out what has happened in other libraries, or read a white paper on the subject.

I bet the people in the countries those studies were in manage to use the middle door on buses and self ticketing systems on trains without an army of ticket checkers, too.

Ger Roe

seamus wrote: »

Nonsense. Late fees bring in a tiny amount of money, certainly not enough to make the staff sad that it's not coming in. The staff don't even see it.

The RTE TV news report of Jan 2nd stated that fines collected 'the year before last' (2017?) amounted to €800,000. What was the money used for and where will it now come from?

The proof of this pr stunt will be in the stated objective target - hoped to increase the membership from 16% of population to 30% by 2022. Time will tell, and sure if it isn't reached it will all be long forgotten about by then, but in the meantime the minister and whoever else wants a piece of the good news action can bask in a bit of positive spin glory.

Takes the mind off Brexit, and carbon tax for a few days anyway Tinker away with things that don't matter, do easy things that no one asked for and ignore the bigger issues. It's the political equivalent of click bait.

namloc1980

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I bet the people in the countries those studies were in manage to use the middle door on buses and self ticketing systems on trains without an army of ticket checkers, too.

Fare evasion is massive on the continent, in particular Germany. They have large numbers of ticket inspectors (many in plain clothes) to try to combat it. The even have a colloquial word for it in Germany - Schwarzfahrer, literally black-rider or invisible-rider. But let me guess, "only in Ireland" right?

tretorn

Our local library staff told me they collect a lot of money through fines.

They arent one bit pleased about this development and know it will mean people will keep books too long.

Garibaldi?

namloc1980 wrote: »

Again there was nothing to stop people keeping them indefinitely up to now. Is there any evidence to suggest that mass robbery of library items is about to break out across the country??

I know the fine was very insignificant, yet it kept people aware of their liability. I'd say very few people steal library books but many people have a very complacent attitude about them. This is not a crime but it impinges upon others in the community who may be waiting for a particular book.

namloc1980

Garibaldi? wrote: »

I know the fine was very insignificant, yet it kept people aware of their liability. I'd say very few people steal library books but many people have a very complacent attitude about them. This is not a crime but it impinges upon others in the community who may be waiting for a particular book.

So nothing has changed. Someone who wanted to rob a library book last week, can still do it this week.

namloc1980

tretorn wrote: »

Our local library staff told me they collect a lot of money through fines.

They arent one bit pleased about this development and know it will mean people will keep books too long.

There's actually no evidence to suggest that return times on library books goes up if there are no fines.