A heartbreaking end to a rifle, and a deer season?

Uinseann_16 · 29-12-2018 10:16pm #1

Well lads my rifle has started keyholing everything that goes through it.
A few weeks ago i bought a moderator on here put it on and bought myself a box of sellier and bellot 180gr sp , went to zero it and it keyholed the rounds my thoughts were its a 1in12" twist the bullets are too heavy
Back to the rfd bought a box of hornady steel match and a box hornady whitetail 150grain sp , this rifle was zeroed before with the steel match and 165grain SSTs so i knew the rifle liked the steel match
Went out today to zero the rifle i couldnt even get it on paper or even on target or so i thought went outside to look at the target tonight i had a funny feeling so i just checked it again.... a perfect keyhole at the bottom of the target this time a spitzer shape not the round nose sellier and bellot
My guess is a baffle strike of some sorts but theres no sign of one on the moderator at all..???
So thats it my deer season is gone.. with nothing to show for it, sure ill see if my rifle shoots alright without the silencer but im not going hunting without one i need to preserve my hearing as much as possible over the next few months for certain reasons
So the dilemma , if the rifles re-zeroed its too short itll be below 20" so im thinking the rifle will have to be going to the dealer to be traded but i doubt ill have the rifle back in time.I wont be around for the deer season next year this may be the last one im out for in a few years so its quite annoying to say the least and i bought this rifle when i was 16 with all the part time job money i could get i wasnt planning on trading it until the licence is up in 2020.

Does anyone know if the threads in the mod could be off ,id say the rifle threads arnt concentric or maybe the throat or crown has been damaged?
Its a Marlin XS7 chambered in .308 and the mod is a ASE Ultra Northstar.

Uinseann_16 · 29-12-2018 10:28pm

Top pic is the 180GR SP S&B
Bottom pic is the Hornady steel match

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pm. · 29-12-2018 11:19pm

Sorry to hear that, check out the link below it may have some answers other than the dreaded barrel shot out. With a bit of luck a recrown may do the job

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-reason-why-bullets-keyhole

aaakev · 30-12-2018 12:03am

See if she shoots straight without the mod, if it does get a pair of electronic ear defenders for €50. Not ideal but may allow ya finish out the season

Uinseann_16 · 30-12-2018 12:05am

aaakev wrote: »

See if she shoots straight without the mod, if it does get a pair of electronic ear defenders for €50. Not ideal but may allow ya finish out the season

I have a pair of impact sport ear protectors alright. I go shooting with others though..

gunny123 · 30-12-2018 12:25am

Is the bore coppered up perhaps ? A rifle if correctly looked after should last a few lifetimes, there are rifles made during the world wars that have fired many thousands of rounds and are still going strong.

crosshair1 · 30-12-2018 12:31am

If it is clipping the mod, be it a bad threading job or deformed mod, if its slight enough you could get the mod bore opened up.
Theres lots of ase ultras out there opened from 25 to 30cal without issue.

ayagerard · 30-12-2018 12:52am

WHAT IS THE ROUND COUNT was it new when you bought it , what kind of groups were you getting before you got the mod , 308 wont drop off over night

Uinseann_16 · 30-12-2018 1:44am

ayagerard wrote: »

WHAT IS THE ROUND COUNT was it new when you bought it , what kind of groups were you getting before you got the mod , 308 wont drop off over night

Groups were clover leaf with 165gr sst @100m off a bipod about 2" off a tripod @200
Rifle was second hand the round count is unknown

gunny123 · 30-12-2018 2:01am

I had a sako in .308, i found the date codes online and was amazed to find that it was made in the mid-1960's. It was an absolute tackdriver, and not at all fussy about what it shot. I would be truely amazed if your rifle is shot-out Uinseann. It might be fouled up, or need the crown recut. Can you see the rifling ok ? What does it look like ? Is it faint looking ? Have you checked the bedding screws in the stock ?

Uinseann_16 · 30-12-2018 3:52am

I think its a case of whoever threaded this rifle needs to be beat with a comically oversized dial indicator and/or a 4 jaw chuck until they figure out how they work..... i had a look with a simple vernier caliper and it seems its the threads arent concentric to the bore by quite a bit:(
Diagram may not be perfectly accurate

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gunny123 · 30-12-2018 4:02am

Someone slung into a 3 jaw chuck and took pot luck. This is what happens with some gun shops, they take in jobs and throw them into anyone local with a lathe.

Anyway, problem solved.

Uinseann_16 · 30-12-2018 4:15am

gunny123 wrote: »

Someone slung into a 3 jaw chuck and took pot luck. This is what happens with some gun shops, they take in jobs and throw them into anyone local with a lathe.

Anyway, problem solved.

Yeah ill just trade it in,at the moment the rifles useless, ill just have to go without the moderator but that will limit my season further.:mad::(

Grizzly 45 · 30-12-2018 4:57am

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Yeah ill just trade it in, the moment the rifles useless, ill just have to go without the moderator but that will limit my season further.:mad::(

Fk that!I'd go back to that gun dealer and wear the barrel off his head while telling him that his pal down at Johnny Fuksticks cattle grate engineering works&gunsmiths, has made a complete bollix of your rifle threading job,and that he is going to fix it by paying the bill for a barrel recut thread and crown with a professional gunsmith of your choice!Oh yeah as it is now too short,you 'll have to get an application in for a restricted lic with the chief because of this incompetence,of which your good reason will be idiot gunsmithing at large. Or you have to invest in the above re-cutting,rethreading and recrowning, along with now permanently mounting the can to the barrel to get it back to legal unrestricted barre length. Make sure it is a disassemble model silencer, so you can clean it and the barrel.

Another reason as to why gunsmithing should be a guild apprenticeship trade here in Ireland,and not just handed out on the assumption that all gun dealers are qualified gunsmiths.

PS if you do sell it on after the season. Please let us know here what rifle it is?So that none of us mugs pick it up and think we are getting a bargain! That rifle should sit on that dealers rack until he goes out of business to remind him of [1] his greed and [2] not everyone who has a lathe can thread gun barrels.

Uinseann_16 · 30-12-2018 6:38am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Fk that!I'd go back to that gun dealer and wear the barrel off his head while telling him that his pal down at Johnny Fuksticks cattle grate engineering works&gunsmiths, has made a complete bollix of your rifle threading job,and that he is going to fix it by paying the bill for a barrel recut thread and crown with a professional gunsmith of your choice!Oh yeah as it is now too short,you 'll have to get an application in for a restricted lic with the chief because of this incompetence,of which your good reason will be idiot gunsmithing at large. Or you have to invest in the above re-cutting,rethreading and recrowning, along with now permanently mounting the can to the barrel to get it back to legal unrestricted barre length. Make sure it is a disassemble model silencer, so you can clean it and the barrel.

Another reason as to why gunsmithing should be a guild apprenticeship trade here in Ireland,and not just handed out on the assumption that all gun dealers are qualified gunsmiths.

PS if you do sell it on after the season. Please let us know here what rifle it is?So that none of us mugs pick it up and think we are getting a bargain! That rifle should sit on that dealers rack until he goes out of business to remind him of [1] his greed and [2] not everyone who has a lathe can thread gun barrels.

Id say the dealer i bought it off will have no problem taking it back, it was in his gun room as a trade in so whoever originally had it cheeped, pay peanuts get monkeys i suppose:rolleyes:
Its just the time it will take to get the rifle substituted my local gardai must've taken their Christmas break early... ive been waiting for a shotgun licence since the end of october:o

Uinseann_16 · 30-12-2018 6:46am

Ive decided to get rid of it, i just dont want the rifle in my cabinet god only knows what could've happened had if i had a bad baffle strike
It'll ruin my season but id rather be safe than sorry, ive pushed my luck enough with this rifle i wont even chance it without the mod on..:(

aaakev · 30-12-2018 10:45am

Im confused, were you using a mod before ya got the new one a few weeks ago or shooting without one?

Dont let it ruin your season lad, change it but keep shooting until ya get the new gun.

Pain in the feckin face though about the threads.... butchers

meathstevie · 30-12-2018 10:51am

Bring it back to whatever shop done the job and demand the rifle to be fitted with a new barrel and reproofed since you brought it in with a perfectly functioning barrel and in proof.

The alternative is a secondhand .308 of similar value as yours before it was destroyed.

aaakev · 30-12-2018 10:57am

meathstevie wrote: »

Bring it back to whatever shop done the job and demand the rifle to be fitted with a new barrel and reproofed since you brought it in with a perfectly functioning barrel and in proof.

The alternative is a secondhand .308 of similar value as yours before it was destroyed.

I dont think it was the OP who got the work done but the previous owner. Absolutely zero comeback from whoever did the job

meathstevie · 30-12-2018 11:06am

Did this problem only surface with a change of moderator or when screwing a moderator on the threads the first time ?

If it's the first time a mod was screwed on those threads and the problem became apparent then the rifle wasn't fit for purpose.

cookimonster · 30-12-2018 11:17am

Sorry to hear about this, but have you shot this without the mod since the problem has started?

Absolutely go back to the RFD if the issue is the threading, but don't let your season be ruined, a pair of ear defenders will sort you out and as for your stalking buddies, unless it's a conditions of your permissions they should be accomadating.

It's the other way around for me, I was the only one using a mod and everyone else didn't, now I spend most of my time stalking light weight without a mod and still shoot plenty. All of us have had plenty at least 1 double kills and some more during this season alone.

It's a PITA but don't let your setback stop you from finishing out the season. If the gun shoots straight unmoded then hunt on and then get onto the case after the season, no sense in compounding your sorrows. Just think of it as finishing out your season with your rifle as if you were planning a new project for the next season.

cookimonster · 30-12-2018 11:29am

Just one or two questions?
What range were you zeroing the mod at when you got the keyhole?
Did the bullets penatrate the target board?
What size is your target?
What ammo was the rifle orginally zeroed with and did you use this with the mod for the rezero?

Uinseann_16 · 30-12-2018 1:37pm

cookimonster wrote: »

Just one or two questions?
What range were you zeroing the mod at when you got the keyhole?
Did the bullets penatrate the target board?
What size is your target?
What ammo was the rifle orginally zeroed with and did you use this with the mod for the rezero?

Key-holing at 50 yards with the S&B and more recently at 25 yards with the Hornady steel match
The bullets did indeed penetrate the board(ploughed the field too)
Target is approx 45cmX100cm
The rifle was zeroed with two different ammo types previously without a mod
Hornady steel match and Hornady 165gr SSTs no issues without the mod at all
Ive just mounted the mod there were no issues previous to the attachment of the mod the rifle is actually a good shooter normally:o

Uinseann_16 · 30-12-2018 1:58pm

aaakev wrote: »

Im confused, were you using a mod before ya got the new one a few weeks ago or shooting without one?

Dont let it ruin your season lad, change it but keep shooting until ya get the new gun.

Pain in the feckin face though about the threads.... butchers

Didnt have a mod on previously which limited where i could shoot so i bought a mod and just got around to putting it on in the last two weeks changed ammo thinking it was the problem but its just the threading

juice1304 · 30-12-2018 3:28pm

if your barrel is long enough chop off the terrible thread job and have someone cut it properly. I wouldnt do it through a shop unless they are doing it themselves and can tell you how they are going to do it. Then id send the invoice to the shop you originally had do it.

Uinseann_16 · 30-12-2018 4:00pm

juice1304 wrote: »

if your barrel is long enough chop off the terrible thread job and have someone cut it properly. I wouldnt do it through a shop unless they are doing it themselves and can tell you how they are going to do it. Then id send the invoice to the shop you originally had do it.

The previous owner got the threading done and it was cut back to 20" from 22" during that job..... So no more can be cut the only option is to bore out the mod to allow more clearance. At this point I'll just trade it in for a new rifle where I don't have to worry about what some kitchen gunsmith did to it.

clivej · 30-12-2018 5:20pm

Take it back. Get the thread cut off and rethreaded.

cookimonster · 30-12-2018 6:53pm

Is it definitely a 30 calibre mod?

ayagerard · 31-12-2018 11:01am

another question for you was the ASE Ultra Northstar. new when you bought it as above is it the write caliber what tread is cut on the rifle
( are you happy with the groups, rifle, without the mod on )

Cass · 31-12-2018 12:51pm

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

My guess is a baffle strike of some sorts but theres no sign of one on the moderator at all..???

You most likely won't see it. Northstar mods don't break down for cleaning so no way unless you have access to a borescope.

I've have this twice myself and it was baffle strike. Both times it struck the baffle on the inside of the baffle so a visual inspection showed nothing. My solution was to drill out the mod and it resolved the issue immediately.

I'm not a machinist so i could be wrong on some terminology so bear with me.

When threading a barrel the person doing it needs to check the outside of the barrel compared tot he bore. Most rifle barrels, except some of the really top of the range custom ones, have a variation between the muzzle and the chamber. Its a "run off" as such meaning the barrel is slightly "bowed". This can be as little as 5 thousandths of an inch up to 60+.

I seen a chap once with a "ready to fit" barrel, which i told him not to buy, and he was 4 feet left of the target at 100 yards and could not get enough adjustment on the scope to dial onto the target. The reason was the barrel was not timed and the centre bore had such a large amount of variance compared to the outside of the barrel that it was effectively curving so far tot he left there is no way to fix it.

This is not uncommon, but most gunsmiths use barrels with a very small amount of variance in the bore and they'll time it so that the "curve" is going upward.

The reason i mention this is if a gunsmith threads the barrel based on the run off of the outside of the barrel, without looking at the bore, then the threading could be perfect for the outside, but not the bore which the bullet actually travels down. IOW most good gunsmiths will use a guide rod on the bore and take the measurements from it rather than the outside. I've seen this done and as the barrel spins in the lathe you can see a slight "wobble" in the barrel, but the threading is perfect to the bore, and so the threading looks "off" or imperfect on the outside, but there is no issue with clipping.

TL:DR. Bore scope the mod, look for slight nicks, and if you're happy doing it drill out the mod from the probable 9.5mm it is to about 11mm but make sure the drill is perfectly centred and taking a bit of all the hole and not just one side. IOW use a bench press or similar to align it perfectly. If you're not sure then go to someone with the right tools and have them do it.

Uinseann_16 · 31-12-2018 3:09pm

Cass wrote: »

You most likely won't see it. Northstar mods don't break down for cleaning so no way unless you have access to a borescope.

I've have this twice myself and it was baffle strike. Both times it struck the baffle on the inside of the baffle so a visual inspection showed nothing. My solution was to drill out the mod and it resolved the issue immediately.

I'm not a machinist so i could be wrong on some terminology so bear with me.

When threading a barrel the person doing it needs to check the outside of the barrel compared tot he bore. Most rifle barrels, except some of the really top of the range custom ones, have a variation between the muzzle and the chamber. Its a "run off" as such meaning the barrel is slightly "bowed". This can be as little as 5 thousandths of an inch up to 60+.

I seen a chap once with a "ready to fit" barrel, which i told him not to buy, and he was 4 feet left of the target at 100 yards and could not get enough adjustment on the scope to dial onto the target. The reason was the barrel was not timed and the centre bore had such a large amount of variance compared to the outside of the barrel that it was effectively curving so far tot he left there is no way to fix it.

This is not uncommon, but most gunsmiths use barrels with a very small amount of variance in the bore and they'll time it so that the "curve" is going upward.

The reason i mention this is if a gunsmith threads the barrel based on the run off of the outside of the barrel, without looking at the bore, then the threading could be perfect for the outside, but not the bore which the bullet actually travels down. IOW most good gunsmiths will use a guide rod on the bore and take the measurements from it rather than the outside. I've seen this done and as the barrel spins in the lathe you can see a slight "wobble" in the barrel, but the threading is perfect to the bore, and so the threading looks "off" or imperfect on the outside, but there is no issue with clipping.

TL:DR. Bore scope the mod, look for slight nicks, and if you're happy doing it drill out the mod from the probable 9.5mm it is to about 11mm but make sure the drill is perfectly centred and taking a bit of all the hole and not just one side. IOW use a bench press or similar to align it perfectly. If you're not sure then go to someone with the right tools and have them do it.

Bored out the moderator from the original 8.43mm to 8.65mm stopped the keyholing i may bore it out to 9.00-.9.50 just to be safe
I could indeed notice a "shiny" spot on the last baffle inside the mod which i assume was copper from the bullet
Spent most of lastnight trying to figure it out i checked the mod with a endoscope too same with the rifle barrel

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A heartbreaking end to a rifle, and a deer season?

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