So the big question, is VRT an illegal tax?

road_high · 24-12-2018 05:16PM

bazz26 wrote: »

This topic has been discussed plenty of times. There is nothing illegal about VRT, it's a registration tax (hence the name) which is perfectly legitimate despite claims to the contrary. Other EU countries have it also and some charge a lot more than Ireland, Denmark for example.

If it was illegal wouldn't you think that someone would have successfully challenged it by now?

I think several have a similar tax. As you say Denmark’s is crazy and think there’s a fairly steep one in Holland too.
Small cars dominate the sales charts in Denmark for this reason- I think the little Peugeot 108 is one of the best sellers whereas it barely registers here. No one would bother over a 208.

wally79 · 24-12-2018 05:17PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Increase tax on fossil fuels. It's win win.

It makes vehicles cheaper to buy but taxes the use of the vehicles. That gives incentive to use public transport or adopt electric or low emission vehicles. It promotes change to more sound technologies.

That doesn’t cover the shortfall it increases it.

Revenue will need to start finding creative ways to tax electric cars as they increase in number. Most of the cost of fuel is tax and that money needs to come from somewhere

road_high · 24-12-2018 05:24PM

wally79 wrote: »

That doesn’t cover the shortfall it increases it.

Revenue will need to start finding creative ways to tax electric cars as they increase in number. Most of the cost of fuel is tax and that money needs to come from somewhere

I can’t see the tax free incentives lasting on EVs. As they grow more popular it’ll mean a massive hole in tax revenues. In vrt, bik and fuel excise.

TheBoyConor · 24-12-2018 05:40PM

wally79 wrote: »

That doesn’t cover the shortfall it increases it.

Revenue will need to start finding creative ways to tax electric cars as they increase in number. Most of the cost of fuel is tax and that money needs to come from somewhere

Just tax fossil fuels of all kinds until the shortfall is made up. Not just transport fuels but also power generation and heating fossil fuels.

Cigarettes could take another €5 tax per pack.

Congestion charges for single occupant private vehicles in city centres.

Tax packaging and waste generation so as to incentivise reduction, reuse and recycling in that hierarchy.

Higher development contributions/taxes on one off houses or developments which are not in keeping with a sustainability principles, ie, out of town shopping centres or other sprawl type developemnts.

Any non-sustainable activities should be taxed to discourage them.

24-12-2018 05:52PM

The killer (perhaps literally) is that extra safety features are VRT/VAT applied.

road_high · 24-12-2018 05:57PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The killer (perhaps literally) is that extra safety features are VRT/VAT applied.

That still the case? I remember the SIMI lobbying about it years back. Shocking of the attitude and disconnect in state appendages.

TheBoyConor · 24-12-2018 06:04PM

Thinking on this further I come more towards the conclusion that what is the actual issue with VRT? Our roads and streets are chocked full of cars and it is tortuous to go into a city centre anywhere as you are doging pricks in cars and fumes, noise etc. The last thing we need is more cars. If VRT discourages the purchase of some cars then it is a good thing. Use of public transport and car pooling is what we should be pushing rather than making it wasier and cheaper for people to own cars.

24-12-2018 06:23PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Thinking on this further I come more towards the conclusion that what is the actual issue with VRT? Our roads and streets are chocked full of cars and it is tortuous to go into a city centre anywhere as you are doging pricks in cars and fumes, noise etc. The last thing we need is more cars. If VRT discourages the purchase of some cars then it is a good thing. Use of public transport and car pooling is what we should be pushing rather than making it wasier and cheaper for people to own cars.

It discourages the purchase of newer and safer (often quieter) cars.
Car ownership is a necessity given the complete under funding of basic public transport infrastucture.

Taking cars out of the mix will not help, with out this being addressed and a drive to have people living in city centre high density (and not forcing people into a 2 hour commute)

bazz26 · 24-12-2018 07:47PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Just tax fossil fuels of all kinds until the shortfall is made up. Not just transport fuels but also power generation and heating fossil fuels.

Cigarettes could take another €5 tax per pack.

Congestion charges for single occupant private vehicles in city centres.

Tax packaging and waste generation so as to incentivise reduction, reuse and recycling in that hierarchy.

Higher development contributions/taxes on one off houses or developments which are not in keeping with a sustainability principles, ie, out of town shopping centres or other sprawl type developemnts.

Any non-sustainable activities should be taxed to discourage them.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Thinking on this further I come more towards the conclusion that what is the actual issue with VRT? Our roads and streets are chocked full of cars and it is tortuous to go into a city centre anywhere as you are doging pricks in cars and fumes, noise etc. The last thing we need is more cars. If VRT discourages the purchase of some cars then it is a good thing. Use of public transport and car pooling is what we should be pushing rather than making it wasier and cheaper for people to own cars.

This may come as a shock to you, swimming inside your little goldfish bowl but not everyone lives or works in a city. Best leave the brain cool down for a while as it seems to be overheating.

cfuserkildare · 24-12-2018 07:51PM

From memory,
I think the Irish Government is fined €100 per instance of VRT being paid.

TireeTerror · 24-12-2018 07:58PM

cfuserkildare wrote: »

From memory,
I think the Irish Government is fined €100 per instance of VRT being paid.

I am fairly sure that your memory is based on fictional information.

Markcheese · 24-12-2018 08:26PM

Pkiernan wrote: »

Perhaps cut dole?

Or our pension maybe?
Or children's allowance?
Ect..
Currently vrt is very low on electric cars...

Guy:Incognito · 25-12-2018 01:26AM

cfuserkildare wrote: »

From memory,
I think the Irish Government is fined €100 per instance of VRT being paid.

Fined by who? The Eu?

If that was true thered be a big, easy to find number on the countries balance sheet marked "eu vrt fines" and would appear in every internet post, blog, Facebook and tweet about the illegality of vrt. Yet no one who claims the fines exist has ever shown any proof.............

gooch2k9 · 25-12-2018 01:32AM

It's a registration charge. Fine. In that case why does it cost more to register a higher value vehicle(newer) than a lower value vehicle(older). Importing to the UK incurs a fixed charge of £55 plus the first years tax. Beyond that I have no issue with it. From reading the thread earlier, and further googling, Denmark is crazy!

bazz26 · 25-12-2018 01:45AM

If you want things exactly the same as the UK then have a look at their property tax compared to ours. Grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Atlantic Dawn · 25-12-2018 01:47AM

The fun with VRT will really start if Brexit actually happens with a hard brexit, government coffers will be destroyed.

gooch2k9 · 25-12-2018 01:48AM

bazz26 wrote: »

If you want things exactly the same as the UK then have a look at their property tax compared to ours. Grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I'm renting in NI so I don't see rates etc., but I certainly do not want things the same as UK. I just used that as an example I know. A registration charge should be a fixed amount, to cover the cost of registration/administration(plus a bit on the side if required).

bazz26 · 25-12-2018 01:54AM

The registration charge is proportional to the market value of the car being registered so that the guy bringing in a 100k Merc pays more than the guy bringing in a 10k Micra. We already have people up in arms about the guy with the 100k Merc paying the same rate of motor tax as the Micra owner.

gooch2k9 · 25-12-2018 02:02AM

bazz26 wrote: »

The registration charge is proportional to the market value of the car being registered so that the guy bringing in a 100k Merc pays more than the guy bringing in a 10k Micra. We already have people up in arms about the guy with the 100k Merc paying the same rate of motor tax as the Micra owner.

I can understand the viewpoint of those regarding the tax. Although living in NI I wouldn't know if it is likely a 100k Mercedes will pay the same as a Micra(I appreciate the extremes chosen). If so the system needs evaluating.

Beyond that, as far as VRT is concerned, if it was an import tax I feel the value is relevant. Calling it a registration tax I can't see how value is relevant.

fullstop · 25-12-2018 03:19AM

bazz26 wrote: »

This topic has been discussed plenty of times. There is nothing illegal about VRT, it's a registration tax (hence the name) which is perfectly legitimate despite claims to the contrary. Other EU countries have it also and some charge a lot more than Ireland, Denmark for example.

If it was illegal wouldn't you think that someone would have successfully challenged it by now?

Correct, go and try to buy/register a big engine or ‘performance’ car in The Netherlands and you won’t be whinging about VRT.

Atlantic Dawn · 25-12-2018 04:52AM

fullstop wrote: »

Correct, go and try to buy/register a big engine or ‘performance’ car in The Netherlands and you won’t be whinging about VRT.

How much dole and state pension do they get?

Marcusm · 25-12-2018 11:15AM

NIMAN wrote: »

I hear you Bazz, but when you have heard work colleagues say on more than one occasion "its an illegal tax and Ireland get a big fine every year from the EU because of it, but they stick with it cos it brings in more than the fine", it can get tiresome.

Do you see many UK/NI reg's down that far south?

As with much work banter, it is utterly untrue.

Pkiernan · 25-12-2018 11:30AM

Markcheese wrote: »

Or our pension maybe?
Or children's allowance?
Ect..
Currently vrt is very low on electric cars...

No, just dole would do it.
Or the long term wontworks could pull us around on rickshaws.

Homer · 26-12-2018 01:12AM

Pkiernan wrote: »

No, just dole would do it.
Or the long term wontworks could pull us around on rickshaws.

If you ever decide to run for government I’ll vote for you if you pass that :pac:

fullstop · 26-12-2018 01:28PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

How much dole and state pension do they get?

Which has what to do with the price of a car?

mikeecho · 26-12-2018 01:52PM

antodeco wrote: »

Combine VRT and Motor Tax into fuel costs. I honestly don't know why it hasn't been done yet.

It was done, back in the 70's by then Taoiseach Jack Lynch.
He abolished motor tax, and added a few pence to fuel.
Guess what.. it was reintroduced, and the few pence stayed.

Another example.
Guernsey abolished motor tax, added it to fuel, and now their Parliament wants to reintroduce motor tax.

As for VRT, if I remember correctly, it was Duty that was deemed illegal, so it was replaced with a similar, but different tax Vehicle Registration Tax... technically not an import tax.

If Nissan or Toyota set up a plant here, VRT would still apply to every car coming off the production line that was for the irish market.

whiterebel · 26-12-2018 10:27PM

mikeecho wrote: »

As for VRT, if I remember correctly, it was Duty that was deemed illegal, so it was replaced with a similar, but different tax Vehicle Registration Tax... technically not an import tax.

Spot on. Not allowed to charge Duty on a EU transaction, so they just changed it to VRT. It would have been illegal to charge Duty. I think that’s where the confusion comes from.

NIMAN · 26-12-2018 11:57PM

There was a well known campaigner up here in Donegal who had 10000 people on his Abolish VRT Facebook group, and the comments section was always full of mistruths and nonsense abiut the fines Ireland got each and every year.

They often talked about taking it to court to prove it was illegal. But don't think anyone ever did.

It seems to have faded away, and said campaigner has now moved on to other things.

As I often say to people when the argument starts, it may be an immoral tax, but it's not an illegal tax.

bazz26 · 27-12-2018 12:09AM

A facebook group - full of barstool legal experts of course - enough said.

whiterebel · 27-12-2018 11:03AM

NIMAN wrote: »

There was a well known campaigner up here in Donegal who had 10000 people on his Abolish VRT Facebook group, and the comments section was always full of mistruths and nonsense abiut the fines Ireland got each and every year.

They often talked about taking it to court to prove it was illegal. But don't think anyone ever did.

It seems to have faded away, and said campaigner has now moved on to other things.

As I often say to people when the argument starts, it may be an immoral tax, but it's not an illegal tax.

I think the end of that was when the Female FB warrior told all on sundry on the Customs programme that it was illegal. They weren’t long putting her straight, and she coughed up.

So the big question, is VRT an illegal tax?

Comments