So the big question, is VRT an illegal tax?

NIMAN

As someone who lives close to the border, I see loads of NI and UK reg cars driving around locally, and parked up in many driveways around Donegal.

Same thing happens all over the country by the way, but obviously the border counties probably have a higher number.

Now, we have had a big anti-VRT debate up here for many years, and with social media it got a lot of backing from those who claimed it was an illegal tax that the Irish government got fined for annually by Brussels. I am still, to this day, getting work colleagues spinning me this line.

I have tried to read up on this, and cannot find evidence of this fine that the country receive annually. Nor can I find any person who has challenged it in a court and won, otherwise I'd be driving an NI car myself, and save a fortune.

So does any of the experts on here know what the craic is with VRT?
Is the country fined for it? (I know other countries in EU also have reg tax)
Are the Customs personnel on the border acting illegally?

Triangle

NIMAN wrote: »

As someone who lives close to the border, I see loads of NI and UK reg cars driving around locally, and parked up in many driveways around Donegal.

Same thing happens all over the country by the way, but obviously the border counties probably have a higher number.

Now, we have had a big anti-VRT debate up here for many years, and with social media it got a lot of backing from those who claimed it was an illegal tax that the Irish government got fined for annually by Brussels. I am still, to this day, getting work colleagues spinning me this line.

I have tried to read up on this, and cannot find evidence of this fine that the country receive annually. Nor can I find any person who has challenged it in a court and won, otherwise I'd be driving an NI car myself, and save a fortune.

So does any of the experts on here know what the craic is with VRT?
Is the country fined for it? (I know other countries in EU also have reg tax)
Are the Customs personnel on the border acting illegally?

The Eu ruled it was illegal. But it's Irish law so the customs guys are not acting illegally. Until the Eu pushes the ruling....itll remain sadly.
Not sure if a court case might be upheld in Ireland, but it probably would if taken to the eu. It'd cost way more than paying the vrt though....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi0l5eombjfAhVQrxoKHdQRBs4QzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rte.ie%2Fnews%2F2017%2F0919%2F905877-vehicle-registration-tax%2F&psig=AOvVaw1pNIEqrxFgq5MDkPAiprkp&ust=1545731665907618

Edit: my bad. This is a ruling on VRT on lease/hire vechicles

Here's a better understanding of where we sit currently.
https://www.motorcheck.ie/blog/is-vrt-a-legal-tax/

NIMAN

Is that not VRT on lease and hire vehicles only though?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0919/905877-vehicle-registration-tax/

drunkmonkey

Don't think we're fined, the snakes switched it from an import tax to a registration tax or something like that to circumvent the number 1 pillar we should be entitled to as EU citizens.

rn

According to that link, they didn't find the tax itself illegal.

They found in the case where you are leasing cars from North into the Republic, the full VRT amount has to be paid. This prevents leasing services in the North competing with car hire in Republic. If we had a way to temporarily pay VRT, everything would be hunky dory from EU point of view.

That's my interpretation of link you sent.

McGrath5

In the unlikely event of this tax been scraped, what other tax would you like to see raised to make up for the revenue short fall?

Isambard

what difference would it make? Get rid of VRT and taxation in some other area would have to increase.

drunkmonkey

McGrath5 wrote: »

In the unlikely event of this tax been scraped, what other tax would you like to see raised to make up for the revenue short fall?

There's no need to raise taxes, proper control of the public finances is what's needed. They over run in the children's hospital and the HSE budget is equivalent to 6yrs revenue from VRT.

Dravokivich

It doesnt matter about VRT. If you are resident here, you aren't legally able to own a foreign registered car.

drunkmonkey

Dravokivich wrote: »

It doesnt matter about VRT. If you are resident here, you aren't legally able to own a foreign registered car.

The 'four freedoms' of the European Union are the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders. ... The freedoms, which are enshrined in EU treaties, aim to remove trade barriers and harmonise national rules at a EU level

I don't see how VRT is allowed under that freedom.

vandriver

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The 'four freedoms' of the European Union are the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders. ... The freedoms, which are enshrined in EU treaties, aim to remove trade barriers and harmonise national rules at a EU level

I don't see how VRT is allowed under that freedom.

You can bring a car into Ireland from any EU country,no bother.Theres your freedom.
You can't drive it as an Irish citizen unless it's registered here.

Pkiernan

McGrath5 wrote: »

In the unlikely event of this tax been scraped, what other tax would you like to see raised to make up for the revenue short fall?

Perhaps cut dole?

NIMAN

This is already starting to go off tangent!

I wasn't advocating getting rid of it and the problem of filling the space it will leave in the Gov coffers, I was simply asking if there is any proof that Ireland as a state is fined annually by the EU due to it being an illegal tax?

Personally I don't think we are, as other countries also have registration taxes (Holland, Denmark iirc), and its just the social media mob peddling fake news to suit an agenda.

The thing that annoys me about those who have moved from NI to RoI to live and still complain about it, is that they are allowed to move their 1st vehicle to Irish plates free of charge, but they didn't bother then moan when the Customs personnel stop them and give them hassle.

antodeco

McGrath5 wrote: »

In the unlikely event of this tax been scraped, what other tax would you like to see raised to make up for the revenue short fall?

Combine VRT and Motor Tax into fuel costs. I honestly don't know why it hasn't been done yet.

Pkiernan

VRT and the new motor tax regime will be a real test of Northern nationalist loyalty in the event if a united Ireland!

When they're paying 2 grand tax instead of 400 they may feel a bit different!

bazz26

This topic has been discussed plenty of times. There is nothing illegal about VRT, it's a registration tax (hence the name) which is perfectly legitimate despite claims to the contrary. Other EU countries have it also and some charge a lot more than Ireland, Denmark for example.

If it was illegal wouldn't you think that someone would have successfully challenged it by now?

TheBoyConor

McGrath5 wrote: »

In the unlikely event of this tax been scraped, what other tax would you like to see raised to make up for the revenue short fall?

Increase tax on fossil fuels. It's win win.

It makes vehicles cheaper to buy but taxes the use of the vehicles. That gives incentive to use public transport or adopt electric or low emission vehicles. It promotes change to more sound technologies.

NIMAN

I hear you Bazz, but when you have heard work colleagues say on more than one occasion "its an illegal tax and Ireland get a big fine every year from the EU because of it, but they stick with it cos it brings in more than the fine", it can get tiresome.

Do you see many UK/NI reg's down that far south?

bazz26

Not a huge amount down here outside of those who imported them from the UK to re-register them here. Our tarmac technician friends come home to their holy land of Rathkeale this time of year alright so you see them about in their less common UK plate stuff that they rent for the holidays.

Supergurrier

Looking at importing a car from uk late in 2019

UK price £15995
So about €17800
Vrt on calculator is €7900

So a sub 16k sterling car becomes a 26k euro car.

It's daylight robbery

bazz26

You could potentially have to pay VAT on top of that too post Brexit.

mfceiling

vandriver wrote: »

You can bring a car into Ireland from any EU country,no bother.Theres your freedom.
You can't drive it as an Irish citizen unless it's registered here.

Is a Polish lad driving a Polish registered car here still not a Polish citizen? He won't be an irish citizen?

Is the charging of vat on top of VRT illegal as basically you are being taxed twice?

Damien360

bazz26 wrote: »

This topic has been discussed plenty of times. There is nothing illegal about VRT, it's a registration tax (hence the name) which is perfectly legitimate despite claims to the contrary. Other EU countries have it also and some charge a lot more than Ireland, Denmark for example.

If it was illegal wouldn't you think that someone would have successfully challenged it by now?

I have met a couple of Danish work colleagues and it bugs them no end. German imports are common and lots of people seem to have 2 addresses (similar to NI/ROI situation). Looking at Toyota Denmark, the pricing is higher than ireland. CHR starts from 240,000kr which is about 32,000 Euro. Ireland price starts at 27,000.

They pay 50% tax but everything is included and the access is not delayed to the services required. There is a max you will pay for your healthcare which is the same for everyone and after that no charge for any given year (Sweden is same). Wouldn't be accepted here by those who rock up to A&E with minor ailments. Dentist is under private insurance and costs a fortune. I am taking my swedish and Danish colleagues at their word here.

If we removed VRT in the morning, the cost would have to be covered elsewhere. There is only so much to be gained from efficiency. A wholesale change of the system would have to occur to reduce costs. We missed the chance on the last recession, might get another chance if Brexit goes tits up.

Atlantic Dawn

Something has to pay for the 2nd highest state pension in the EU.

I could import a BMW M5 from UK and not pay a single cent in VRT if I was using it on my private race track.

drunkmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Don't think we're fined, the snakes switched it from an import tax to a registration tax or something like that to circumvent the number 1 pillar we should be entitled to as EU citizens.

There should be no problem with either really from the EUs point of view as long as the tax wasn't designed to manipulate buyers for the benefit of domestic producers.
If for example France put an import tax on cars but not on ones made in France that would be illegal.
Ireland putting a tax on all cars isn't illegal.

Atlantic Dawn

One thing that puzzles me about the VRT calculator is it asks if the vehicle was originally registered in Japan, why does it do this as VAT would be completely seperate issue on a used car imported, why is Japan singled out?

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

One thing that puzzles me about the VRT calculator is it asks if the vehicle was originally registered in Japan, why does it do this as VAT would be completely seperate issue on a used car imported, why is Japan singled out?

Biggest source of cars which wouldn't have originally been registered in the EU?
Different specs possibly for the same cars?

Isn't it not illegal as it is a registration tax, not import tax. Just so happens that all cars are imported to Ireland.

If Ford decided to reopen the Cork plant you would still pay VRT on the car made in Cork

Guy:Incognito

antodeco wrote: »

Combine VRT and Motor Tax into fuel costs. I honestly don't know why it hasn't been done yet.

Have you costed it to see how much the fuel would go up by? Presumably we just write off any petrol stations within a few miles of the border as they just go out of business.

bazz26

How to you cost VRT into fuel? Currently I buy a car with VRT of 5k, someone else buys a car with VRT of 2k. How do I pay more in the price of fuel than the other person if you include VRT? What about the guy who bought a car with VRT of over 10k? And what if I or the other guy gets fuel over the border instead? It hasn't been done because it just wouldn't work.

road_high

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There's no need to raise taxes, proper control of the public finances is what's needed. They over run in the children's hospital and the HSE budget is equivalent to 6yrs revenue from VRT.

If they didn’t hand bonuses to welfare recipients for nothing they’d save tens of millions straight off.
The amount of wreckless public spending in Ireland is disturbing. I’d have been quite happy for the IMF to take over our full budgets for 5 years and apply a bit of common sense and efficiency

road_high

bazz26 wrote: »

This topic has been discussed plenty of times. There is nothing illegal about VRT, it's a registration tax (hence the name) which is perfectly legitimate despite claims to the contrary. Other EU countries have it also and some charge a lot more than Ireland, Denmark for example.

If it was illegal wouldn't you think that someone would have successfully challenged it by now?

I think several have a similar tax. As you say Denmark’s is crazy and think there’s a fairly steep one in Holland too.
Small cars dominate the sales charts in Denmark for this reason- I think the little Peugeot 108 is one of the best sellers whereas it barely registers here. No one would bother over a 208.

wally79

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Increase tax on fossil fuels. It's win win.

It makes vehicles cheaper to buy but taxes the use of the vehicles. That gives incentive to use public transport or adopt electric or low emission vehicles. It promotes change to more sound technologies.

That doesn’t cover the shortfall it increases it.

Revenue will need to start finding creative ways to tax electric cars as they increase in number. Most of the cost of fuel is tax and that money needs to come from somewhere

road_high

wally79 wrote: »

That doesn’t cover the shortfall it increases it.

Revenue will need to start finding creative ways to tax electric cars as they increase in number. Most of the cost of fuel is tax and that money needs to come from somewhere

I can’t see the tax free incentives lasting on EVs. As they grow more popular it’ll mean a massive hole in tax revenues. In vrt, bik and fuel excise.

TheBoyConor

wally79 wrote: »

That doesn’t cover the shortfall it increases it.

Revenue will need to start finding creative ways to tax electric cars as they increase in number. Most of the cost of fuel is tax and that money needs to come from somewhere

Just tax fossil fuels of all kinds until the shortfall is made up. Not just transport fuels but also power generation and heating fossil fuels.

Cigarettes could take another €5 tax per pack.

Congestion charges for single occupant private vehicles in city centres.

Tax packaging and waste generation so as to incentivise reduction, reuse and recycling in that hierarchy.

Higher development contributions/taxes on one off houses or developments which are not in keeping with a sustainability principles, ie, out of town shopping centres or other sprawl type developemnts.

Any non-sustainable activities should be taxed to discourage them.

The killer (perhaps literally) is that extra safety features are VRT/VAT applied.

road_high

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The killer (perhaps literally) is that extra safety features are VRT/VAT applied.

That still the case? I remember the SIMI lobbying about it years back. Shocking of the attitude and disconnect in state appendages.

TheBoyConor

Thinking on this further I come more towards the conclusion that what is the actual issue with VRT? Our roads and streets are chocked full of cars and it is tortuous to go into a city centre anywhere as you are doging pricks in cars and fumes, noise etc. The last thing we need is more cars. If VRT discourages the purchase of some cars then it is a good thing. Use of public transport and car pooling is what we should be pushing rather than making it wasier and cheaper for people to own cars.

TheBoyConor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Thinking on this further I come more towards the conclusion that what is the actual issue with VRT? Our roads and streets are chocked full of cars and it is tortuous to go into a city centre anywhere as you are doging pricks in cars and fumes, noise etc. The last thing we need is more cars. If VRT discourages the purchase of some cars then it is a good thing. Use of public transport and car pooling is what we should be pushing rather than making it wasier and cheaper for people to own cars.

It discourages the purchase of newer and safer (often quieter) cars.
Car ownership is a necessity given the complete under funding of basic public transport infrastucture.


Taking cars out of the mix will not help, with out this being addressed and a drive to have people living in city centre high density (and not forcing people into a 2 hour commute)

bazz26

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Just tax fossil fuels of all kinds until the shortfall is made up. Not just transport fuels but also power generation and heating fossil fuels.

Cigarettes could take another €5 tax per pack.

Congestion charges for single occupant private vehicles in city centres.

Tax packaging and waste generation so as to incentivise reduction, reuse and recycling in that hierarchy.

Higher development contributions/taxes on one off houses or developments which are not in keeping with a sustainability principles, ie, out of town shopping centres or other sprawl type developemnts.

Any non-sustainable activities should be taxed to discourage them.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Thinking on this further I come more towards the conclusion that what is the actual issue with VRT? Our roads and streets are chocked full of cars and it is tortuous to go into a city centre anywhere as you are doging pricks in cars and fumes, noise etc. The last thing we need is more cars. If VRT discourages the purchase of some cars then it is a good thing. Use of public transport and car pooling is what we should be pushing rather than making it wasier and cheaper for people to own cars.

This may come as a shock to you, swimming inside your little goldfish bowl but not everyone lives or works in a city. Best leave the brain cool down for a while as it seems to be overheating.

cfuserkildare

From memory,
I think the Irish Government is fined €100 per instance of VRT being paid.

TireeTerror

cfuserkildare wrote: »

From memory,
I think the Irish Government is fined €100 per instance of VRT being paid.

I am fairly sure that your memory is based on fictional information.

Markcheese

Pkiernan wrote: »

Perhaps cut dole?

Or our pension maybe?
Or children's allowance?
Ect..
Currently vrt is very low on electric cars...

Guy:Incognito

cfuserkildare wrote: »

From memory,
I think the Irish Government is fined €100 per instance of VRT being paid.

Fined by who? The Eu?

If that was true thered be a big, easy to find number on the countries balance sheet marked "eu vrt fines" and would appear in every internet post, blog, Facebook and tweet about the illegality of vrt. Yet no one who claims the fines exist has ever shown any proof.............

gooch2k9

It's a registration charge. Fine. In that case why does it cost more to register a higher value vehicle(newer) than a lower value vehicle(older). Importing to the UK incurs a fixed charge of £55 plus the first years tax. Beyond that I have no issue with it. From reading the thread earlier, and further googling, Denmark is crazy!

bazz26

If you want things exactly the same as the UK then have a look at their property tax compared to ours. Grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Atlantic Dawn

The fun with VRT will really start if Brexit actually happens with a hard brexit, government coffers will be destroyed.

gooch2k9

bazz26 wrote: »

If you want things exactly the same as the UK then have a look at their property tax compared to ours. Grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I'm renting in NI so I don't see rates etc., but I certainly do not want things the same as UK. I just used that as an example I know. A registration charge should be a fixed amount, to cover the cost of registration/administration(plus a bit on the side if required).

bazz26

The registration charge is proportional to the market value of the car being registered so that the guy bringing in a 100k Merc pays more than the guy bringing in a 10k Micra. We already have people up in arms about the guy with the 100k Merc paying the same rate of motor tax as the Micra owner.

gooch2k9

bazz26 wrote: »

The registration charge is proportional to the market value of the car being registered so that the guy bringing in a 100k Merc pays more than the guy bringing in a 10k Micra. We already have people up in arms about the guy with the 100k Merc paying the same rate of motor tax as the Micra owner.

I can understand the viewpoint of those regarding the tax. Although living in NI I wouldn't know if it is likely a 100k Mercedes will pay the same as a Micra(I appreciate the extremes chosen). If so the system needs evaluating.

Beyond that, as far as VRT is concerned, if it was an import tax I feel the value is relevant. Calling it a registration tax I can't see how value is relevant.

fullstop

bazz26 wrote: »

This topic has been discussed plenty of times. There is nothing illegal about VRT, it's a registration tax (hence the name) which is perfectly legitimate despite claims to the contrary. Other EU countries have it also and some charge a lot more than Ireland, Denmark for example.

If it was illegal wouldn't you think that someone would have successfully challenged it by now?

Correct, go and try to buy/register a big engine or ‘performance’ car in The Netherlands and you won’t be whinging about VRT.