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Madeleine McCann

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    #2222
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    I very much doubt anyone thinks the McCanns are guilty of anything just because Kate washed a toy.

    Except for the poster who included this detail in their run down of suspicious behaviour and have yet to get back to me when I’ve asked them to elaborate.

    I can accept we will agree to disagree.


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    #2223
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Something Else
    retro:electro wrote: »
    Expect for the poster who included this detail in their run down of suspicious behaviour and have yet to get back to me when I’ve asked them to elaborate.

    I can accept we will agree to disagree.

    The poster had it in a list of suspicious behaviour. What is suspicious to one, may well not be to someone else. We all think differently about things.

    Some people may have seen cold behaviour as a coping mechanism and not see that as strange at all. It's our own personal perceptions that form the basis of our theories in the absence of proof of anything.


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    #2224
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,950 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    We have a little girl missing. A lot of people were very annoyed/outraged/saddened at the children being left alone and were quick to judge her parents. I think people saw suspicion everywhere, certainly at first. It's the nature of any mystery and that is unlikely to change.

    I very much doubt anyone thinks the McCanns are guilty of anything just because Kate washed a toy. It is a cumulative thing, which is i imagine how most people come to form an opinion and theory.

    For example, a cold demeanor. Not in itself proof of anything but adds to some people's suspicions.

    How'd that 'cold demeanour' as the basis for suspicion pan out in convicting Lindy Chamberlain and her husband for the murder of Azaria?


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    #2225
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Something Else
    cnocbui wrote: »
    How'd that 'cold demeanour' as the basis for suspicion pan out in convicting Lindy Chamberlain and her husband for the murder of Azaria?

    People will always form opinions based on behaviour, sometimes they will be right, sometimes wrong.

    People will judge people on their standard of how they would act and make a judgement call.


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    #2226
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    People forming suspicions based on odd behaviour and forming total fabrications and taking to message boards accusing parents of drugging and body disposal (admittedly) without a shred of proof are two totally different things.


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    #2227
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Something Else
    retro:electro wrote: »
    People forming suspicions based on odd behaviour and forming total fabrications and taking to message boards accusing parents of drugging and body disposal (admittedly) without a shred of proof are two totally different things.

    I understand your annoyance, but again in the absence of proof of an abductor people are going to believe something else may have happened. The fact she is missing and not been seen by anyone since that night means whatever happened to her was most likely sinister in nature.

    Like with any crime, the first suspects are those close to the victim. Given the circumstances of the disappearance (children being left alone), I think the McCanns were always going to have to refute accusations that they were involved.


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    #2228
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    I understand your annoyance, but again in the absence of proof of an abductor people are going to believe something else may have happened.

    I’m not annoyed.
    So in the absence of proof of an abductor what makes sense to you is to substitute that theory and throw around more accusations with even less proof of those?

    Makes sense...
    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    Like with any crime, the first suspects are those close to the victim.

    Yes and they were considered arguido and subsequently lifted. Thus, this baseless insistence they’re involved is futile.


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    #2229
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Something Else
    retro:electro wrote: »
    I’m not annoyed.
    So in the absence of an abductor what makes sense to you is to substitute that theory and throw around more accusations without even more proof of those?

    Makes sense...

    Again we are all entitled to form an opinion. I have mine, one that many on this very thread have also voiced.

    This is a discussion board, and we are all discussing what may have happened the night Madeleine went missing, and in the years since. The fact myself and many others are posting opinions/theories here and haven't been banned means we are posting within accepted guidelines.

    I accept you think it was an abduction. You can't expect others to not voice their opinion on a discussion board, regardless of how fervently you disagree with them.

    With no proof of anything, this is going to continue to be a sad case open to a great deal of debate.


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    #2230
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Again, I’ve never once said you cannot hold certain opinions, that is always going to be the case. I’ve been around here long enough to know the score at this stage.

    However, if you react with such hostility to people questioning your theories (blatant accusations) and wanting links or proof well then maybe that is a reflection on the shaky ground from which your theory (accusation) is built and not a reflection on the poster asking the question.


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    #2231
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Something Else
    retro:electro wrote: »
    Again, I’ve never once said you cannot hold certain opinions, that is always going to be the case. I’ve been around here long enough to know the score at this stage.

    However, if you react with such hostility to people questioning your theories and looking for proof well then maybe that is a reflection on the shaky ground from which your theory is built and not a reflection on the poster asking the question.

    I don't believe I have been hostile at all. I'd say rather reasoned, if in the absence of clarification that is directed at me.

    We are all on shaky ground with regards to our theories. No one has proof of anything.


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    #2232
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    But not everyone is making accusations of parents drugging children and subsequent body disposal.

    Again, we’ll have to leave it there.


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    #2233
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Something Else
    retro:electro wrote: »
    But not everyone is making accusations of drugging children and body disposal.

    Again, we’ll have to leave it there.

    And again, not everyone believes she was sedated, so not everyone is going to say that.

    We are all posting within the guidelines. If you don't agree, that's fine, but it's not up to you to say on a discussion board what should or shouldn't be posted regarding theories.

    It's one thing to not agree, it's another entirely to expect people not to share their opinions. None of us can prove anything so you and your opinion has no more weight than anyone else's on here.


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    #2234
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,730 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    nthclare - Please don't post in this thread again


    I'm lifting this after having discussed with nthclare


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    #2235
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    And again, not everyone believes she was sedated, so not everyone is going to say that.

    You do though. But you have no proof of that.
    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    We are all posting within the guidelines. If you don't agree, that's fine, but it's not up to you to say on a discussion board what should or shouldn't be posted regarding theories.

    It's one thing to not agree, it's another entirely to expect people not to share their opinions. None of us can prove anything so you and your opinion has no more weight than anyone else's on here.

    Can you point me to where I asked you not to discuss your opinions? Only a few days ago I asked you to link something of interest to me which you refused. You are accusing me of trying to back seat moderate the place for expecting you to have some sort of basis that formulates your accusations that Kate and Gerry drugged their child and buried her.
    Asking for proof, a timeline, a link, something, anything that can assist you in your claims is not me trying to silence you. That is me being curious about how you formed your argument. It’s actually the opposite of silencing you when I have routinely given you more room to discuss- the fact you have shut up shop and are refusing is not my problem. No need to get so defensive. But yeah, like I said, we’ll leave it there yeah?


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    #2236
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Something Else
    retro:electro wrote: »
    You do though. But you have no proof of that.



    Can you point me to where I asked you not to discuss your opinions? Only a few days ago I asked you to link something of interest to me which you refused. You are accusing me of trying to back seat moderate the place for expecting you to have some sort of basis that formulates your accusations that Kate and Gerry drugged their child and buried her.
    Asking for proof, a timeline, a link, something, anything that can assist you in your claims is not me trying to silence you. That is me being curious about how you formed your argument. The fact you have shut up shop and are refusing is not my problem. No need to get so defensive. But yeah, like I said, we’ll leave it there yeah?


    I have formed my opinion by reading news articles and forums/blogs like this one . It's how most people have formed their opinion. I am no different to anyone else

    I didn't "refuse" to post anything. I can't remember specific posts or threads I read that made me form an opinion years ago. It wasnt one or two links, but lots of different things that made me raise an eyebrow, made me question if there was more to this mystery than an unseen abductor.

    This case has been pulled apart for decades online. There are even YouTube videos by body language experts.

    So yes, I believe it was an accidental death. I can't post a link/s that will prove this to be what happened. There are however lots of blog articles out there that discuss this theory in depth if you want to look for them.

    Every theory regarding what happened to Madeleine Mccannhas holes in it. It's why this case is open to do many different opinions and interpretations.


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    #2237
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    So no link to where I told you not to discuss your opinions?
    It must be great posting with the luxury of making all the accusations you like and not have to back them up one bit. Again, I’ve actually routinely given you room to elaborate on your beliefs. The fact you refuse to do so is not me silencing you.
    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    Every theory regarding what happened to Madeleine Mccannhas holes in it. It's why this case is open to do many different opinions and interpretations.

    Some don’t blame the parents though. You know, the parents who were considered arguido and then subsequently lifted of the status. The parents of the remaining McCann children who have to read baseless accusations online that their parents drugged and buried their sister. The children some posters here claim to care about.
    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    I have formed my opinion by reading news articles and forums/blogs like this one . It's how most people have formed their opinion. I am no different to anyone else.

    And I’m interested in seeing those news articles and forums which have assisted you in your accusations of drugging and burial.
    It’s how most people have formed their opinion?? Anyone can write a shltty blog post claiming all sorts. I’d like to think most people have formed their opinion through deduction, reason and logic. But then again that might be asking too much.


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    #2238
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Something Else
    retro:electro wrote: »
    So can I ask why they then feel it’s acceptable to make claims surrounding drugging children, accidental death, disposing of her in a gym bag and subsequent and cover up

    You don't think it's acceptable for people to post their opinion when it doesn't tally with yours.i.e. you don't think those opinions should be on here.

    Everyone is entitled to express what they like within the forum guidelines.


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    #2239
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,152 ✭✭✭limnam


    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    You don't think it's acceptable for people to post their opinion when it doesn't tally with yours.i.e. you don't think those opinions should be on here.

    Everyone is entitled to express what they like within the forum guidelines.


    Fairly bizarre that people can claim the McCanns innocence without any proof or evidence yet challenge other theories without proof or evidence


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    #2240
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Ah now at least quote the whole post:
    retro:electro wrote: »
    Most people here agreed with a post stating there was NO PROOF to suggest anyhing happened either way. So can I ask why they then feel it’s acceptable to make claims surrounding drugging children, accidental death, disposing of her in a gym bag and subsequent and cover up?.


    Again, you agree you have no proof. Me then wondering how it is you’ve formulated your theory (accusation) is not me silencing you. It’s asking you to elaborate.


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    #2241
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    limnam wrote: »
    Fairly bizarre that people can claim the McCanns innocence without any proof or evidence yet challenge other theories without proof or evidence

    Yeah that would be because of the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

    :rolleyes:


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    #2242
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Something Else
    retro:electro wrote: »
    Ah now at least quote the whole post:




    Again, you agree you have no proof. Me then wondering how it is you’ve formulated your theory (accusation) is not me silencing you. It’s asking you to elaborate.

    Why did I need the first part of the post? It's quite clear you think opinions of parental involvement shouldn't be on here if they are not substantiated with proof. I.e. you are clearly saying those opinions have no place here. Of course they do. We can all post our opinions.

    You asked me where you said people weren't entitled to express their opinions and I showed you.


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    #2243
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Actually we are not allowed to speculate without proof, it’s in the charter. :)

    You have consistently accused the McCann’s of drugging Madeline and disposing of her body. I have routinely asked what has motivated you to form this opinion, you have routinely refused to elaborate. That is not me telling you what you can and cannot say, that is you refusing to engage further because you have nothing to back up your beliefs. Like I said, that is a reflection on the fragility of your claims and not on me for asking the question.


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    #2244
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,730 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    retro & sunshine - it's going round in circles a bit at this stage. :D
    I don't think there is going to be an agreement, so let's move forward.


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    #2245
    Andy Magic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 610 ✭✭✭Andy Magic


    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    retro & sunshine - it's going round in circles a bit at this stage. :D
    I don't think there is going to be an agreement, so let's move forward.

    Yeah the thread has been derailed at this stage. Maybe this is what someone wanted.


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    #2246
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Andy Magic wrote: »
    Yeah the thread has been derailed at this stage. Maybe this is what someone wanted.

    And posts like this are what, on topic? :confused:


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    #2247
    Kingp35
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,261 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kingp35


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Andy Magic wrote: »
    Yeah the thread has been derailed at this stage. Maybe this is what someone wanted.

    It's posts like this that derail the thread.

    Mod Note: Andy Magic don't post in this thread again.


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    #2248
    flatty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭flatty


    My take on all of this is.
    1. The tapas 9 were more interested in not looking bad for leaving their children unattended than they were in providing evidence after the events of the night, hence the timelines are a little bent. Understandable in some ways at the time, less so once the gravity became clear.
    2. None of them seem particularly pleasant.
    3. Jane Tanner is a very strange person.
    And that's it. What happened to the poor mite, we will likely never know. There is no way on earth that her parents were involved, though I wonder if with hindsight they regret their decision to go against police advice and go public. They have always seemed bullish and confrontational, which is just a coping mechanism I suspect.
    The only options are targeted abduction, botched burglary, or she wandered out and came to harm.


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    #2249
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,508 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Something Else
    flatty wrote: »
    My take on all of this is.
    1. The tapas 9 were more interested in not looking bad for leaving their children unattended than they were in providing evidence after the events of the night, hence the timelines are a little bent. Understandable in some ways at the time, less so once the gravity became clear.
    2. None of them seem particularly pleasant.
    3. Jane Tanner is a very strange person.
    And that's it. What happened to the poor mite, we will likely never know. There is no way on earth that her parents were involved, though I wonder if with hindsight they regret their decision to go against police advice and go public. They have always seemed bullish and confrontational, which is just a coping mechanism I suspect.
    The only options are targeted abduction, botched burglary, or she wandered out and came to harm.

    i dont see anything that would exclude the parents


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    #2250
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    i dont see anything that would exclude the parents

    There is no proof that includes the parents. So logic would dictate that by default, for now, they are excluded.


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    #2251
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,508 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Something Else
    retro:electro wrote: »
    There is no proof that includes the parents. So logic would dictate that by default, for now, they are excluded.

    you cannot rule anyone out until its proven they didnt or couldnt do it.

    surely your more likely to know your attacker (intentional or otherwise)


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