Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

charolais0153 · 14-12-2018 12:15pm

White Clover wrote: »

That's a very negative if not condescending post Buford.
At the meeting that I attended on Wednesday night, there wasn't a mention of ifa or any other farm organisation, no negativity, we don't need it. The only people here posting negative stuff are mad ifa. I have never engaged in ifa bashing on here but I do believe that they and bord bia are just not cutting it anymore. Current beef prices and farmer sentiment are testament to this.

The weekly kill at present is around 40000. History tells us that when the kill goes under 30000, beef price improves significantly.
We need to get 10 to 15 thousand cattle weekly out of the factories hands. They and bord bia have proved that they are incapable of marketing this beef and returning a meaningful price to farmers when the kill goes over 30000.
A man spoke at the meeting, he told us that he has an order for 1250 cattle per week for a start from a client in china. The factories here wont sell him the beef. He also has contacts in thialand and vietnam looking for irish prime beef.
Another person spoke of the demand for Irish beef from the continent and they can't get it either.
Another person spoke about the demand for veal on the continent.
And it was also revealed how dismal bord bia has performed in the UK.

It cant be denied that there is a cosy cartel going on here between retailers and factories, they are collaborating to deny others the opportunity to develop alternative markets for our beef and in my view bord bia are implicit in this too by their sheer failure to do what they are paid to do.

Teagasc have been exposed badly here too, why have we not seen any trials or promotion of veal production?

The people supposed to be leading us, ifa, bord bia and Teagasc have all let us down and shown us all how weak they all are.

It is known that there is enough value in a carcass to pass back a meaningful and profitable margin to the producer.
In my view, we are on the cusp of change, farmers have had enough of others profiteering from their work. All we want is our fair share for the work we have done.

I would ask everyone reading this to get behind this movement, As it stands, farmers dealing individually with factories has not worked. We need to get control of a significant portion of the kill in order to get those supposed to be marketing our beef to sit up and take notice.
"United we stand, divided we fall"

https://t-stor.teagasc.ie/handle/11019/1471

1250 cattle could be worth a quarter of a million,4 weeks cattpe is a million euros . i wouldnt like to be owed 1million by some lad in china tbh.

White Clover · 14-12-2018 12:19pm

charolais0153 wrote: »

https://t-stor.teagasc.ie/handle/11019/1471

1250 cattle could be worth a quarter of a million,4 weeks cattpe is a million euros . i wouldnt like to be owed 1million by some lad in china tbh.

Everything in place, company set up in China, Chinese on the board as per Chinese law, bonding also in place.

cute geoge · 14-12-2018 12:38pm

KISS imo the only way forward is export live out of the country as many as possible and at as young an age a is possible .If this new group came up with more of these live export markets it would be an immediate success then then could concentrate on taking on the meat factories and supermarkets ,With 40000 of a weekly kill ,you could hold back 10000 cattle a week and the factories would still have enough of a supply to not get worried ,what would farmers do with these 10000 cattle ,they would still end up being killed but with bigger price deductions

Buford T. Justice XIX · 14-12-2018 12:48pm

White Clover wrote: »

That's a very negative if not condescending post Buford.
At the meeting that I attended on Wednesday night, there wasn't a mention of ifa or any other farm organisation, no negativity, we don't need it. The only people here posting negative stuff are mad ifa. I have never engaged in ifa bashing on here but I do believe that they and bord bia are just not cutting it anymore. Current beef prices and farmer sentiment are testament to this.

The weekly kill at present is around 40000. History tells us that when the kill goes under 30000, beef price improves significantly.
We need to get 10 to 15 thousand cattle weekly out of the factories hands. They and bord bia have proved that they are incapable of marketing this beef and returning a meaningful price to farmers when the kill goes over 30000.
A man spoke at the meeting, he told us that he has an order for 1250 cattle per week for a start from a client in china. The factories here wont sell him the beef. He also has contacts in thialand and vietnam looking for irish prime beef.
Another person spoke of the demand for Irish beef from the continent and they can't get it either.
Another person spoke about the demand for veal on the continent.
And it was also revealed how dismal bord bia has performed in the UK.

It cant be denied that there is a cosy cartel going on here between retailers and factories, they are collaborating to deny others the opportunity to develop alternative markets for our beef and in my view bord bia are implicit in this too by their sheer failure to do what they are paid to do.

Teagasc have been exposed badly here too, why have we not seen any trials or promotion of veal production?

The people supposed to be leading us, ifa, bord bia and Teagasc have all let us down and shown us all how weak they all are.

It is known that there is enough value in a carcass to pass back a meaningful and profitable margin to the producer.
In my view, we are on the cusp of change, farmers have had enough of others profiteering from their work. All we want is our fair share for the work we have done.

I would ask everyone reading this to get behind this movement, As it stands, farmers dealing individually with factories has not worked. We need to get control of a significant portion of the kill in order to get those supposed to be marketing our beef to sit up and take notice.
"United we stand, divided we fall"

Apologies if it came across as condescending, it certainly wasn't intended that way.

It certainly is my way of looking at it. There's a lot of lads in real life and here as well backing them to achieve something for them and I hope they do.

But 80+ objectives? How is that going to fly? If they go any lower, the majority of lads whose aims are no longer a priority won't be interested in remaining. Why would they, the remaining objectives won't be of much interest to them?

Like I say, I really hope they achieve something, the knock on effects will benefit us all but without the right to organise and protest similar to all other sectors of the country, we're only dancing around the edges.

White Clover · 14-12-2018 12:52pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Apologies if it came across as condescending, it certainly wasn't intended that way.

It certainly is my way of looking at it. There's a lot of lads in real life and here as well backing them to achieve something for them and I hope they do.

But 80+ objectives? How is that going to fly? If they go any lower, the majority of lads whose aims are no longer a priority won't be interested in remaining. Why would they, the remaining objectives won't be of much interest to them?

Like I say, I really hope they achieve something, the knock on effects will benefit us all but without the right to organise and protest similar to all other sectors of the country, we're only dancing around the edges.

There is over 80 points on the plan, tick them off one by one by focusing on one at a time. No one is going to try and get them all implemented at the same time.

patsy_mccabe · 14-12-2018 1:18pm

White Clover wrote: »

.......

The weekly kill at present is around 40000. History tells us that when the kill goes under 30000, beef price improves significantly.
We need to get 10 to 15 thousand cattle weekly out of the factories hands. They and bord bia have proved that they are incapable of marketing this beef and returning a meaningful price to farmers when the kill goes over 30000.
.....

There are two things going on here with cattle numbers. The market for beef is 365 days a year and almost a constant demand. The factory kill numbers more or less confirm this. It's a flat line for the year.
My understanding is the factories commit to certain contracts. When they can't get enough cattle to fill these, they raise the factory price to attract out more. When they get too much, they drop the price. At the end of the day though, they are stil selling into the global market where shortage/scarcity dictate price. When we are exporting 90% of our cattle, exporting more live cattle via calves etc won't make one iota of a difference.

International scarcity of Beef is by far the greatest driver of factory prices here in Ireland.

Wouldnt it be great to see some Chinese conglomerate open a string of factories here. That would shake things up.

White Clover · 14-12-2018 1:23pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

There are two things going on here with cattle numbers. The market for beef is 365 days a year and almost a constant demand. The factory kill numbers more or less confirm this. It's a flat line for the year.
My understanding is the factories commit to certain contracts. When they can't get enough cattle to fill these, they raise the factory price to attract out more. When they get too much, they drop the price. At the end of the day though, they are stil selling into the global market where shortage/scarcity dictate price. When we are exporting 90% of our cattle, exporting more live cattle via calves etc won't make one iota of a difference.
International scarcity of Beef is by far the greatest driver of factory prices here in Ireland.

That's the factories line patsy.
There are other markets looking for our beef. Why dont they sell to these people? They and the retailers are collaborating to keep the market as small as possible. A weak bord bia is allowing this to happen too.

wrangler · 14-12-2018 2:53pm

White Clover wrote: »

Everything in place, company set up in China, Chinese on the board as per Chinese law, bonding also in place.

What's stopping you building a factory.... off with you then.
You want to ask the wool buyers about dealing with China.
Once anyone buys your produce, it's theirs to do what they like,
Even if Bord bia opened up every market, factories don't have to supply them.
Goes back to what I've been saying all along, make them pay a better price.
Everything else will fall into place.
Factories are probably getting a better price than that guy was shouting about or else they didn't trust him.
Shouldn't believe anyone until you've checked it out yourself,

yosemitesam1 · 14-12-2018 2:57pm

White Clover wrote: »

That's the factories line patsy.
There are other markets looking for our beef. Why dont they sell to these people? They and the retailers are collaborating to keep the market as small as possible. A weak bord bia is allowing this to happen too.

Everyone will always tell you they'd love to sell you're product but getting a strong price off them is a another thing altogether. Would be doubtful whether the factories would be making a big margin when everything's accounted for...

They could be a strong voice for environmental schemes that would favour low input farming and beef incomes but the plan sounds like they listened to too many whingers

Bass Reeves · 14-12-2018 3:20pm

wrangler wrote: »

They've done nothing about beef price yet,, I know guys that have gone to two or three meetings, they think they're better than IFA , Beef price is THE issue at the moment and they're ignoring it.
They'll probably wait till after Christmas now, sure everyone knows'' the price always rises after Christmas'' ......at least that's what beef farmers bar stool experts used to tell me after I'd waste three weeks on factory gates

Yes beef price is the issue. But solving the beef price is a complicated issue. Traditionally the tactics was blockade factory's chain trollys and create disturbances in supermarkets. But this was self defeating as blockading factorys would only cause a short-medium tern lift in prices. As well backing up cattle for 2-3 weeks allowed processors to drop the price fairly fast after the protest. Hassling retailers that account for 7% of out market is futile.

At the end of the day we need to have to an extent an open trading beef system. The problem is the processors control it too much. It a bit like the IFA protest at Agriculture house it may have been effective but using the system such as FOI requests may have been as effective as well.

This is why we need to change the cattle procurement system and put a barrier between the priocessors and the sellers to stop market distortion and manuiplication. However at the end of the day this will only achieve a 20-30c/kg higher average over the year or about 60-100 euro/head. This will not make systems tahta re inherently unprofitable sustainable but it would sustain profiatble systems.

Anybody that thinks we can get 3-400K cattle out of the system have a huge flaw in there thinking. There plan is that these would be mainly dairy bred beef. But in general these are mostly the cattle that are finished on the grass based system. The majority of suckler bred cattle are killed out of sheds as Young Bulls, under 24 month bulls as well steers and heifers out of sheds. So taking cattle that are finished mostly off grass may not be of benifit to the majority of beef farmers.

alps · 14-12-2018 3:28pm

White Clover wrote: »

Everything in place, company set up in China, Chinese on the board as per Chinese law, bonding also in place.

I'd be slow to believe that anyone could have everything in place on the sales side without having a supply secured. Not only could not you commit to a sale without knowing your buying cost, no sale would be entered into without certification and examination of the whole supply chain from start to finish.

White Clover · 14-12-2018 3:30pm

wrangler wrote: »

What's stopping you building a factory.... off with you then.
Come on Wrangler, I have great respect for you, but you can let yourself down by coming out with stuff like this.
The lack of a factory to kill and market this excess beef that farmers sell to factories as individuals is indeed a major problem at present, while they have complete control of the kill.

You want to ask the wool buyers about dealing with China.
Would there be a monopoly on the go there too by any chance?

Once anyone buys your produce, it's theirs to do what they like,
Even if Bord Bia opened up every market, factories don't have to supply them.
Are we not paying Bord Bia to promote and market our produce? Would the whole idea of this marketing be to return a realistic margin to farmers? Or is a realistic margin only to be got for factories and retailers? Would the factories only supply a select few retailers in order to keep the market small and the price down? Hardly......?

Goes back to what I've been saying all along, make them pay a better price.
Everything else will fall into place.
Can you elaborate here, You've lost me.

Factories are probably getting a better price than that guy was shouting about or else they didn't trust him.
Trust and beef factories in the same line is Ironic! I'd be willing to give him a chance!

Shouldn't believe anyone until you've checked it out yourself,

We've been fed enough BS over the years that we're now drunk from it and conditioned to take it. There was a commitment on price given from the man that spoke at the meeting on Wednesday night

White Clover · 14-12-2018 3:36pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Everyone will always tell you they'd love to sell you're product but getting a strong price off them is a another thing altogether. Would be doubtful whether the factories would be making a big margin when everything's accounted for...

We've been hearing it from bord bia for long enough, they have shown by now that they're weak.
As I have said, the factories AND the retailers are collaborating to keep the market small. Why else can't the factories supply other markets that are available to them ?

White Clover · 14-12-2018 3:54pm

alps wrote: »

I'd be slow to believe that anyone could have everything in place on the sales side without having a supply secured. Not only could not you commit to a sale without knowing your buying cost, no sale would be entered into without certification and examination of the whole supply chain from start to finish.

The person at the meeting is based in ireland. The contracts are being filled by other nations at present. He knows our beef is better and would ship that if he could get it.

White Clover · 14-12-2018 4:21pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes beef price is the issue. But solving the beef price is a complicated issue. Traditionally the tactics was blockade factory's chain trollys and create disturbances in supermarkets. But this was self defeating as blockading factorys would only cause a short-medium tern lift in prices. As well backing up cattle for 2-3 weeks allowed processors to drop the price fairly fast after the protest. Hassling retailers that account for 7% of out market is futile.

At the end of the day we need to have to an extent an open trading beef system. The problem is the processors control it too much. It a bit like the IFA protest at Agriculture house it may have been effective but using the system such as FOI requests may have been as effective as well.

This is why we need to change the cattle procurement system and put a barrier between the priocessors and the sellers to stop market distortion and manuiplication. However at the end of the day this will only achieve a 20-30c/kg higher average over the year or about 60-100 euro/head. This will not make systems tahta re inherently unprofitable sustainable but it would sustain profiatble systems.

Anybody that thinks we can get 3-400K cattle out of the system have a huge flaw in there thinking. There plan is that these would be mainly dairy bred beef. But in general these are mostly the cattle that are finished on the grass based system. The majority of suckler bred cattle are killed out of sheds as Young Bulls, under 24 month bulls as well steers and heifers out of sheds. So taking cattle that are finished mostly off grass may not be of benifit to the majority of beef farmers.

Why so Bass?
We heard of 3 markets that are not being supplied and also about the 5 major retail chains in the UK that don't stock our beef.

Until we break the cartel between the factories and the retailers, it will be difficult. They are deliberately restricting the marketing of our beef.

Base price · 14-12-2018 4:45pm

White Clover wrote: »

Why so Bass?
We heard of 3 markets that are not being supplied and also about the 5 major retail chains in the UK that don't stock our beef.

Until we break the cartel between the factories and the retailers, it will be difficult. They are deliberately restricting the marketing of our beef.

Afaik Tesco, ASDA and Sainsbury;s are the three chains that sell fresh Irish beef along side domestic beef. The other supermarket chains prefer to sell British/Red Tractor beef and support British farmers.

mauser77 · 14-12-2018 4:50pm

Ok so price in the factory is where it's at because our kill is numbers are up on 40k a week. Yet tonnage of beef has only increased 26k tons from 1992 to 2017. World population has increased by 2 billion people in that time so more mouths to feed. Yet in 26 years we haven't got a market for 26k more tons of beef that's only 65k young bull's bord bia are opening new markets for us every few months if you read the headlines yet the factorys tell us the kill is to high, we can't get rid of it, the kill is no higher now than every it was all these new markets old markets the beef is sold. Teagasc dept of ag harvest 2020 food wise 2025 tell us more we need more push outputs get bigger and for what to be told by the factory we've nowhere to go with it somebody's been sold a pup. And somebody is having a right good cut off the farmer's sweat and blood. Rant over

oxjkqg · 14-12-2018 4:57pm

mauser77 wrote: »

Ok so price in the factory is where it's at because our kill is numbers are up on 40k a week. Yet tonnage of beef has only increased 26k tons from 1992 to 2017. World population has increased by 2 billion people in that time so more mouths to feed. Yet in 26 years we haven't got a market for 26k more tons of beef that's only 65 young bull's bord bia are opening new markets for us every few months if you read the headlines yet the factorys tell us the kill is to high, we can't get rid of it, the kill is no higher now than every it was all these new markets old markets the beef is sold. Teagasc dept of ag harvest 2020 food wise 2025 tell us more we need more push outputs get bigger and for what to be told by the factory we've nowhere to go with it somebody's been sold a pup. And somebody is having a right good cut off the farmer's sweat and blood. Rant over

Has this question been put to teagasc yet, have they given any input yet? another shower of hurlers on the ditch getting a nice little envelope to keep quiet

yosemitesam1 · 14-12-2018 5:06pm

White Clover wrote: »

Why so Bass?
We heard of 3 markets that are not being supplied and also about the 5 major retail chains in the UK that don't stock our beef.

Until we break the cartel between the factories and the retailers, it will be difficult. They are deliberately restricting the marketing of our beef.

Any mention of what spec animal the other markets want and is it actually being produced?

wrangler · 14-12-2018 5:16pm

White Clover wrote: »

We've been fed enough BS over the years that we're now drunk from it and conditioned to take it. There was a commitment on price given from the man that spoke at the meeting on Wednesday night

Probably wasn't good enough, or they didn't trust him, The guys that manage factories aren't fools, I wouldn't believe that guy any way and am surprised that farmers are that gullible yet won't believe the factories, If this crowd was any good they'd call him out on it and work with him if he's telling the truth.....there's plenty of small abatoirs that'd take some of that order, you'll find he's a BSer.
No one has complete control of the kill if this guy can give 4.25/kg for 1250 cattle and sell it on at a profit,.
How long does the rants go on at these meeting, is there any actual proposals.
I asked a guy lately that used to be on our sheep commitee why he didn't come to meetings any more, he said he couldn't be listening to all the complaining......is this crowd the same

wrangler · 14-12-2018 5:25pm

Base price wrote: »

Afaik Tesco, ASDA and Sainsbury;s are the three chains that sell fresh Irish beef along side domestic beef. The other supermarket chains prefer to sell British/Red Tractor beef and support British farmers.

With those three it's well covered, like here they're at every crossroads. I've been in plenty of European supermarkets where Irish stuff is stocked, A lot of places it'd only take up a small corner of the counter..... not exactly jumping off the shelves or anything, The lighter coloured meat, cereal fed maybe, seem to be preferable

charolais0153 · 14-12-2018 6:04pm

mauser77 wrote: »

Ok so price in the factory is where it's at because our kill is numbers are up on 40k a week. Yet tonnage of beef has only increased 26k tons from 1992 to 2017. World population has increased by 2 billion people in that time so more mouths to feed. Yet in 26 years we haven't got a market for 26k more tons of beef that's only 65 young bull's bord bia are opening new markets for us every few months if you read the headlines yet the factorys tell us the kill is to high, we can't get rid of it, the kill is no higher now than every it was all these new markets old markets the beef is sold. Teagasc dept of ag harvest 2020 food wise 2025 tell us more we need more push outputs get bigger and for what to be told by the factory we've nowhere to go with it somebody's been sold a pup. And somebody is having a right good cut off the farmer's sweat and blood. Rant over

26k tons is 26 million kilos or 65000 young bulls @400kg dw.

alps · 14-12-2018 6:41pm

White Clover wrote: »

There was a commitment on price given from the man that spoke at the meeting on Wednesday night

Who is "The Man". Was he a speaker or a contributor from the crowd. Can we get his name or his company name? Did anyone search for a bit of background on this company, they surely have a bit of experience behind them that would leave a footprint..?

White Clover · 14-12-2018 6:57pm

wrangler wrote: »

Probably wasn't good enough, or they didn't trust him, The guys that manage factories aren't fools, I wouldn't believe that guy any way and am surprised that farmers are that gullible yet won't believe the factories, If this crowd was any good they'd call him out on it and work with him if he's telling the truth.....there's plenty of small abatoirs that'd take some of that order, you'll find he's a BSer.
No one has complete control of the kill if this guy can give 4.25/kg for 1250 cattle and sell it on at a profit,.
How long does the rants go on at these meeting, is there any actual proposals.
I asked a guy lately that used to be on our sheep commitee why he didn't come to meetings any more, he said he couldn't be listening to all the complaining......is this crowd the same

I suppose there is a chance that he is too straight for them? He might expose some of what goes on ? , That their masters, the retailers didn't want another buyer on the scene? You're making the factories sound like the moral authority!

Who said that farmers wouldn't work with him. This all came out on Wednesday night, less than 48 hours ago, what do you expect? A boat to be on the high seas by this morning?!

Complete control....No one need have complete control, just look at what went on in the insurance industry.

If you read my posts, I said there was no negativity...or rants in your language.

You're guy on the sheep committee, do you believe everything you hear too? Any chance he's a little more enlightened?

White Clover · 14-12-2018 6:59pm

alps wrote: »

Who is "The Man". Was he a speaker or a contributor from the crowd. Can we get his name or his company name? Did anyone search for a bit of background on this company, they surely have a bit of experience behind them that would leave a footprint..?

He was a speaker that made contact with the group earlier this week. I'm not going to name him.

White Clover · 14-12-2018 7:01pm

wrangler wrote: »

With those three it's well covered, like here they're at every crossroads. I've been in plenty of European supermarkets where Irish stuff is stocked, A lot of places it'd only take up a small corner of the counter..... not exactly jumping off the shelves or anything, The lighter coloured meat, cereal fed maybe, seem to be preferable

Many Irish people in the UK? Would they buy Irish or British beef in your opinion?

wrangler · 14-12-2018 7:55pm

White Clover wrote: »

Many Irish people in the UK? Would they buy Irish or British beef in your opinion?

My relations over there buy the cheapest, New zealand lamb would be a favourite, scottish angus as well, That was the older generation, younger ones would be focusing on covenience , The wedding I was at the menu was pork and the wedding was high class, all dentists and doctors......free bar for two days

mauser77 · 14-12-2018 7:57pm

charolais0153 wrote: »

26k tons is 26 million kilos or 65000 young bulls @400kg dw.

Forgot to add the k after the 65. But ya get what I'm saying if we can't have expanded by that many animals in 26 years what are we at

wrangler · 14-12-2018 8:11pm

White Clover wrote: »

I suppose there is a chance that he is too straight for them? He might expose some of what goes on ? , That their masters, the retailers didn't want another buyer on the scene? You're making the factories sound like the moral authority!

Who said that farmers wouldn't work with him. This all came out on Wednesday night, less than 48 hours ago, what do you expect? A boat to be on the high seas by this morning?!

Complete control....No one need have complete control, just look at what went on in the insurance industry.

If you read my posts, I said there was no negativity...or rants in your language.

You're guy on the sheep committee, do you believe everything you hear too? Any chance he's a little more enlightened?

Sure I can get the ranting up on facebook and it's always being shared, hard to avoid it, someone will surely direct me to your friends effort now.
I haven't looked at much hence I ask is there any proposals that'll rise the price

White Clover · 14-12-2018 8:50pm

wrangler wrote: »

Sure I can get the ranting up on facebook and it's always being shared, hard to avoid it, someone will surely direct me to your friends effort now.
I haven't looked at much hence I ask is there any proposals that'll rise the price

Search away, you wont find any ranting from the meeting I was at. Like I said earlier, ifa weren't mentioned, it just shows how irrelevant they have become around here. It's a pity really.

Beef Plan Movement (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

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