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Shane Ross' new speeding penalties

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    #362
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    DaveyDave wrote: »
    I don't speed so doesn't matter to me, but 10kph could catch someone out while completing an overtake for example.
    antodeco wrote: »
    This is an interesting point. Which is safer, overtake on the wrong side of the road for 5 seconds, (going over speed limit), or keep below the speed limit and be on the wrong side of the road for 10+ seconds.

    How about not starting the overtake until you can see enough clear* road to complete the overtake? You don't get caught out then.

    * Yes, that includes side road junctions as 'not clear' and undulations in the road surface.


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    #363
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,123 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    galwaytt wrote: »
    The RSA's own info is that most accidents are caused by 'losing control'. They don't actually measure 'speeding' as we understand it.

    They use this phrase 'exceeding the safe limit'. This has, literally, nothing to do with the 'posted, legal' speed limit.

    Case in point: a road has an 80kph limit on it. On a given day, due to weather or traffic, it is more prudent to drive below that speed, say 60. Paddy Joe, doing 70kph ('cos his dashcam recorded it), crashes. RSA log that to 'exceeding the safe limit' and conflate that as a 'speeding accident'. If a garda camera existed at the crash site, it would have shown he had not broken the 'posted, legal' limit: but that won't suit the RSA 'speed kills' narrative, and so it's used to bulk up the anti-speed mantra.

    The figures touted by RSA et al as 'speeding' and which are being used to manipulate, nay gerrymander, 'speed limits' - are nothing of the sort.

    It's blatant dishonesty tbh, and Ross & Co are falling for it.


    Speeding might not cause a large percentage of crashes, but it does cause most of the deaths.

    If you are unsure of this point, drive your car into a wall at 30mk/h and then do it at 100km/h and come back and report the results.


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    #364
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    Agreed. There is absolutely no viable alternative to the majority of people in this country which would allow them to get to work. Until that is the case, driving should be far more than a privilege.
    Or, alternatively, drivers should appreciate that privilege and make sure to drive in a manner that will not put that privilege in jeopardy.

    I'd go as far as to say it should be subsidised.
    It already is. I'd be interested to see how you would cope if you had to pay the actual cost of motoring.


    It's interesting to see (based on the 'arguments' posted and the level of thanks applied to some of them) the attitude of entitlement prevailing around driving.

    "I must be allowed to go as fast as I possibly can"
    "Nobody should get in my way"
    "Slower is more dangerous"
    "Driving is a human right!"
    "I was forced to overtake in a dangerous manner!! They made me do it!!!"


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    #365
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    Think about it, how often do you actually see a driver do something that you honestly believe they should be put off the road for? Personally, I spend a lot of time in the car and have seen about 5 maximum.

    Driving through a red light on a pedestrian green phase? Around once per week.
    Overtaking cyclists without leaving adequate space in the face of oncoming traffic? Multiple times per day.
    Driving in excess of the speed limit through the lines of SUVs outside a school at pickup/dropoff time? I used to see that most mornings when my kids were in primary school.


    Each of those has potential to seriously injure or kill somebody and just to save a couple of seconds to get to the next tailback...


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    #366
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,123 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    Think about it, how often do you actually see a driver do something that you honestly believe they should be put off the road for? Personally, I spend a lot of time in the car and have seen about 5 maximum.

    You shouldnt have to cause a pile up before you are put off the road.
    If you always ignore speed limits then you should be off the road.


    Here is an alternative way at looking at speeding since the majority on here believe their excellent driving skills and high performance cars entitle them to break the limits.

    Do you want the muppet in his Mums Micra to hit you under or over the limit?


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    #367
    flexcon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭flexcon


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    "I must be allowed to go as fast as I possibly can"

    Nope. Can't see anyone saying that. Sure its was brought up that some speed limits are crazy, and other European countries offer faster passage but nowhere are a group of people here on this thread saying that.
    cdaly_ wrote: »
    "Nobody should get in my way"

    Again - no sign of this. only link I can see is a small discussion on the merits of road manners and using the motorway. Also a touch of discussion on being stuck behind a tractor.
    cdaly_ wrote: »
    "Slower is more dangerous"

    In most European countries if you are going too slow - you get pulled over. In some countries if you have a certain amount of cars behind you again you are cautioned. Again can't see anyone actually saying that line...Anywhere.
    cdaly_ wrote: »
    "Driving is a human right!"

    hmmmm. Can't find those points anywhere either. A brief touch of " I could loose my job" or " There is no public service available where I live maybe but, again, very extreme summary there that is totally out of proportion.
    cdaly_ wrote: »
    "I was forced to overtake in a dangerous manner!! They made me do it!!!"

    I can't even at this stage.

    Your summary of the points are incredibly exaggerated and misleading to all the genuine points people have.


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    #368
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    flexcon wrote: »
    If i read this right :

    If I get caught speeding 141kph at 10pm on a quite cork to Dublin motorway - I am to get a fine of €200 and 7 points in my licence?

    I just went to liberty insurance for the crack and changed my position to 7 points as a new quote. it adds €300 to my policy. What in the hell? So that’s €300 x 3 years(until i loose my points) and €200 for the fine? You’d only find this going on in australia.
    Sounds good to me. You choose to exceed the limits you absolutely should pay for it. Of course, somebody who habitually speeds on a 'safe' motorway is just as likely to speed on another road because they think they are 'safe'. The insurer should absolutely account for this in their charges.
    The proportionate penalty is absolutely absurd considering you only get
    12 points to use in 3 years.
    You do know it's not a quota you have to fill don't you?...


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    #369
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,123 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    flexcon wrote: »
    In most European countries if you are going too slow - you get pulled over. In some countries if you have a certain amount of cars behind you again you are cautioned. Again can't see anyone actually saying that line...Anywhere.
    People are arguing that they should be able to exceed the posted limit, so why are you talking about people going "too slow"?

    In some countries they chop off your hand for stealing.
    Am I doing it right?


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    #370
    flexcon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭flexcon


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    Sounds good to me. You choose to exceed the limits you absolutely should pay for it. Of course, somebody who habitually speeds on a 'safe' motorway is just as likely to speed on another road because they think they are 'safe'. The insurer should absolutely account for this in their charges.

    You do know it's not a quota you have to fill don't you?...

    I'm so happy you picked my post. Game on.

    I am happy to pay the fine. I did wrong.

    If I accidentally sped ONCE in those three years, on a motorway doing over the speed limit my insurance goes up €200 - plus the €200 fine. That's €400 of a penalty.

    Yet someone going the same speed over in a small town gets the same penalty. That is wrong. That's just how I feel about it.

    I am not justifying speeding. I am simply passing on my opinion that putting someone off the road, or penalizing them to such an extent that it runs into the hundreds for one infraction, is not right. The penalty does not fit the crime.

    What do you mean about the quota? I thought we had to fill this within 3 years? I never knew that! Cheers!


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    #371
    flexcon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭flexcon


    GreeBo wrote: »
    People are arguing that they should be able to exceed the posted limit, so why are you talking about people going "too slow"?

    In some countries they chop off your hand for stealing.
    Am I doing it right?

    I'm lost here. I was responding to the other post.

    Without the other post for context your response makes no sense to me.

    your last point is interesting.

    Are you doing it right? What's your limit? Like debating here is good as there is an insane mix of opinions - Not 2 sides.

    For example, some here are stating the Law, rather than common sense or context.

    So your example is perfect. In some other country this discussion would be had where people would defend chopping ones hand of - because its the law. Don't like it? Don't steal.

    This is why I am interested in those that defend the law, and not breaking it, to actually determine what they feel is the correct punishment and more importantly - when it goes too far. Everyone has a limit. The law isn't the personal limit for us all, it's a collective.


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    #372
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Kevin Irving wrote: »

    Think about it, how often do you actually see a driver do something that you honestly believe they should be put off the road for? Personally, I spend a lot of time in the car and have seen about 5 maximum.


    Unfortunately it was a daily observation when my kid was young enough to be walked to school. It's shocking how many people seem to think nothing of flying through a pedestrian light while kids are literally crossing the road. I honestly estimate I'd see it happen once every second day. It's the only time in my life I've understood what it's like to want to lynch someone.

    Getting a bit angry again now just thinking about it :pac:


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    #373
    fancy pigeon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,863 ✭✭✭fancy pigeon


    victor8600 wrote: »
    What about ridiculous speed limits which are put seemingly only to cover somebody's mistakes? There is a 30 km/h limit on the ramp going from N3 to M50 southbound. This is after the reasonable 80 km/h limit on N3 and before the 100 km/h limit on M50. The ramp curves quite gently, so there no point to drive any slower than 60 km/h there. In fact, I saw nobody driving 30 km/h there, and driving so slow would be a nuisance to other drivers.

    There should be some mechanism to contest stupid limits like this one.

    Something is telling me this is to facilitate trucks and HGV's rather than cars and vans, where if I remember one tipped over at that off ramp many years ago and the 30kmh limit was introduced shortly after

    Wasn't there a speed trap there a few times?


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    #374
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Pythagorean wrote: »
    As a motorist, motorcyclist, and cyclist of over 40 years accident free road use, I think I am qualified to judge what is a safe speed.
    However, I got caught out while riding an old motorcycle, the speedo in mph, and angled away from the rider, therefore difficult to read. I was clocked at 60 kph in a 50 zone, but I do not recall seeing any 50 signs, or speed camera warning signs. The road ahead was clear, and free of any hazards, being a quiet summer evening, I was accelerating towards an open stretch of road, in perfect safety. A few days later, the letter arrived, 80 euro fine, 3 penalty points, and increased insurance premiums. Fair enough, if it was a heavily congested urban area, on a dark wet winters night, ( when I would be doing less than 50 anyway). Mr Ross no doubt sees himself as some sort of reforming hero, but by draconian penalties, he will only succeed in criminalising perfectly safe and careful drivers, who occasionally get their speed wrong, thereby alienating a substantial section of the population. He will not get my vote next time.

    I would have to assume that you are the (unfortunate) exception rather than the norm here...


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    #375
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    rex-x wrote: »
    If noone sticks to the limits does that not mean the limits maybe are in need of raising?

    No. It means that people are behaving selfishly and with no regard for other road users.


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    #376
    flexcon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭flexcon


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    No. It means that people are behaving selfishly and with no regard for other road users.

    So if the speed limit was 50kph on the M50 and someone was going 60kph would they be selfish with no regard to other road users?

    What in your opinion is someone having no regard for other road users?

    OR

    Do you mean to say "No regard for the law, regardless of what the speed limit is set?"

    The are two completely different points to make


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    #377
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    flexcon wrote: »
    Nope. Can't see anyone saying that. Sure its was brought up that some speed limits are crazy, and other European countries offer faster passage but nowhere are a group of people here on this thread saying that.



    Again - no sign of this. only link I can see is a small discussion on the merits of road manners and using the motorway. Also a touch of discussion on being stuck behind a tractor.



    In most European countries if you are going too slow - you get pulled over. In some countries if you have a certain amount of cars behind you again you are cautioned. Again can't see anyone actually saying that line...Anywhere.



    hmmmm. Can't find those points anywhere either. A brief touch of " I could loose my job" or " There is no public service available where I live maybe but, again, very extreme summary there that is totally out of proportion.



    I can't even at this stage.

    Your summary of the points are incredibly exaggerated and misleading to all the genuine points people have.
    Apologies, I thought we were reading the same thread.


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    #378
    mgn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭mgn


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Unfortunately it was a daily observation when my kid was young enough to be walked to school. It's shocking how many people seem to think nothing of flying through a pedestrian light while kids are literally crossing the road. I honestly estimate I'd see it happen once every second day. It's the only time in my life I've understood what it's like to want to lynch someone.

    Getting a bit angry again now just thinking about it :pac:

    How many big suvs and jeeps did you see parked outside the school.Half on the road and half on the footpath blocking traffic.Why not start by giving these clowns penalty points and a fine while we're at it.Are we afraid to upset the Lord Ross voters.


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    #379
    Pretzeluck
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 325 ✭✭Pretzeluck


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    Driving through a red light on a pedestrian green phase? Around once per week.
    Overtaking cyclists without leaving adequate space in the face of oncoming traffic? Multiple times per day.
    Driving in excess of the speed limit through the lines of SUVs outside a school at pickup/dropoff time? I used to see that most mornings when my kids were in primary school.


    Each of those has potential to seriously injure or kill somebody and just to save a couple of seconds to get to the next tailback...

    Yeah as you say, nobody could ever get anywhere faster could they. Well don't drive a car then. Problem solved.
    Don't get a heart attack after this vid



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    #380
    qxtasybe1nwfh2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 447 ✭✭qxtasybe1nwfh2


    I don't agree with it, there's a massive difference between going 10 or 20 km over the limit in a town than on the motorway. Also surely there's some errors with speed cameras, I can't see them being accurate to the kmph. A lot more people will consider contesting that they were going 138 as apposed to 143km. Garda already have the discretion to not issue points but to send the driver to court for dangerous driving, so I can't see this helping. There needs to be more inforcement of the rules already there. I do a good bit of driving and rarely ever see speed vans or cameras. I've been through one check point in the last 2 years.


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    #381
    AbdulAbhaile
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭AbdulAbhaile


    This is all just noise from lord ross. If there was a real interest in reducing speeding offences then enforcement is what's needed not more laws that just won't be enforced.

    How about installing average speed cameras in the areas earmarked as gosafe zones so that drivers know they will be done if they exceed the posted limit rather than driving on and slowing down if/when a van is spotted.

    Why are there no red light cameras? Cameras to enforce yellow boxes and bus lanes etc.


    Enforcement not harsher penalties or new offences is what's required.


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    #382
    Pretzeluck
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 325 ✭✭Pretzeluck


    AbdulAbhaile wrote: »
    This is all just noise from lord ross. If there was a real interest in reducing speeding offences then enforcement is what's needed not more laws that just won't be enforced.

    How about installing average speed cameras in the areas earmarked as gosafe zones so that drivers know they will be done if they exceed the posted limit rather than driving on and slowing down if/when a van is spotted.

    Why are there no red light cameras? Cameras to enforce yellow boxes and bus lanes etc.


    Enforcement not harsher penalties or new offences is what's required.

    That wouldn't make money, if they wanted everyone to slow down then they would but no coin would be made. If everyone knew the place has cameras, no one would speed but then no money is made which is unacceptable.


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    #383
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Pretzeluck wrote: »
    That wouldn't make money, if they wanted everyone to slow down then they would but no coin would be made. If everyone knew the place has cameras, no one would speed but then no money is made which is unacceptable.

    It's been pointed out several times already in this thread that the existing speed camera set up costs money, it doesnt make money.


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    #384
    Pretzeluck
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 325 ✭✭Pretzeluck


    amcalester wrote: »
    It's been pointed out several times already in this thread that the existing speed camera set up costs money, it doesnt make money.

    Then why permanent speed cameras aren't placed there if the point was to slow down. You know, just like in every other country in the world.


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    #385
    AbdulAbhaile
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭AbdulAbhaile


    amcalester wrote: »
    It's been pointed out several times already in this thread that the existing speed camera set up costs money, it doesnt make money.

    With the exception of one or two individual friends of those in power.


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    #386
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Pretzeluck wrote: »
    Then why permanent speed cameras aren't placed there if the point was to slow down. You know, just like in every other country in the world.

    Honestly don't know, but there are signs placed there so when you see the sign slow down.


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    #387
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    AbdulAbhaile wrote: »
    With the exception of one or two individual friends of those in power.

    Link?


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    #388
    AbdulAbhaile
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭AbdulAbhaile


    amcalester wrote: »
    Link?

    Don't know how to post links.


    THE company that operates the army of speed-camera vans across the country made profits of almost €50,000 a week last year after detecting a speeding motorist every hour.


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    #389
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    AbdulAbhaile wrote: »
    Don't know how to post links.


    THE company that operates the army of speed-camera vans across the country made profits of almost €50,000 a week last year after detecting a speeding motorist every hour.

    Contract is up for renewal in 2021 I think, make sure you bid for it.

    Their locations are signposted, so you'd have to be an idiot* to get caught by one. I am regularly over taken (while driving at the limit) on the R132 (old N1) in the morning by speeding motorists right at the warning sign, these same motorists are probably the ones complaining about "shooting fish in a barrel", so I don't have much sympathy.

    *guilty as charged


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    #390
    Pretzeluck
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 325 ✭✭Pretzeluck


    amcalester wrote: »
    Contract is up for renewal in 2021 I think, make sure you bid for it.

    Their locations are signposted, so you'd have to be an idiot* to get caught by one. I am regularly over taken (while driving at the limit) on the R132 (old N1) in the morning by speeding motorists right at the warning sign, these same motorists are probably the ones complaining about "shooting fish in a barrel", so I don't have much sympathy.

    *guilty as charged

    You should be rammed off the road


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    #391
    koheim
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭koheim


    The faster you drive above the speed limit, the higher fine you pay. This seems very reasonable. I do not understand the resistance.


This discussion has been closed.
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