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Scientology Centre headed for old Victory Centre in Firhouse

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    #152
    RichieO
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭RichieO


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    You can get beer, and tax exemptions for religion, pretty much anywhere. Until recent years, Irish beer was uniformly shyte :eek:


    True, but Irish tax exemptions are quite generous and Americans think Irish shoite beer is way better than American shoite beer...


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    #153
    BuilderPlumber
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    I am unfamiliar with the details of scientology and only hear the negative statements made about it. I don't understand their beliefs or if they are a real religion or just a loose set of beliefs but if they are a proper organisation and not a cult, then they need to cooperate with the state and be registered.

    There are a lot of cults around. Most are harmless enough but still take small amounts of money from people at meetings where preachers shout about the devil. But other cults are pure evil and are murderous. ISIS is perhaps most famous but there have been and still are Christian and new age ones like it too.


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    #154
    RichieO
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭RichieO


    BuilderPlumber wrote: »
    I am unfamiliar with the details of scientology and only hear the negative statements made about it. I don't understand their beliefs or if they are a real religion or just a loose set of beliefs but if they are a proper organisation and not a cult, then they need to cooperate with the state and be registered.

    There are a lot of cults around. Most are harmless enough but still take small amounts of money from people at meetings where preachers shout about the devil. But other cults are pure evil and are murderous. ISIS is perhaps most famous but there have been and still are Christian and new age ones like it too.

    I would recommend reading a few facts about this commercial cult in wiki...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology#Illegal_activities


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    #155
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,078 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    I read recently that CoS has not been granted charitable status in this country, that may well be true but are churches actually required to register for charitable status and publish accounts etc. in the way charities do? I don't think they are.
    Churches don't have to register as charities in order to get the tax treatment that churches get. They just have to satisfy the Revenue that they are indeed churches.

    And church-linked schools don't have to register as charities in order to get the tax breaks that a school gets; they just have to satisfy the Revenue that they are schools.

    But a fair number of church-linked entities are registered as charities - presumably on the basis that, although church-linked or church-owned or whatever, they are not themselves churches.


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    #156
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    They just have to satisfy the Revenue that they are indeed churches.
    That is the key point here.
    Because rightly or wrongly, the furtherance of religion is considered by law to be "a charitable purpose". Therefore, if you are a church, you are by definition a type of charity, without any further argument.


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    #157
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,078 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    That is the key point here.
    Because rightly or wrongly, the furtherance of religion is considered by law to be "a charitable purpose". Therefore, if you are a church, you are by definition a type of charity, without any further argument.
    Yes. But there is a range of tax treatments which are not given to charities, but only to registered charities. If you want those treatments, you need to register. You get a lesser range of tax benefits as an unregistered charity but, if that's all you're interested in that's fine.


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    #158
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Yes. But there is a range of tax treatments which are not given to charities, but only to registered charities. If you want those treatments, you need to register. You get a lesser range of tax benefits as an unregistered charity but, if that's all you're interested in that's fine.
    I'll take your word for it. I'm sure the scientology lawyers will have examined the tax situation available to them in Ireland in minute detail.


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    #159
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    just got a scientology advert on youtube for their Dublin centre, let hope they are just wasting their money

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #160
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,972 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The whole Irish operation has had to be losing money hand over fist ever since it was set up.

    The super-rich types here like Declan Ganley and Redacted O'Brien tend to be into the hardline catholicism.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/c-c-leaves-bitter-taste-signalling-virtue-over-minimum-pricing-1.3294593

    image.jpg
    Irish businessmen donate to Vatican chapel

    Speaking of business people and virtue, I was especially tickled to learn from our religious-affairs correspondent, Patsy McGarry, that some of the biggest names in Irish business have helped to pay for the restoration of a 16th century church in Rome, near the Sistine chapel.

    Our correspondent was wandering through the sacristy of the Vatican’s magnificent Pauline chapel, a private space where popes are known pray and home to frescoes by Michelangelo, when, lo, he spotted a plaque on the wall. It listed 26 benefactors, including many prominent Irish names who have helped finance a €9 million restoration of the church that began in 2002.

    The Irish benefactors are: telecoms tycoon Denis O’Brien, property developers Paddy McKillen, Johnny Ronan and Sean Mulryan, and bankers or financiers Sean FitzPatrick, Michael Fingleton and Derek Quinlan.

    Bless them.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #161
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,972 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Weird thing happening on boards for a while now, if you type or paste in an accented character it looks fine but when you hit submit it disappears and the two characters to the right disappear too!

    They must be going nuts in the Irish forum :p

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #162
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Weird thing happening on boards for a while now, if you type or paste in an accented character it looks fine but when you hit submit it disappears and the two characters to the right disappear too!

    They must be going nuts in the Irish forum :p

    I blame xenu


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    #163
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Scientologists are opening a new drug "treatment" center in Meath and the local GAA club has accepted a donation of €20,000 in return for which the GAA club will facilitate the building of the center. Locals are not amused.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/campaigners-sick-to-the-stomach-at-gaa-club-facilitating-scientology-centre-1.3586905
    Irish Times wrote:
    A Meath GAA club has been criticised for voting to accept a proposal - worth up to €20,000 - to share its carpark with builders on a controversial new Church of Scientology- linked rehabilitation centre.

    Members of Ballivor GFC voted 24 to 10 in favour of accepting the proposals at an extraordinary general meeting on Saturday. The deal is from builders on site at the new drug treatment centre, which will be run by Narconon - the group linked with the Church of Scientology. The offer consists of construction goods worth up to €20,000 including sewage pipes and a shed which could be used as a club house on Ballivor’s new grounds. In return, the club would allow the use of its carpark to builders for 30 cars until the end of November, while work continues on the controversial development

    The EGM was called to debate these revised proposals after an earlier offer of between €8,000-10,000 was refused by the club’s executive committee. However the proposals are far from being signed and sealed, according to a source within the club. “The club has attached certain conditions which must be accepted by the builder before anything goes ahead,” he said. "These would include that the cars are not allowed to park there at weekends or when training is on. They also cannot hinder the pick-up and put-down areas used by parents when school starts again. We will also have to ask the county board to indemnify the insurance for the extra cars, before anything goes ahead. This deal is basically a general wish list of everything we need at our new grounds. It will fast forward the club’s plans by five years. We have a sports grant and permission for a new astro turf pitch but have nowhere for the children to go to the toilet or wash their hands. The deal is being made with the builder and is only for three months - on a development that is going to continue anyway. I think it’s one of those things that we’re going to be damned if we do and damned if we don’t.”

    However, the offer has left members of the Ballivor Says No group - who have been battling to keep Scientology-linked group Narconon out of the village - “very saddened”. “The Ballivor Says No group has put blood, sweat and tears into trying to stop the Church of Scientology coming into the village and now the club, which is such a big part of the community, has turned its back on us,” said group member Claire O’Mara. “It feels like they are sticking two fingers up to us. I’m very saddened, very disheartened and am sick to the stomach over the this. [...] the GAA has enough money” and didn’t need this. “The club are saying that it’s the builder who is making the deal but sure he’s only the middle man - he’s getting the money from the Church of Scientology.

    Ballivor GFC declined to comment on the matter but said they would be issuing a statement later. The building company were closed for comment.


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    #164
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Catchy name that, a combination of narc and con. I like it :pac:


    Really this would just be facilitating builders and tradesmen, many of which would be locals anyway. So not a problem for any fair minded person.


    Of more interest to me would be the fact that the scientologists bought the disused national school.
    Where is the new school, and who paid for building that? Who got the money when the old school was sold?
    Often in a small rural town you see a national school, church, community centre/parish centre and GAA club all in close proximity. That often means RCC control and/or ownership of the community facilities.


    I see the new school was being built in 2008, on the village cowplots ....:confused:
    The new two-storey school is expected to take about 13 months to complete and will cost in the region of €4m-4.5m. It is hoped that the school will be in the new building by March 2009.
    The local community must come up with €100,000 towards the project- €65,000 towards the building cost and €35,000 for the fit out.
    A number of fundraising events are being organised including a fashion show in the Old Darnley Lodge Hotel in April (more details in coming weeks).
    A few brave teachers in the school and local parish priest Fr Oliver Devine are to undertake a parachute jump later this year to raise funds and past pupils and community members are being encouraged to "buy a brick" in the new school as part of another fundraising initiative.
    That does not really explain who owns the new school.

    Or where the cows are doing their plotting now.


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    #165
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,972 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'd be happy to buy a brick for the Scientology centre, provided I could place the brick on the trajectory of my choice :cool:

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #166
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robindch wrote: »
    Scientologists are opening a new drug "treatment" center in Meath

    What, so anyone who enters the premises but doesn't sign up using the normal persuasive methods is treated with drugs until they see the light? :P


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    #167
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    smacl wrote: »
    What, so anyone who enters the premises but doesn't sign up using the normal persuasive methods is treated with drugs until they see the light? :P
    I don't think there's a drug known to mankind which could make scientology generally convincing.


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    #168
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Mike Rinder has posted a piece about the Ireland Org, after noticing that all the success stories coming out of Firhouse all seem to involve people from outside Ireland. They appear to be flying in people from Slovakia and Japan to big it up ... :o

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #169
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    An Bord Plean boot Scientology's "Narconon" firmly all the way back to square one in its efforts to build what it refers to as "a drug rehabilitation center":

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/scientology-drug-rehab-centre-suffers-planning-setback-1.3707346


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    #170
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    "I wouln't say back to square one". The statement from the narc-cons says...
    Meath County Council granted Narconon planning permission in 2016. The building is nearly completed. We adhered to planning laws from start to finish. We are surprised by this decision from An Bord Plean more than two years later and we are seeking legal advice.

    If the building is nearing completion the county council will almost certainly grant (retrospective) retention/permission under a new planning application, otherwise they would be opening a huge can of worms. Any local objections will go straight into the bin.

    Normally building work cannot proceed if somebody has appealed a planning decision. In this case it seems nobody appealed the grant of permission, but they later appealed the alleged change of use. As this was not a proper appeal, the builders were allowed to start work while it was going on. I suspect ABP has no power to rule on such matters, but we'll wait and see what the lawyers say.

    This also contrasts with recent legislation that was quietly passed in the Dail recently which says community facilities, hotels etc can be converted into Direct Provision Centres for asylum seekers without needing any "change of use" planning permission.

    Scientologists are clearly being discriminated against here on religious grounds. Laws are being bent and manipulated.


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    #171
    Reati
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭Reati


    recedite wrote: »
    "I wouln't say back to square one". The statement from the narc-cons says...

    If the building is nearing completion the county council will almost certainly grant (retrospective) retention/permission under a new planning application, otherwise they would be opening a huge can of worms. Any local objections will go straight into the bin.

    Normally building work cannot proceed if somebody has appealed a planning decision. In this case it seems nobody appealed the grant of permission, but they later appealed the alleged change of use. As this was not a proper appeal, the builders were allowed to start work while it was going on. I suspect ABP has no power to rule on such matters, but we'll wait and see what the lawyers say.

    This also contrasts with recent legislation that was quietly passed in the Dail recently which says community facilities, hotels etc can be converted into Direct Provision Centres for asylum seekers without needing any "change of use" planning permission.

    Scientologists are clearly being discriminated against here on religious grounds. Laws are being bent and manipulated.

    Did you see how long the Apple DC thing went on for. If anything, people can drag this out for ages. The building might be finished but it might not be used for years. It's a win for the locals that ABP have given the council a kick on this and will go the long road hopefully.


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    #172
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Reati wrote: »
    Did you see how long the Apple DC thing went on for. If anything, people can drag this out for ages. The building might be finished but it might not be used for years. It's a win for the locals that ABP have given the council a kick on this and will go the long road hopefully.
    Apple never got started because of the appeals.

    This is different; the building has already been constructed. I would be amazed if the same county council that gave it the go-ahead now ordered it to be knocked down, or said it cannot be used.

    Scientologists will have good lawyers and they will show up the Irish planning system to be a farce. Councillors and planning officials will break ranks and scatter like rats trying to cover their own asses.


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    #173
    Reati
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭Reati


    recedite wrote: »
    Apple never got started because of the appeals.

    This is different; the building has already been constructed. I would be amazed if the same county council that gave it the go-ahead now ordered it to be knocked down, or said it cannot be used.

    Scientologists will have good lawyers and they will show up the Irish planning system to be a farce. Councillors and planning officials will break ranks and scatter like rats trying to cover their own asses.

    Good. It'll be fun to watch either way.


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    #174
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,972 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    "It was ridiculous to think that a nursing home in a small village was the exact same in terms of planning as a nursing home."


    Hmmm....

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #175
    Under His Eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 907 ✭✭✭Under His Eye


    It will end up back at ABP regardless. This will slow them down by years.


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    #176
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    AFAIK "judicial review" is the next stage, after ABP.
    It costs a lot of money but...
    Money is one thing they are not short of. And they have already spent a lot, so they are not going to just walk away.


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    #177
    Under His Eye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 907 ✭✭✭Under His Eye


    They might just apply for normal planning, objections will be received, planning will be granted by Meath CC. Objectors will go to ABP.

    All the while they cannot do any more building.


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    #178
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,754 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    getting Scientology facebook ads

    and seeing these personal effectiveness classes on eventbrite https://www.event brite.ie/e/personal-efficiency-courseinteractive-workshop-in-south-dublin-tickets-49524896298?aff=ebdssbdestsearch


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    #179
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    expectationlost wrote: »
    getting Scientology facebook ads

    and seeing these personal effectiveness classes on eventbrite https://www.event brite.ie/e/personal-efficiency-courseinteractive-workshop-in-south-dublin-tickets-49524896298?aff=ebdssbdestsearch

    Facebook ads are based on your browsing history.


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    #180
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Facebook ads are based on your browsing history.
    Facebook ads are chosen based upon hundreds of inputs - your browsing history may (or may not) be one of them.

    Relatedly, here's an article from Monday which looks into location-tracking:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/10/business/location-data-privacy-apps.html


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    #181
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,754 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Facebook ads are based on your browsing history.
    it was generic ad to people who certain age in dublin


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