3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Savage93 · 29-11-2018 11:33am

Yawlboy wrote: »

Will be missed......
:P

Men want to be him,women want to be with him:D

jonnybigwallet · 30-11-2018 11:55am

I think that chap was a bit over the top in his assessment of a "fit for purpose" navy for the ROI. However I think some further investment is needed if the UK drops out of the EU. Specifically I reckon that the two peacocks need to be disposed of and replaced with 4 somewhat larger and more capable vessels to patrol Eastern waters. Also a couple of ships along the lines of the Absalon class for overseas operations and general deterrence in Irish waters. That Peruvian ship that somebody posted recently looks pretty good if the Absalon does not fit the budget.

Boreas · 30-11-2018 3:33pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

...However I think some further investment is needed if the UK drops out of the EU. Specifically I reckon that the two peacocks need to be disposed of and replaced with 4 somewhat larger and more capable vessels to patrol Eastern waters...

Surely the real need for ships in the Irish sea is to help rescue post-Brexit refugees? Once Mogg takes over and the anti-Remainer pogroms begin I mean.

At least the Mediterranean deployments will have given them some experience.

Tabnabs · 30-11-2018 3:36pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I think that chap was a bit over the top in his assessment of a "fit for purpose" navy for the ROI. However I think some further investment is needed if the UK drops out of the EU. Specifically I reckon that the two peacocks need to be disposed of and replaced with 4 somewhat larger and more capable vessels to patrol Eastern waters. Also a couple of ships along the lines of the Absalon class for overseas operations and general deterrence in Irish waters. That Peruvian ship that somebody posted recently looks pretty good if the Absalon does not fit the budget.

Investment on that scale won't happen without EU funding and that will never be allowed due to the slippery slope of a grand EU military alliance and the very vocal opposition to Ireland being anything but a neutered neutral nation.

roadmaster · 30-11-2018 7:08pm

Since the 4 ships have being delivered and the thread seams to be more general naval questions I’ll ask this here. Looking back at the naval deployment to med was it a bit reckless deploying the ships that close to the Libyan shore at times considering the ships don’t really have a ciws to take out missiles or rockets. Can you imagine the issues the backlash if a ship had got hit while of the Libyan coast. Maybe the ships have a radar system for detection of misiles we don’t know about but either way should ships be going back without a proper ciws?

sparky42 · 01-12-2018 2:50am

roadmaster wrote: »

Since the 4 ships have being delivered and the thread seams to be more general naval questions I’ll ask this here. Looking back at the naval deployment to med was it a bit reckless deploying the ships that close to the Libyan shore at times considering the ships don’t really have a ciws to take out missiles or rockets. Can you imagine the issues the backlash if a ship had got hit while of the Libyan coast. Maybe the ships have a radar system for detection of misiles we don’t know about but either way should ships be going back without a proper ciws?

It's the same risk we run in every UN deployment, sending ill-equipped units for missions as to do otherwise would mean actually spending money on them. Same as how we have MOWAGs as part of the Reaction force of UNDOF but they like any of the "modern" improvements (Cage Armour, V hull, ECM), I mean when we helped evacuate those UN posts that could have gone badly wrong then. As for the radar systems, nope, they are fairly basic fit outs though they could be upgraded (not likely), in the case of CWIS I think there's plenty of issues, a) the Radar systems, b) deck space/clearance issues.

skooterblue2 · 04-12-2018 7:18pm

savagecabbages wrote: »

As for the use of helicopters on INS vessels, what are the pros and cons of them? I know we used have Helicopters on the Eithne but this practice stopped years ago. Why?

Other than it being a pretty cool thing to have, why would we need/want helicopters on our vessels?

I am not sure of the original logic of it. A helipad on an offshore patrol vessel in the Mediterranean is a great idea. Trying to land a medium range Helicopter out on at the high Atlantic with an equinox swell, is a totally different matter.

sparky42 · 04-12-2018 10:24pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I am not sure of the original logic of it. A helipad on an offshore patrol vessel in the Mediterranean is a great idea. Trying to land a medium range Helicopter out on at the high Atlantic with an equinox swell, is a totally different matter.

Other Navies do it, there was plenty of issues with the original plan and how it came about, had we got the other Eithne hulls and gone with the Lynx (as planned) and continued working with the Dutch who knows how it would have developed.

Capt'n Midnight · 04-12-2018 10:45pm

Canadians use bear traps.

Helicopter drops a cable, it gets snared and the chopper goes to full power and gets reeled in.

sparky42 · 04-12-2018 11:08pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Canadians use bear traps.

Helicopter drops a cable, it gets snared and the chopper goes to full power and gets reeled in.

Eithne did have the Harpoon system back in the day.

mikeym · 04-12-2018 11:45pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I think that chap was a bit over the top in his assessment of a "fit for purpose" navy for the ROI.

Peter Casey said that.

roadmaster · 05-12-2018 12:52pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Other Navies do it, there was plenty of issues with the original plan and how it came about, had we got the other Eithne hulls and gone with the Lynx (as planned) and continued working with the Dutch who knows how it would have developed.

Is that true about the lynx, i have heard it several times but is it just talk the same as we where suppose to get blackhawks instead of augstas .

There was meant to be 3 Eithne class originally, if they had built the three and by all accounts it is an excellent ship that was admired by other navy's at the time could we have seen it being built for export if they had built the 3 and got momentum going?

sparky42 · 05-12-2018 1:23pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Is that true about the lynx, i have heard it several times but is it just talk the same as we where suppose to get blackhawks instead of augstas .

There was meant to be 3 Eithne class originally, if they had built the three and by all accounts it is an excellent ship that was admired by other navy's at the time could we have seen it being built for export if they had built the 3 and got momentum going?

The book from one of the chief designers of the Dockyard talks about it, according to him the plan was for the Lynx and the plan was to leverage off the Dutch Navy's knowledgebase, but politics from Dublin meant that it wasn't an option (guessing due to Troubles).

As to Eithne, the same book has the US Coastguard thinking it was a better design than their similar class (better compartmentalisation for example), there was also interest from India at the time but by then the yard was in liquidation so it never went anywhere. I think there would have been some options if they had been built, along with the fact that the very nature of the Navy itself, as we likely wouldn't have got the Peacocks so would we have standardised on the 57mm instead of the 76mm for example?

roadmaster · 06-12-2018 7:02pm

sparky42 wrote: »

The book from one of the chief designers of the Dockyard talks about it, according to him the plan was for the Lynx and the plan was to leverage off the Dutch Navy's knowledgebase, but politics from Dublin meant that it wasn't an option (guessing due to Troubles).

As to Eithne, the same book has the US Coastguard thinking it was a better design than their similar class (better compartmentalisation for example), there was also interest from India at the time but by then the yard was in liquidation so it never went anywhere. I think there would have been some options if they had been built, along with the fact that the very nature of the Navy itself, as we likely wouldn't have got the Peacocks so would we have standardised on the 57mm instead of the 76mm for example?

What is the link with the lynx and the dutch, did fokker build a licenced version that the Dutch military used and we would buy of fokker?

sparky42 · 06-12-2018 7:07pm

roadmaster wrote: »

What is the link with the lynx and the dutch, did fokker build a licenced version that the Dutch military used and we would buy of fokker?

The reason we were talking to the Dutch was because the Parent company of the Cobh dockyard was a Dutch company, we used their wave tanks for design testing, so they had a relationship with the Dutch Navy.

skooterblue2 · 06-12-2018 8:25pm

sparky42 wrote: »

as we likely wouldn't have got the Peacocks so would we have standardised on the 57mm instead of the 76mm for example?

Have we actually ever fired those guns in anger? or even threatened to use them?

roadmaster · 06-12-2018 8:31pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Have we actually ever fired those guns in anger? or even threatened to use them?

I believe aisling in the 80's used her weaponry for warning shoots against a spanish factory trawler

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/21/world/irish-said-to-sink-spanish-trawler.html

sparky42 · 06-12-2018 9:01pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Have we actually ever fired those guns in anger? or even threatened to use them?

I'm sure that they might have threatened some of the ships that intercepted them during the Med operations.

cameramonkey · 06-12-2018 10:06pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I believe aisling in the 80's used her weaponry for warning shoots against a spanish factory trawler

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/21/world/irish-said-to-sink-spanish-trawler.html

I believe rounds were also fired at the Marita Ann, first across the bow and then it was reported that some were fired at or somehow hit the trawler.

I don't know what was fired, they had 40mm, 20mm as well as I presume 7.62 to choose from.

roadmaster · 06-12-2018 11:59pm

An now Aisling is the flag ship of the Libyan navy she will have bigger adventures I would say there

sparky42 · 07-12-2018 12:07am

roadmaster wrote: »

An now Aisling is the flag ship of the Libyan navy she will have bigger adventures I would say there

I'd have my doubts, I'd say she'll end up rusting away given the state of Libya.

Yawlboy · 07-12-2018 11:34am

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Have we actually ever fired those guns in anger? or even threatened to use them?

I was on Ciara in 1990 and we sank a 1000t barge that had capsized off Arklow as it was a danger to shipping. The 76mm had never been fired in Irish service and the skipper asked for permission to fire it to sink the barge. They told him it was up to him - we fired 8 rounds I think and missed with all of them. Single shot, single shot, gun went full auto and fired 6 rounds, and that was the end of that.

So we sank it with GPMG's and .5s (which jammed as the LS in charge put the belts in the wrong way round)

I put 300 rounds of AP and Tracer rounds into it

skooterblue2 · 07-12-2018 12:30pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

So we sank it with GPMG's and .5s (which jammed as the LS in charge put the belts in the wrong way round)

Can you please explain two things? How that did that moron get through basic to be LS? and what was going through his mind when he turned the ammo belt upside down? He must have been more excited than a virgin on prom night

roadmaster · 07-12-2018 12:57pm

The EPV/MRV or what ever it is going to me is there any of our fellow smaller European friends currently in the market for a similar product?

Yawlboy · 07-12-2018 1:02pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Can you please explain two things? How that did that moron get through basic to be LS? and what was going through his mind when he turned the ammo belt upside down? He must have been more excited than a virgin on prom night

We were in Dublin for the weekend and 1/3 of the crew had left the ship to attend the funeral of a colleague who had passed away, including most of the NCO's except for one junior LS. So we were seriously undercrewed.

The Browning HMG (.5) ammo belt has 2 connectors on one side and one on the other. You need to ensure it is fed properly, he had obviously forgotten this. I was on one bridgewing GPMG (7.62) and another seaman was on the other bridgewing GPMG. The LS was crewing both midships .5's and both of them jammed. The Gunnery Officer told him to forget it after the first 2 runs and let us finish with the GPMG's

I think we did 4 runs each side and I put 50, 50, 100, 100 rounds into it. Then the Gunnery Officer said he would take over for the next run and we came around but she was sunk .

If I remember correctly if was a large flat bottomed barge with a crane on it that had capsized and they said it was 1000 tons.

sparky42 · 07-12-2018 1:36pm

roadmaster wrote: »

The EPV/MRV or what ever it is going to me is there any of our fellow smaller European friends currently in the market for a similar product?

Off the top of my head I don't think so, particularly of course because we still don't know what it actually will be. There's plenty of "paper ship" proposals from manufacturers that might fit the idea but I don't think anyone else is ordering something like it in the same time frame.

roadmaster · 07-12-2018 1:55pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Off the top of my head I don't think so, particularly of course because we still don't know what it actually will be. There's plenty of "paper ship" proposals from manufacturers that might fit the idea but I don't think anyone else is ordering something like it in the same time frame.

I presume it will be more expensive ordering a one off instead of the way we got the last 4. If there was a need by other country's for vessels to it could be easier to order 3 or 4 together. I believe this is what we are now doing with drugs (legal)

ohnonotgmail · 07-12-2018 1:59pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

I was on Ciara in 1990 and we sank a 1000t barge that had capsized off Arklow as it was a danger to shipping. The 76mm had never been fired in Irish service and the skipper asked for permission to fire it to sink the barge. They told him it was up to him - we fired 8 rounds I think and missed with all of them. Single shot, single shot, gun went full auto and fired 6 rounds, and that was the end of that.

So we sank it with GPMG's and .5s (which jammed as the LS in charge put the belts in the wrong way round)

I put 300 rounds of AP and Tracer rounds into it

I get that it had never been shot in anger before but surely the 76mm has been shot in training? 8 rounds on a static target and not a single hit.

Yawlboy · 07-12-2018 2:13pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I get that it had never been shot in anger before but surely the 76mm has been shot in training? 8 rounds on a static target and not a single hit.

Nope, it is my understanding that it was the first time they were fired in Irish Service. We were sent up the bow to grab the shell casings, we got 7 of them. The brass in the base were after being on the radio asking for the casings if the skipper decided to use the 76.

The gun is aimed from a gyro stabilizing platform on top of the bridge. We were very close and it was a very small target plus we were rolling a lot. First round ricocheted off the water beyond the target and splashed down a few hundred meters away. Second did the same, but in a different direction. The gun then decided to go fully automatic, 6 rounds in as many seconds..... until the PO in charge of the GCC hit the stop button.

The skipper then decided to use the secondary armaments.

roadmaster · 07-12-2018 2:29pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

Nope, it is my understanding that it was the first time they were fired in Irish Service. We were sent up the bow to grab the shell casings, we got 7 of them. The brass in the base were after being on the radio asking for the casings if the skipper decided to use the 76.

The gun is aimed from a gyro stabilizing platform on top of the bridge. We were very close and it was a very small target plus we were rolling a lot. First round ricocheted off the water beyond the target and splashed down a few hundred meters away. Second did the same, but in a different direction. The gun then decided to go fully automatic, 6 rounds in as many seconds..... until the PO in charge of the GCC hit the stop button.

The skipper then decided to use the secondary armaments.

Jesus by the sounds of it Arklow had a lucky escape!

3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

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