Health system, Homelessness, Broadband, Recession Pt2 incoming due to stupidity

dxhound2005 · 01-12-2018 04:52PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

There are now repeated warnings about future government budget proposals. I don’t know when things will crash again. But I do know we have jaw dropping national debt , I don’t even think this budget was balanced , despite the fact the place is allegedly booming and first and foremost , those running the the show are morons beyond belief. When interest rates rise, it will suck more money out of peoples pockets , this insane property shambles is destroying people’s purchasing power ...

If you want to see jaw dropping look at Japan or the USA. Ours is very close to the EU recommendation of 60%.

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/government-debt-to-gdp

01-12-2018 04:54PM

limnam wrote: »

The big point that you fail to understand is a private company must make money. It _must_ be profitable. Otherwise the business goes under and no one has a job.

Now if you're the owner of a shop and the assistance is constantly providing bad service and it in turn costs the shop money, people can choose to go to another shop etc.

I can't choose to get my passport somewhere else, or do my taxes somewhere else etc.

A shop owner can simply remove the problem.

In the PS there's no onus on making money or providing value for money etc.

Everyone in the PS "shop" including the management team won't lose their job if the service continues to be bad and the shop will stay open no matter what.

youve a bad aul habit of offering simple anecdote and clearly biased opinion as if it were an argument

limnam · 01-12-2018 05:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

youve a bad aul habit of offering simple anecdote and clearly biased opinion as if it were an argument

I didn't provide the anecdote, I used the one created to reply.

ToddyDoody · 01-12-2018 05:22PM

vargoo wrote: »

Such a bunch of idiots we have running things and it's the same bunch of idiots in there for decades, what's wrong with you people on here that keep putting these idiots back in. That fool currently in Healthcare, and all the gobsh1tes before him that sat back happy to take the fat pay check and do nothing for it. I'm honestly amazed that someone that's been wronged over the years by these bottom feeders hasn't sought out revenge. Seriously. That Martin lad leader, any fool on here that votes for him want to tell us why? Really love to know. That Coveney fella, mother of god.

I'm so sick of the same fuking problems going on for years.

Before anyone says why don't you run, I'm obviously not stupid or corrupt enough to get in, duh.

(This flowed outta me this way, if a mod wants to put it more eloquently, have at it)

I love the way everyone starts responding to this post that dropped out of somene's backside as if it's a legitimate starting point for conversation on the same old topics.

Would you be happier about it all if it was Summer op. For one, the politicians would be on holidays. Of course not, it's always the politicians, never the person's mood with life.

Ray Palmer · 01-12-2018 05:57PM

limnam wrote: »

This crops up all the time, the difference is in the private sector you can get rid of bad apples/lazy people etc fairly easily.

Also the people around them won't tend to stand for it.

Where in the PS it seems been lazy/slow/useless is the defacto and they all protect each other to the point if someone joins and wants to work "properly" they're basically told what's what and they have to toe the line.

Why would you be eager to do well if you're going to be rewarded regardless.

Have you worked in the PS?

I am telling you from my experience is there is no difference. People are rarely fired from anywhere. The idea that every PS servant is looking out for each other and defend each other is ridiculous. It is exactly the same in all large organisations. Generally you have the same issue with the same type of employee at the lower end. I have worked in both and incompetence is accepted and people are moved sideways most of the time rather than fired. That goes for top consultancy firms just as civil servants. The main issue is low level clerks don't rally exist in many companies but they are all the same where they exist. Like insurance and financial services. The PS deal with more people and are seen more often hence more criticism.

There will always be inefficiencies and a percentage of failure but added to that is unreasonable demands.

limnam · 01-12-2018 06:09PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Have you worked in the PS?

A long side them but not hired by them

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I am telling you from my experience is there is no difference.

Then I have to assume it's very limited.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

People are rarely fired from anywhere. The idea that every PS servant is looking out for each other and defend each other is ridiculous. It is exactly the same in all large organisations. Generally you have the same issue with the same type of employee at the lower end. I have worked in both and incompetence is accepted and people are moved sideways most of the time rather than fired. That goes for top consultancy firms just as civil servants. The main issue is low level clerks don't rally exist in many companies but they are all the same where they exist. Like insurance and financial services. The PS deal with more people and are seen more often hence more criticism.

There will always be inefficiencies and a percentage of failure but added to that is unreasonable demands.

It's not so much they all look out for each other.

but it's hard to define someone doing fck all. When everyone around you is also doing fck all. It's just the culture of it and I guess fairly natural when no one is concerned about losing their job.

So if you manage to actually bring someone in from the private sector who's competent and a hardworker it's taking out of them fairly quickly so they fall in or leave.

I'm sure there's private companies where there's incompetence. But it's still _easier_ in private companies to get rid of the dross and it's done, a hell of a lot more than the PS. As I said private companies need to make money. If it's full of incompetent people it simply can't survive. The same can not be said for the PS and it breath's the culture been discussed.

It's also difficult to reward really good people

look at the teachers at the moment whining about equal pay.

Really good teachers are so few and far between. The good ones should be rewarded. The average ones scale should stall and the useless ones got shot of.

But lets just want equal pay for equal work even though none of them are equal. It's nuts. Look at the asti ballot thread. I've never came across a more delusional bunch.

dxhound2005 · 01-12-2018 06:14PM

limnam wrote: »

A long side them but not hired by them

Really good teachers are so few and far between. The good ones should be rewarded. The average ones scale should stall and the useless ones got shot of.

There are thousands of teachers. What are you basing that assessment on?

limnam · 01-12-2018 06:19PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There are thousands of teachers. What are you basing that assessment on?

That's all you took from that post.

my own anecdotal flimsy stats.

twinytwo · 02-12-2018 04:00PM

vargoo wrote: »

What is the problem with getting rid of all the excess jobs? This is given as a reason over and over for years, why is nothing done?

Public service = jobs for life. Naturally no politician is ever going to do anything about it because it would affect them.

People in Ireland are took weak willed and/or lazy. Country needs a revolution or Europe needs another war - put an end to all the BS that has crept in in the last 30/40 years.

twinytwo · 02-12-2018 04:03PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There are thousands of teachers. What are you basing that assessment on?

Personal experience?

The Tetrarch · 02-12-2018 04:07PM

vargoo wrote: »

Such a bunch of idiots we have running things and it's the same bunch of idiots in there for decades, what's wrong with you people on here that keep putting these idiots back in. That fool currently in Healthcare, and all the gobsh1tes before him that sat back happy to take the fat pay check and do nothing for it. I'm honestly amazed that someone that's been wronged over the years by these bottom feeders hasn't sought out revenge. Seriously. That Martin lad leader, any fool on here that votes for him want to tell us why? Really love to know. That Coveney fella, mother of god.

I'm so sick of the same fuking problems going on for years.

Before anyone says why don't you run, I'm obviously not stupid or corrupt enough to get in, duh.

(This flowed outta me this way, if a mod wants to put it more eloquently, have at it)

Are you Mary-Lou McDonald's speechwriter by any chance?

vargoo · 02-12-2018 07:09PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Are you Mary-Lou McDonald's speechwriter by any chance?

Hahahaha hahaha another hilarious lad.

November worst month for overcrowding ever, 9679 waiting on trolleys. Limerick leading the way as the worst for the 18th month in a row. How can that harris lad stand over that, heading for 3 years as health minister, well done Wicklow for continually voting him in for 7 years now, all idiots.

vargoo · 02-12-2018 07:12PM

3 months of record overcrowding coming, everyday/week it's all we're gonna hear about.

The hilarious lad above needs a family member in the mix, might cop on then abit.

Fordcspri23 · 02-12-2018 07:18PM

They might supply ky jelly this time.

02-12-2018 09:13PM

limnam wrote: »

This crops up all the time, the difference is in the private sector you can get rid of bad apples/lazy people etc fairly easily.

Sounds like a lot of those private sector employers are fairly crap at recruiting the best staff, and managing and motivating them too if they have to keep firing people?

Maybe they should take some lessons from the public sector on how to recruit properly first time round?

When they fire these 'bad apples', do they also fire the gob****e that recruited the bad apple in the first place?

02-12-2018 09:26PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Get rid of the unions in the HSE and watch patient care rise.

Hard to see how patient care would rise when even more staff would be queueing up to head to Australia and UK where they would have normal employee rights.

limnam · 02-12-2018 09:49PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe they should take some lessons from the public sector on how to recruit properly first time round?

TeeHee!

02-12-2018 09:52PM

twinytwo wrote: »

Public service = jobs for life.

job til 68 these days, same as private sector or thereabouts

02-12-2018 10:13PM

twinytwo wrote: »

If i recall correctly - when the hse was set up, the unions ensured that no jobs were lost (even though the idea was to make everything more efficient).. as a result it made things worse...a lot worse.

But sure so long as the unions get their dues why do they give a **** about the health system.

Would you like to be specific about which HSE staff should be dropped now? Would it be the ones who do the payroll? Or the ones who are building the IT systems to transform us into the era of eHealth? Or the ones who are keeping the old IT applications running well past their sell-by dates? Or the bed managers who are juggling the limited resources available to them every day to try to work miracles with scarce resources?

Which particular staff should be dropped now?

TallGlass wrote: »

At the moment our elected reps are like a home router, you give them a problem they route it to another person, but in this age I can do that myself, so I fail to see what it is they actually are doing.

Seriously. Go to your local TD and see for yourself how brutal they are. Just enquire about something simple you'd maybe like where you live, like a tree or something planted. Honestly, give it a go you'd be surprised how the smallest things to sort out or fix are blown out of all proportion and how they can't help as its not for them to do so.

If you're going to your TD about local authority issues, you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

limnam wrote: »

In the PS there's no onus on making money or providing value for money etc.

You're right about the 'no onus to make money'. This isn't a criticism or a flaw. This is the very nature of public service. It's not about making money. You don't get to choose your customers or limit them. You generally don't get to set barriers like customer fees. The customers keep on coming, and you have to keep on serving them.

And all the customer surveys show that, by and large, most customers are happy about the service most of the time.

limnam wrote: »

Really good teachers are so few and far between. The good ones should be rewarded. The average ones scale should stall and the useless ones got shot of.

Given that you seem to be an expert at all of this, you might tell us how you're going to measure what makes a really good teacher worthy of rewarding?

limnam · 02-12-2018 10:34PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You're right about the 'no onus to make money'. This isn't a criticism or a flaw. This is the very nature of public service. It's not about making money. You don't get to choose your customers or limit them. You generally don't get to set barriers like customer fees. The customers keep on coming, and you have to keep on serving them.

And all the customer surveys show that, by and large, most customers are happy about the service most of the time.

No one said it was a criticism.

But you failed to see the point that was been made.

Not much attention to detail. I take it you work in the PS

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Given that you seem to be an expert at all of this, you might tell us how you're going to measure what makes a really good teacher worthy of rewarding?

I'm sure it wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do and do right, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try at least to give a real attempt at equal pay for equal work and not equal pay for having the same job title.

I guess similar to ways it works in the private sector with "360" performance reviews.

Targets in themselves cause some issues. If you present a teacher with a target for financial reward they'll find a way to hit.

So a combination of target based metrics (results, depending on age/class/subject/etc) and a 360 review. This could come in the form of. Parent/Student/peer/managment review/teacher themselves

Again you can come with lots of "difficulties" why it wouldn't work. A teacher in Blackrock/Stilorgan compared to one in Tallaght etc and sure it wouldn't be easy as i said but that doesn't mean we shouldn't bother.

We could throw in a full overhaul of the education system with it, would make the above easier and make it actually fit for purpose.

02-12-2018 10:53PM

limnam wrote: »

No one said it was a criticism.

But you failed to see the point that was been made.

Not much attention to detail. I take it you work in the PS

No-one said that you said that it was a criticism. You seem to lack a little attention to detail yourself. Have a think about that.

limnam wrote: »

I'm sure it wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do and do right, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try at least to give a real attempt at equal pay for equal work and not equal pay for having the same job title.

I guess similar to ways it works in the private sector with "360" performance reviews.

Targets in themselves cause some issues. If you present a teacher with a target for financial reward they'll find a way to hit.

So a combination of target based metrics (results, depending on age/class/subject/etc) and a 360 review. This could come in the form of. Parent/Student/peer/managment review/teacher themselves

Again you can come with lots of "difficulties" why it wouldn't work. A teacher in Blackrock/Stilorgan compared to one in Tallaght etc and sure it wouldn't be easy as i said but that doesn't mean we shouldn't bother.

We could throw in a full overhaul of the education system with it, would make the above easier and make it actually fit for purpose.

Interesting to see that 'you're sure' about something that has eluded the people who have worked in the field all their lives, the people who have PhDs in the area, the people who have worked for governments on this stuff.

You've fallen into the two obvious traps that anyone who has even a superficial knowledge of the education system (such as me) would know about:

1 - 360-degree evaluation doesn't work, because a teacher's peers have no role or involvement in their teaching, and the teacher doesn't have direct reports. Teaching is not a team sport. It is the teacher, and the students. There are of course a few exceptions to this, with co-teaching and SNAs, but in general, asking the peers their opinion of their colleague is like asking a total outsider - they have nothing other than gossip to add.

2 - 'based on results' means that the teachers whose pupils have access to grinds get the best results, and the teachers whose pupils have access to the best technology get the best results, and the teachers whose pupils have access to exchange visits and educational trips get the best results - so basically, teachers in wealthier areas get the best rewards under your system - the risk get richer and the poor get poorer.

So perhaps before you let yourself be 'sure' about things, you might want to do a little bit of research.

But hey, that's the joy of working in the public sector, everyone outside thinks they're an expert, though the reality is slightly different.

limnam · 02-12-2018 11:05PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

1 - 360-degree evaluation doesn't work, because a teacher's peers have no role or involvement in their teaching, and the teacher doesn't have direct reports. Teaching is not a team sport. It is the teacher, and the students. There are of course a few exceptions to this, with co-teaching and SNAs, but in general, asking the peers their opinion of their colleague is like asking a total outsider - they have nothing other than gossip to add.

S/he has students, those students have parents. (The most important people. (his/her customers)

The teacher has a "Manager"
You can add in inspectors etc

You build it up and get a "profile" of the teacher.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

2 - 'based on results' means that the teachers whose pupils have access to grinds get the best results, and the teachers whose pupils have access to the best technology get the best results, and the teachers whose pupils have access to exchange visits and educational trips get the best results - so basically, teachers in wealthier areas get the best rewards under your system - the risk get richer and the poor get poorer.

Absolute. Your taking results as 1 thing. The "target"/"result" can be many things dependant on a number of factors.

Again, if you're student "aces" a course but every parent wrote you're an unapproachable cnt bag in the review, it won't add up.

You're a typical PS type. Find the way not to do something instead of the way to do it.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So perhaps before you let yourself be 'sure' about things, you might want to do a little bit of research.

But hey, that's the joy of working in the public sector, everyone outside thinks they're an expert, though the reality is slightly different.

As I said. It's a difficult thing to do. but "we" don't do even attempt to try.

Never claimed to be an expert. But I am an unhappy customer.

Send me one of those surveys.

02-12-2018 11:42PM

limnam wrote: »

S/he has students, those students have parents. (The most important people. (his/her customers)

The teacher has a "Manager"
You can add in inspectors etc

You build it up and get a "profile" of the teacher.

So parents would get to contribute to how much a teacher earns? Interesting idea, given that for most parents, their direct involvement with a teacher is a 5-10 minute meeting once a year. Everything else parents have is second hand. So is that really a sound basis for contributing to a review?

Let's say your CEO stands up tomorrow and announces a new review system in your business, where the parents or siblings of your customers get to rate your performance based on what they've heard second hand, how are you going to react?

So now the teacher's role changes from having to get the best out of pupils to staying on the best side of the parent - not quite a great basis for performance management. The teacher who pushes the student to get the best result regardless of whether that is popular or not with parents or students now gets the worst review scores.

limnam wrote: »

Absolute. Your taking results as 1 thing. The "target"/"result" can be many things dependant on a number of factors.

Again, if you're student "aces" a course but every parent wrote you're an unapproachable cnt bag in the review, it won't add up.

So now it becomes a popularity contest - the teacher has to smooch up to parents, via their students in order to maximise their salary - is that really how we want to run schools?

Or what particular kinds of 'results' did you have in mind?

limnam wrote: »

You're a typical PS type. Find the way not to do something instead of the way to do it.

Finding the way not to do something is what stops us from p1ssing away public money on things like eVoting. If you think the public sector has teams of people sitting round just waiting for some genius to come up with a great new idea to be 'tried', you're quite wrong.

limnam wrote: »

As I said. It's a difficult thing to do. but "we" don't do even attempt to try.

How exactly did you work out that 'we don't attempt to try'? Have you checked with Dept Education? Have you checked with the teacher training colleges? Have you checked with the Teaching Council?

Or did you just come up with a whim and expect the world to jump on your idea?

limnam wrote: »

Never claimed to be an expert. But I am an unhappy customer.

Send me one of those surveys.

You'll find the survey results for civil service on the Dept Taoiseach web site if you're really interested. Lots of other public bodies do their own surveys, which a bit of online searching should show up fairly quickly.

Gimme A Pound · 02-12-2018 11:53PM

klaaaz wrote: »

As per the usual suspects blaming the poor(and now badly paid civil servants added to the list) for their own failures in acquiring a better paid job(their own AH mantra) in order to afford high healthcare, high housing costs, high childcare costs, high gas/electricity costs along with a long commute which they all voted for via FFG in the first place. Your own kids will suffer the same in adulthood unless you change your neo capitalist ways, think about that.

"Neo capitalist" - what? Everyone living in the west is a capitalist. Because of capitalism, you can buy what you want, when you want. You can set up your own business. You don't have to depend entirely on the state. Capitalism is not just greed.

Evidence that they "all" voted for FF or FG?

And where is anyone blaming the poor or civil servants for their own failures in acquiring a better paid job?

Granted I think a lot of the whining about the public sector in relation to junior staff is completely unfair but there does appear to be poor management, however how are people blaming that for not finding a better paid job?

And will people ever give over with this "the poor" shyte? People do not condemn the poor - the genuinely needy like the disabled and sick, the unemployed who lost their job and are struggling to find work to meet reasonable debts, the elderly, the carers. The people being criticised are those who are perfectly able-bodied but just will not work or train, or anything to help contribute to the national kitty, and have a sense of entitlement that is absolutely shocking. Again though, how are people blaming them for not securing a better job?

And it is indeed a downright disgrace that people who work hard and pay their own way have to put up with ****ty commutes and a crazy high cost of living with no help.

mammajamma · 03-12-2018 12:15AM

Hey, we'll always have Paris!

*looks at paris*

Things are looking good!

ressem · 03-12-2018 12:17AM

No sign of the OP backing up his claim that it's all down to 'stupidity'.

Some problems just take time to implement. Rural electrification took 19 years for the 1st phase, the commodification of broadband is way quicker.
https://esbarchives.ie/key-rural-facts/

Broadband is getting better. In increments. Quite a lot of large towns & a number of providers gradually rolling out low priced gigabit fiber to households and businesses in small towns. A neighbouring business dependent on fast internet is locked into paying over 10K per year for their fiber. My employers will likely get gigabit broadband for 1/100 of the price within the next year; in a rural area.
(15 years ago it was 10K+ for 256Kb frame relay)

Health system.
So..
Where's the huge savings to be made, or where is additional money to have the greatest benefit?

Sulking about union intransigence is useless unless there is a specific solution that they are blocking? What is that?

We keep getting throwaway tabloid headlines that the private sector doctors are milking the system, that the HSE are milking the system, that the unions are milking the system, that the pharma companies are milking the system.

Where's the big transfer of budget to be made?

Youve got a comprehensive breakdown of where the money goes in table 4
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/sha/systemofhealthaccounts2016/
The graphs show that in GNI terms, funding went from 6.5% (2000) to 11% (2016). It does a lot more treatment, and high tech treatments than it used to.

€20 billion in spending, 2 billion from the health insurance payments, 2.6 billion in out-of-pocket spending, 14.6 paid by government.

HSE bit is 520 million. Total pay and pensions 5.1 billion.

About 4.5 billion spent in 2016 on in-patient hospital services, 1.2 in day care, 4 billion in outpatient care
Nursing homes and long term residential care €2.6 billion
Home based long term care €1.58 billion.

GPs dentists and outpatient care €4.1 billion
€2.9 billion in pharmaceuticals and other medical supplies.
€660 million in preventative care.

It's very likely that joe public can write a load of flaws and probable inefficiencies and discomforts as they walk through an A&E. So what are the non-stupid fixes?

03-12-2018 12:20AM

first thing i can think of is bonuses like in the private sector

and choosing whose custom we want like in the private sector

and if we arent making money we just fold like in the private sector

learn from the best like

03-12-2018 12:31AM

ressem wrote: »

It's very likely that joe public can write a load of flaws and probable inefficiencies and discomforts as they walk through an A&E.

Is it really very likely? How exactly did you work that out?

twinytwo · 03-12-2018 02:56PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would you like to be specific about which HSE staff should be dropped now? Would it be the ones who do the payroll? Or the ones who are building the IT systems to transform us into the era of eHealth? Or the ones who are keeping the old IT applications running well past their sell-by dates? Or the bed managers who are juggling the limited resources available to them every day to try to work miracles ?

Every organisation needs it staff, managers etc. However if they ever did a non biased audit of the HSE they would find massive amounts of work/job duplication etc. Too many middle management etc. As a result we pour billions every year into the hse and things always get worse

The HSE was a good idea on paper but the unions turned it into a **** show. In every restructure you will lose staff.....Now its just a poison challace that no one is willing to fix because it would be seen a political suicide.

06-12-2018 09:39PM

twinytwo wrote: »

Every organisation needs it staff, managers etc. However if they ever did a non biased audit of the HSE they would find massive amounts of work/job duplication etc. Too many middle management etc.

Really? Which sections have all these duplicated staff, and how exactly are your sure about this duplication? Is it that you heard some commentator say it on the radio once, or is there anything factual behind your view?

twinytwo wrote: »

The HSE was a good idea on paper but the unions turned it into a **** show. In every restructure you will lose staff.....Now its just a poison challace that no one is willing to fix because it would be seen a political suicide.

If the presence of unions was a surprise to those who came up with the 'good idea', it doesn't sound like they did much serious planning.

Last time I heard Charles Normand speak, he emphasised the importance of NOT getting tied up trying to fix the structure. It was a non-issue in his expert opinion.

https://www.tcd.ie/medicine/research/researchers/charles-normand.php

But I'm sure the average Boards poster knows better than a professor of health policy.

Health system, Homelessness, Broadband, Recession Pt2 incoming due to stupidity

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