Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

devnull · 26-11-2018 11:32PM

You know I keep thinking about this deal and if I had a vote on it, what way I would vote and honestly I don't know to be quite honest if I could vote the deal down, even if I was a Brit and the fact that it's not a great deal and I'd prefer to stay in the European Union.

My biggest fear of voting against the deal would be that it would end in a No Deal Brexit which would be a catastrophe. Even though I think the deal has it's flaws part of me says that I would vote for it, because of the fact that the risk of a No Deal is so great.

Ideally I'd like to see a peoples vote or the UK not to leave, but the question that keeps coming to me, is that is it worth risking plunging the country into the biggest catastrophe since World War 2, to try and get something that may not even happen? And honestly, I find it difficult to take that risk.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Being widely reported now that Trump is sticking his small hands in saying how the deal favours the EU and not the UK and that the deal could make it more difficult to strike a deal between US & UK...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/trump-says-brexit-deal-sounds-great-for-eu-but-not-for-uk-1.3711369

Indeed and you can be sure that Mr Putin, who is clearly going to be behind what the President of the United States is saying, is very happy with this affair and that may well be part of the motivation, given the obvious ties between Trump and Russia and also the ties between hard Brexiteers and Russia.

bilston · 26-11-2018 11:33PM

Gintonious wrote: »

So what will happen then if this doesn't get past parliament? Or am I not supposed to ask a question like that?

It's pretty much unknown territory. I'd guess some form of second vote...whether that includes an option for Remain or not I don't know. Maybe a general election. But I don't see that changing anything based on current opinion polls.

I don't want the UK to leave the EU but I'm increasingly coming round to the idea that a second referendum could be beyond toxic. In fact I'd genuinely fear what could potentially happen in the event of a Remain victory in a second referendum.

Frank Bullitt · 26-11-2018 11:39PM

bilston wrote: »

It's pretty much unknown territory. I'd guess some form of second vote...whether that includes an option for Remain or not I don't know. Maybe a general election. But I don't see that changing anything based on current opinion polls.

I don't want the UK to leave the EU but I'm increasingly coming round to the idea that a second referendum could be beyond toxic. In fact I'd genuinely fear what could potentially happen in the event of a Remain victory in a second referendum.

I was thinking the same.

The only people asking for a second ref are remainers, those who want to leave would never want a second ref because they have what they want (well almost).

It's no longer just a case of those who want to remain or leave, you can throw in those who want to remain but will want to honour the vote and leave, and so on and so forth.

As for a GE, you are basically vying for the captaincy of a sinking ship.

The U.K basically has the option of being shot or being stabbed.

Water John · 26-11-2018 11:45PM

Politics is about analysis and then deciding. This means different sides, winners and losers. So put Remain or the TM Deal to the people, go with the answer.

Frank Bullitt · 26-11-2018 11:49PM

Water John wrote: »

Politics is about analysis and then deciding. This means different sides, winners and losers. So put Remain or the TM Deal to the people, go with the answer.

Current deal or remain wouldn't cover it though surely?

Water John · 26-11-2018 11:52PM

Yes it would. One is Remain, the other is leave. This is a negotiated leave, so people know it's what's available. Crash out Brexit is the field of nutters and has only the support of about 30 MPs. No Eu country would defy an Art 50 extension, as it's for the purpose of obtaining a democratic decision from the people.

Frank Bullitt · 26-11-2018 11:54PM

Water John wrote: »

Yes it would. One is Remain, the other is leave. This is a negotiated leave, so people know it's what's available. Crash out Brexit is the field of nutters and has only the support of about 30 MPs.

Would there not be the "we can get a better deal" crowd now?

trellheim · 27-11-2018 12:03AM

Off twitter : heres the note from the chief whip showing the debate schedule.

CCLA = Commons Consideration of Lords Amendments.

Final Vote 11 December. Or whatever you are having yourself

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ds8awmiXcAM7lLc.jpg:large

Water John · 27-11-2018 12:21AM

The only 'we can get a better deal' that might get an EU hearing is if they were suggesting staying closer to the EU than the present Deal, eg in the CU and the SM.

Capt'n Midnight · 27-11-2018 12:35AM

McGiver wrote: »

But then the GE would have to campaigned on a People's Vote manifesto by Labour and they would have to win it. Is this the Labour strategy? I know there is a rather large fraction in the party who support people's vote but I'm not sure Labour as a whole would go for this as an election manifesto.

Another option is not notifying the EEA that the UK is leaving and I understand that that is sufficient for the UK to stay in it. Joining EFTA is a different business though.

EEA membership is only open to EFTA or EU countries.

The EFTA would have to renegotiate 38 trade deals and allow the UK a dominant position due to GDP and population in return for Sweet FA.
http://www.ejinsight.com/20180411-can-britain-rejoin-efta-after-brexit/

since the EFTA has already concluded trade agreements with not only the EU but also 38 other economies (e.g., Canada, Mexico and South Korea), there is a grave concern among the Norwegians that they might have to renegotiate those deals since Britain’s re-entry would fundamentally change the EFTA’s existing structure and balance.

As far as Switzerland is concerned, it also doesn’t want Britain to rejoin the EFTA for fear that its status as the banking and financial hub of the association would be replaced by London.

...
As for Liechtenstein,... the tiny country is worried that once Britain is allowed to rejoin the EFTA, British overseas territories such as Guernsey and Jersey in the Channel Islands may threaten its thriving business.

I'd add that Norway and Iceland more aligned to Scotland than England.

Iceland. Fishing. Three Cod Wars. One winner.

Anthracite · 27-11-2018 01:19AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Iceland. Fishing. Three Cod Wars. One winner.

It's so funny to see all of the UK's colonial karma coming back and kicking it in the ass, especially as this Brexit thing is driven largely by those who have the mentality that a) the Empire was great and b) it's due a comeback.

Kermit.de.frog · 27-11-2018 02:33AM

Any deal must contain the backstop or there will be no deal as Theresa May says.

Either way the unionists are right to be worried because it seems to me in any Brexit they will remain in the EU's single market and customs union.

But that's not our fault, it's a consequence of Brexit which the DUP supported.

An extraordinary own goal.

prinzeugen · 27-11-2018 03:07AM

Anthracite wrote: »

It's so funny to see all of the UK's colonial karma coming back and kicking it in the ass, especially as this Brexit thing is driven largely by those who have the mentality that a) the Empire was great and b) it's due a comeback.

Its also funny to watch France try to take over Europe. This idea that some here have about britex being about the British empire is utter bollox.

Look at the back of a €50 note. There are more French and Spanish colonies there than British.

But hey ho only the British are bad.

Peregrinus · 27-11-2018 03:42AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Its also funny to watch France try to take over Europe. This idea that some here have about britex being about the British empire is utter bollox.

Look at the back of a €50 note. There are more French and Spanish colonies there than British.

France has six "overseas countries and territories" which are in a special relationship with the EU, though not part of it. Spain has one. The UK has thirteen.

Peregrinus · 27-11-2018 03:58AM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Trump has weighed in on May's deal which won't help her cause.

https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1067149444884455424

https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1067157475030429697

This will be a blow to Liam Fox who has been keen on pushing a US deal. Wonder what he's thinking because I believe he's been supporting May up to now.

My sources at court tell me that HMG had been quietly lobbying Washington over the past few days from some supportive noises about the deal, which might help May sell it to those Brexiters who obsess about a US/UK trade deal.

Good to see Trump burnishing his reputation as a good friend, a rock of co-operation and encouragement.

Zubeneschamali · 27-11-2018 07:46AM

devnull wrote: »

My biggest fear of voting against the deal would be that it would end in a No Deal Brexit which would be a catastrophe.

Seeing the same nonsense from the Brexiteers 2 years on, I am coming around to the idea that the best outcome long term could be no-deal crashout.

After the chaos, the empty supermarkets, the riots and looting, the march on Westminster with torches and pitchforks, the UK might actually learn something.

Peregrinus · 27-11-2018 08:16AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Seeing the same nonsense from the Brexiteers 2 years on, I am coming around to the idea that the best outcome long term could be no-deal crashout.

After the chaos, the empty supermarkets, the riots and looting, the march on Westminster with torches and pitchforks, the UK might actually learn something.

Possibly. But we in Ireland would pay a heavy price for them to learn that. And I'm not feeling quite that altruistic.

Iderown · 27-11-2018 08:25AM

Even if the present deal is accepted the UK government could well sit on its hands for the two years (telling all how wonderful it is) and then end with no trade deals or other necessary internal UK processes. OK - I'm a pessimist.

Peregrinus · 27-11-2018 08:36AM

Iderown wrote: »

Even if the present deal is accepted the UK government could well sit on its hands for the two years (telling all how wonderful it is) and then end with no trade deals or other necessary internal UK processes. OK - I'm a pessimist.

They could, yes. But if they do that the backstop kicks in at the end of the transitional period, and sheer self-interest will mean that they want very very much to avoid that. Or, if they can't avoid that, at least to be able to say that it wasn't their inaction that led to the backstop kicking in.

So I don't think they'll sit on their hands.

Infini · 27-11-2018 08:57AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Renegotiation - Think EU are adamant and united that this will not happen
Extension - Hard to see the point of it unless renegotiation is going to take place
General Election - Seems most realistic option but expect a demand for both renegotiation and extension should this happen for obvious reasons.
No Deal - Good luck UK. We wish you well.
An Other - Theresa May throws curve ball and announces peoples vote and agrees extension to A50 until this is held. (Queue all hell breaking loose)

Forgot one option that could be played there...

Brexit Cancelled May carries out her threat to cancel Brexit based on the fact that parliment cannot agree to the deal, there is no more time for negotiation, not enough time for a 2nd referendum, possible tanking of sterling in the aftermath of HoC rejecting WA and the strait up refusal of the majority of MP's to allow Brexiteers to have a no deal scenario play out. Total Nuclear Option for May but compared to a crash out its better to bite the bullet on this than contemplate and risk a potential UK breakup because of Brexit.

First Up · 27-11-2018 09:11AM

Infini wrote: »

Tell me how wrote: »

Renegotiation - Think EU are adamant and united that this will not happen
Extension - Hard to see the point of it unless renegotiation is going to take place
General Election - Seems most realistic option but expect a demand for both renegotiation and extension should this happen for obvious reasons.
No Deal - Good luck UK. We wish you well.
An Other - Theresa May throws curve ball and announces peoples vote and agrees extension to A50 until this is held. (Queue all hell breaking loose)

Forgot one option that could be played there...

Brexit Cancelled May carries out her threat to cancel Brexit based on the fact that parliment cannot agree to the deal, there is no more time for negotiation, not enough time for a 2nd referendum, possible tanking of sterling in the aftermath of HoC rejecting WA and the strait up refusal of the majority of MP's to allow Brexiteers to have a no deal scenario play out. Total Nuclear Option for May but compared to a crash out its better to bite the bullet on this than contemplate and risk a potential UK breakup because of Brexit.

That is not in her gift. It would need a majority in the HoC and you would need a pretty spectacular political re-alignment to achieve that.

It might reduce the damage to the UK economy from this madnesd but at the price of much of the British political system.

First Up · 27-11-2018 09:12AM

Infini wrote: »

Tell me how wrote: »

Renegotiation - Think EU are adamant and united that this will not happen
Extension - Hard to see the point of it unless renegotiation is going to take place
General Election - Seems most realistic option but expect a demand for both renegotiation and extension should this happen for obvious reasons.
No Deal - Good luck UK. We wish you well.
An Other - Theresa May throws curve ball and announces peoples vote and agrees extension to A50 until this is held. (Queue all hell breaking loose)

Forgot one option that could be played there...

Brexit Cancelled May carries out her threat to cancel Brexit based on the fact that parliment cannot agree to the deal, there is no more time for negotiation, not enough time for a 2nd referendum, possible tanking of sterling in the aftermath of HoC rejecting WA and the strait up refusal of the majority of MP's to allow Brexiteers to have a no deal scenario play out. Total Nuclear Option for May but compared to a crash out its better to bite the bullet on this than contemplate and risk a potential UK breakup because of Brexit.

That is not in her gift. It would need a majority in the HoC and you would need a pretty spectacular political re-alignment to achieve that.

It might reduce the damage to the UK economy from this madness but at the price of much of the British political system.

Peregrinus · 27-11-2018 09:49AM

First Up wrote: »

That is not in her gift. It would need a majority in the HoC and you would need a pretty spectacular political re-alignment to achieve that.

There's also the possibility, which hasn't really been discussed very much, that cancelling Brexit may not be easy even with a Commons majority.

The case which the CJEU will hear tomorrow, and will likely rule on before Christmas, may well hold that the UK cannot unilaterally withdraw A50 notice, and that this can only be done either if accepted by a qualified majority of member states, or if accepted unanimously. Academic opinion is divided about this.

Suppose the court rules that cancelling Brexit requires either majority or unanimous agreement of the member states. Various influential people have said that they think consent is likely to be forthcoming, if sought. But they said it at a time when it wasn't being sought. In reality, it may not be quite so easy. There's a couple of factors at work here:

Firstly, at this point there's very little goodwill left for the UK in Brussels. Both before and after the Brexit referendum the EU went a long way to try to accommodate UK concerns. This was repaid with the unexpected and shocking refernedum outcome, followed by frequently farcical and occasionally insulting posturing from Whitehall in the months and years since. This has not made for a good position from which to be seeking a welcome back and a slaughter of the fatted calf.

But, more to the point, even if HMG changes its mind and seeks to remain (whether with or without the backing of a second referendum) I think it's clear at this stage that the UK will remain bitterly divided on this question. So you'd be taking on a UK that was more discontented as a member than ever before, with a large minority feeling they have been cheated and betrayed and a political establishment, on both sides, clearly dominated by leaders who seem not to be committed to or enthusiastic about the European project. At the very least, a future British government would find it very hard, for domestic reasons, to agree to any reform of, or deepening integration of, the Union. Yet the need for some reform is widely accepted in Europe, even if politically difficult to bring about. Why make make the reform of the Union even more difficult by given the UK a weighty voice in the process?

In short, while the Union is sad to see the UK go, they've got used to the idea and the notion of the UK sticking around after all might not be entirely welcome. If nothing else, EU assent to the withdrawal of A50 notice might well come with conditions designed to ensure that UK exceptionalism cannot be allowed to forestall the development of the Union in whatever way the other Member States might agree. And those conditions might be very hard for Westminster to swallow.

Enzokk · 27-11-2018 10:08AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

My sources at court tell me that HMG had been quietly lobbying Washington over the past few days from some supportive noises about the deal, which might help May sell it to those Brexiters who obsess about a US/UK trade deal.

Good to see Trump burnishing his reputation as a good friend, a rock of co-operation and encouragement.

And yet you will have the UK playing up to their "special" status with the US. They must like the abuse that the US likes to send their way.

Iderown wrote: »

Even if the present deal is accepted the UK government could well sit on its hands for the two years (telling all how wonderful it is) and then end with no trade deals or other necessary internal UK processes. OK - I'm a pessimist.

As others have mentioned before if they do nothing then the backstop kicks in and at least there is no border on the island. However it doesn't solve anything for the UK. What about medicines? What about air travel? If they do nothing they are still committing suicide. Their politicians in charge know the cost of leaving without a deal, hence they have given in to the EU deal. Unless a politician is willing to risk millions of jobs they will accept the EU deal. There is nothing else.

Peregrinus wrote: »

But, more to the point, even if HMG changes its mind and seeks to remain (whether with or without the backing of a second referendum) I think it's clear at this stage that the UK will remain bitterly divided on this question. So you'd be taking on a UK that was more discontented as a member than ever before, with a large minority feeling they have been cheated and betrayed and a political establishment, on both sides, clearly dominated by leaders who seem not to be committed to or enthusiastic about the European project. At the very least, a future British government would find it very hard, for domestic reasons, to agree to any reform of, or deepening integration of, the Union. Yet the need for some reform is widely accepted in Europe, even if politically difficult to bring about. Why make make the reform of the Union even more difficult by given the UK a weighty voice in the process?

In short, while the Union is sad to see the UK go, they've got used to the idea and the notion of the UK sticking around after all might not be entirely welcome. If nothing else, EU assent to the withdrawal of A50 notice might well come with conditions designed to ensure that UK exceptionalism cannot be allowed to forestall the development of the Union in whatever way the other Member States might agree. And those conditions might be very hard for Westminster to swallow.

I agree with your post, but there is more information out there now for people to know that if they stay and the people that still want to leave the EU will have to convince people to vote against their livelihoods to do so, if they were to remain in the EU that is.

I would seriously doubt the next politicians in charge of the campaign to remain if they cannot put forth a convincing argument on the available evidence of the last 2.5 years or so since the referendum. The other side may try to shout project fear again but we know it is not project fear but reality.

Leroy42 · 27-11-2018 10:37AM

No way Brexit is being cancelled. The line of 'will of the people' has been a catchall to allow every MP to basically do whatever they wanted (once it was in support of Brexit) but now that it has been used so much anything that even smells like a reversal will see a massive backlash. The EU has been used as a scapegoat for years, there is no way the MP's are going to want that turned on them.

Look at the backlash against TM plan. People still think they should be doing far better, they still have not faced reality.

Even yesterday, JRM was up in the HoC asking what they were getting for the payment of £39bn and surely they should just not pay it. It is that level of crazy thinking that is driving this and no amount of sanity is going to derail it.

TBF, I think TM actually ended up with a pretty good deal. I think she got a couple of small, but important moves from the EU. But they are still living on the basis that the EU needs them and a deal will be done in a jiffy. I heard a call in on R5live yesterday, and a caller actually said that he wanted TM replaced by Davis as Davis would get the deal done. When the presenter stated that Davis had failed at every level the caller simply said that TM and Ollie Robbins and stabbed him in the back and been working with the EU to keep the UK in from the very start.

With the level of ignorance there is no hope.

Enzokk · 27-11-2018 10:40AM

Seems like their are murmurings of a debate between Corbyn and May about Brexit. I don't know why though, do you really want to listen to May spouting statistics and avoiding the questions while Corbyn fights for, whaterver he wants that is not what his party wants?

Labour to block People's Vote taking part in Brexit TV debate

Labour will not allow a representative of the People’s Vote campaign to take part in any televised Brexit debate involving Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn, with the party instead pushing for a format that would allow the opposition leader to criticise the prime minister’s domestic policies.

May’s team has proposed holding a live primetime TV debate ahead of a crunch parliamentary vote next month on Britain’s exit from the EU, prompting a discussion over the debate format and which broadcaster would host it.

It also led to calls from parties that support a second EU referendum – including the Scottish National party, the Green party and the Liberal Democrats – to have a representative on the panel.

So basically a hour long or 90 minutes of PMQs where Corbyn will talk about the NHS and austerity and May will shout about how her deal is the best thing for the UK. No-one from the ERG to debate going to WTO or anyone asking for a second vote. Great idea by 2 incompetent parties in charge in the UK right now.

As for the case on article 50, here seems to be a thread to follow throughout the day, or however long it will be for the arguments.

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1067335420449570816

And to add to the Trump comments, we have some of those leading the call for Brexit displaying their brilliant knowledge of anything really.

https://twitter.com/SuzanneEvans1/status/1067319728287490048

So when Obama had things to say he had to stay out of it, but because the liar and bully Trump says anything they have to listen? There really needs to be a review in the UK where politicians are held to their words. They are just allowed to do and say what they want right now without any repercussions. I really don't count possible losing their seat as a consequence for letting people go into poverty and other horrible consequences of their policies brought on by lies.

Enzokk · 27-11-2018 10:47AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

No way Brexit is being cancelled. The line of 'will of the people' has been a catchall to allow every MP to basically do whatever they wanted (once it was in support of Brexit) but now that it has been used so much anything that even smells like a reversal will see a massive backlash. The EU has been used as a scapegoat for years, there is no way the MP's are going to want that turned on them.

Look at the backlash against TM plan. People still think they should be doing far better, they still have not faced reality.

Even yesterday, JRM was up in the HoC asking what they were getting for the payment of £39bn and surely they should just not pay it. It is that level of crazy thinking that is driving this and no amount of sanity is going to derail it.

TBF, I think TM actually ended up with a pretty good deal. I think she got a couple of small, but important moves from the EU. But they are still living on the basis that the EU needs them and a deal will be done in a jiffy. I heard a call in on R5live yesterday, and a caller actually said that he wanted TM replaced by Davis as Davis would get the deal done. When the presenter stated that Davis had failed at every level the caller simply said that TM and Ollie Robbins and stabbed him in the back and been working with the EU to keep the UK in from the very start.

With the level of ignorance there is no hope.

People are still being fed lies and that is the problem. You cannot really be angry if someone has the wrong information but that information is given to them by someone that is supposed to have their interests in their actions.

I will not lie and say seeing the UK get their comeuppance with Brexit will not only be a little funny but what they deserve, but decent people will die if the likes of JRM and DD get their way. Maybe the way to let the UK get on the right path again (who decides this path though? At the moment the "right" path is the one where Ireland gets the least amount of damage) is to let them self harm themselves. Its one of the pieces of advice I have seen people say about addicts, you cannot force them to go to rehab as they have to make the decision themselves to change. But there is a risk that the person will kill themselves before they realise they want to change. Do we want to risk the UK going into meltdown?

FreudianSlippers · 27-11-2018 10:48AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Look at the back of a €50 note. There are more French and Spanish colonies there than British.

What?

Peregrinus · 27-11-2018 10:54AM

Financial Times Brussels correspondent live-tweets the CJEU hearing today on whether A50 notice can be revoked:

https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1067325301225648128

(Note that in the CJEU, oral hearings are quite short, and most of what the parties say to the court is said in written submissions, before the hearing.)

lawred2 · 27-11-2018 11:14AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What?

why did you do that to yourself?

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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