Should the British Museum give back artefacts Britain took from other cultures?

Odhinn · 23-11-2018 04:22PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Agreed. The attitude of "we'll look after them better so we'll take them and keep them" seems quite colonial. In history the British empire have applied the same logic to whole nations.

If however you subscribe to the idea of "we know better" than perhaps we should run Britain to save them from the self inflicted wound that is Brexit.

The notion of imperialism as 'caretaker' is an attempt to sugar coat the reality of conquest and exploitation, trying to show it as some humanitarian expedition.

BrokenArrows · 23-11-2018 04:52PM

While i do agree that it sucks for the original nation i dont agree that something taken so long ago should be returned.

If every museum had to return all things taken from other countries it would make museums pretty ****.

Especially in london since all the museums are free so they dont really earn any money to actually purchase these items.

steddyeddy · 23-11-2018 05:09PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The British Museum are quite arrogant about it -

It is the first time that the British Museum, which holds cultural treasures from around the globe, has agreed to hold talks about the statue. But on Tuesday the museum was talking only of a loan, not the return, on the artefact.

“The museum is one of the world’s leading lenders and the trustees will always consider loan requests subject to usual conditions,” a spokeswoman said.

They took someone else’s property, claimed it as their own, and now want to “lend” their property back to it’s owners? Of course they should give it back. If you take something from someone, that doesn’t make it yours, no matter how well you take care of it and whether or not you think they won’t. It’s not your property, it’s theirs. What’s the point in property which is of significance to its owners being stored in a museum where it is of no significance to the people who took it? That’s literally stealing and being a dog in a manger about it.

I think the nation should take the loan and not return the statue. It's not like Britain will be a world power post Brexit.

James Brown · 23-11-2018 05:14PM

Rhyme wrote: »

If the countries that want their artefacts returned can keep them in as good a condition as Britain has been keeping them, then of course. If they would be returned only to go to shit, then no.

#controversial

Who's to judge? Is Britain to play mammy with the stolen goods?

Rhyme · 23-11-2018 05:56PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Who's to judge? Is Britain to play mammy with the stolen goods?

Nothing to do with Britain, all to do with facilities and personnel.

Does the country that wishes their artefacts returned to them have adequate storage and display facilities to aid in the long-term survival of the artefacts, climate control, clean rooms, dry and safe storage. These typically are custom built. Also sufficient technological support to aid the above. Do they have appropriate staff such as curators, restoration technicians, historians, archaeologists etc.

If country A handed over artefacts to country B for them to put things in safe long-term storage while the facilities are created for their restoration and display then that's fine. Even if it takes years. If country B was just going to pop them into the town hall for any Joe Soap to paw them, I'd say hold on to them for the time being.

I'd include Ireland as a potential 'country B' here. Our National History Museum has had a leaky roof for the past 20 years, I'm surprised that some things haven't rotted away already in there. If the UK or the US (for example) had some historical documents or artefacts belonging to us and we intended to pop them in the Natural History Museum, I'd say they can keep those things until we sort ourselves out.

James Brown · 23-11-2018 06:00PM

Rhyme wrote: »

Nothing to do with Britain, all to do with facilities and personnel.

Does the country that wishes their artefacts returned to them have adequate storage and display facilities to aid in the long-term survival of the artefacts, climate control, clean rooms, dry and safe storage. These typically are custom built. Also sufficient technological support to aid the above. Do they have appropriate staff such as curators, restoration technicians, historians, archaeologists etc.

If country A handed over artefacts to country B for them to put things in safe long-term storage while the facilities are created for their restoration and display then that's fine. Even if it takes years. If country B was just going to pop them into the town hall for any Joe Soap to paw them, I'd say hold on to them for the time being.

I'd include Ireland as a potential 'country B' here. Our National History Museum has had a leaky roof for the past 20 years, I'm surprised that some things haven't rotted away already in there. If the UK or the US (for example) had some historical documents or artefacts belonging to us and we intended to pop them in the Natural History Museum, I'd say they can keep those things until we sort ourselves out.

What's your address? I'm coming over with a van to take some of your things. You can have them back at a time of my choosing, if ever and if I am satisfied you can look after and respect them in a manner of my choosing. Fair enough?

The J Stands for Jay · 23-11-2018 06:05PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Agreed. The attitude of "we'll look after them better so we'll take them and keep them" seems quite colonial. In history the British empire have applied the same logic to whole nations.

If however you subscribe to the idea of "we know better" than perhaps we should run Britain to save them from the self inflicted wound that is Brexit.

Haven't they damaged loads of their artifacts. O vaguely recall reading that they 'cleaned' the Elgin marbles with a wire brush...

And why do we have to call it by such a disparaging name? I don't even know the real name.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 23-11-2018 07:16PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

How far back do you go? Are the Italians going to apologize for the Romans? People these days seem to try and view history through a modern mindset.

Maybe, if Italians were going around telling everyone how proud they were of their glorious empire and getting pissy when anyone mentioned the negative side.

Plenty of people criticised the British Empire at the time. It didn't fall because people improved morally, it fell because they couldn't hang on to it much longer.

RobertKK · 23-11-2018 08:16PM

The British Museum has been handling stolen goods for a very long time.

They need to do the right thing and return the items back to the rightful owners.

The Rape of Lucretia · 23-11-2018 08:35PM

No. Britain did so much to collect and preserve the world's heritage, often in countries who had done nothing to look after them before hand or had even destroyed them, the certainly deserve to keep them safely for posterity. It is a small thanks from the rest of the world, and suits so many to have them conveniently collected and so finely displayed and accessible to so many, in London.

RobertKK · 24-11-2018 12:28AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

No. Britain did so much to collect and preserve the world's heritage, often in countries who had done nothing to look after them before hand or had even destroyed them, the certainly deserve to keep them safely for posterity. It is a small thanks from the rest of the world, and suits so many to have them conveniently collected and so finely displayed and accessible to so many, in London.

They did not 'collect' them to preserve them, they stole from other countries.

London could easily get nuked in a nuclear war, I doubt Easter Island would be getting nuked.
The statue would be safer back where it belongs.

Míshásta · 24-11-2018 12:33AM

I suppose our own National Museum should return its large Egyptian collection as well.

"Among the most important objects exhibited are the gilt and painted cartonnage case of the mummy Tentdinebu dated to the 22nd Dynasty c. 945 - 716 BC; the mummy portraits of a woman and a young boy from Hawara dated to the first/second Century AD; and a model of a wooden boat dated to the early 12th Dynasty c. 1900 BC. There is also a number of important stelae, tomb furniture, offering tables, jewellery and household equipment.

The National Museum’s Egyptian collection comprises about three thousand objects, the majority acquired from excavations carried out in Egypt between the 1890s and the 1920s and ranging in date from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages."

There wouldn't be much left in western museums if this policy was adhered to.

prinzeugen · 24-11-2018 12:45AM

Is it just Britain OP or are you going after the Portuguese, Spanish, French, Dutch etc also.

Should they give up the stuff they collected or is this just another anti-British rant thread??

mammajamma · 24-11-2018 12:48AM

I was in cairo a few years ago, the museum is in bits, falling apart. The idea that they should be allowed house more priceless artifacts is just another empty-headed feel-good mission.

An ancient relative of mine was a pirate. So by this ill logic, I should give half my stuff to some random bloke in France because it might be ill-gained and therefore gave me advantages in life that the French blokes ancient ancestors didn't have.

Its spurious reasoning, with no thought of consequence.

As much as Ireland suffered at the hands of the empire, we have also received massive advantages due to proximity. Maybe Ireland should calculate a number in ill-gained wealth and give it to some other country. Makes sense.

Nope.

prinzeugen · 24-11-2018 12:51AM

super_furry wrote: »

That would mean that they might have to face up to their history and legacy of going around the world, invading countries, slaughtering innocents and stealing anything of value.

They still won’t acknowledge that the ‘glorious’ empire they keep barking back to was built on the back of slavery, they’re not going to give back what they stole.

The French were 100 times worse than Britain ever was.

mammajamma · 24-11-2018 12:53AM

RobertKK wrote: »

They did not 'collect' them to preserve them, they stole from other countries.

London could easily get nuked in a nuclear war, I doubt Easter Island would be getting nuked.
The statue would be safer back where it belongs.

They did what they did to take advantage. The idea that their modern relatives should hand it all back is crazy stuff.

Its not dissimilar to an extended logic, that because you were born in Ireland and had massive advantages (and took them) versus some guy in Somalia, maybe you should personally contact a guy in Somalia and arrange to share the fruits of your advantages.

That's not how life works, worked, or ever will work. Not to mention that a statue sent back to some island in the middle of nowhere practically guarantees destruction.

mammajamma · 24-11-2018 12:58AM

Míshásta wrote: »

I suppose our own National Museum should return its large Egyptian collection as well.

"Among the most important objects exhibited are the gilt and painted cartonnage case of the mummy Tentdinebu dated to the 22nd Dynasty c. 945 - 716 BC; the mummy portraits of a woman and a young boy from Hawara dated to the first/second Century AD; and a model of a wooden boat dated to the early 12th Dynasty c. 1900 BC. There is also a number of important stelae, tomb furniture, offering tables, jewellery and household equipment.

The National Museum’s Egyptian collection comprises about three thousand objects, the majority acquired from excavations carried out in Egypt between the 1890s and the 1920s and ranging in date from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages."

There wouldn't be much left in western museums if this policy was adhered to.

There are scores of thieves, in the employ of Chinese millionaires, actively stealing from European museums to return to china (read: hands of millionaires to be displayed in their private collections).

Its a dog eat dog world, to the winner go the spoils. Its amazing that crying about things seems to get so much traction.

Harry Palmr · 24-11-2018 12:59AM

Sure you've only got to look at Giza, it used to be in the desert now it's inside a ring road and subject to the air pollution of 20+ milion people driving shoddy old diesels.

mammajamma · 24-11-2018 01:04AM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Sure you've only got to look at Giza, it used to be in the desert now it's inside a ring road and subject to the air pollution of 20+ milion people driving shoddy old diesels.

And the state of a lot of the pyramids too. Similar to the Taj Mahal, all pictures are taken at very particular angles.

One pyramid in particular looks stunning just outside Cairo. What you don't see in the pictures is the rubbish dump around it.

24-11-2018 05:27AM

The museum burning down in Brazil taints my view on this. Typically, I'd say yes, but lack of care and theft or corruption could lead to a lot of artifacts disappearing.

24-11-2018 08:38AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

The French were 100 times worse than Britain ever was.

I suppose we'll have an academic source to support this standard British nationalist "We were the good empire" line?

Academic sources? Pigs will fly.

24-11-2018 08:43AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Is it just Britain OP or are you going after the Portuguese, Spanish, French, Dutch etc also.

Should they give up the stuff they collected or is this just another anti-British rant thread??

Hopefully it's just the Brits because the hilarity level of every thread consistently hits the roof once the poppy-pushing, statue-erecting, remember-our-dead-forget-everybody-else's-dead, Empire-glorifying, warmongering, Brexit-supporting lulas feel the greatness of Britain is being undermined (which is increasingly always these days). Brexit is exposing a veritable psychosis in the English.

Continue.

timthumbni · 24-11-2018 11:12AM

Seems an excuse for another anti British rant for some especially that guy, you know the one, his wife must have ran off with a British soldier, who jumps endlessly from thread to thread showing up very clearly his own veritable psychosis.

I would have thought that if museums around the world have not returned actual human remains then they hardly need to return a statue. The Ulster museum has at least 1 mummy and I’ve always felt slightly sad when I see it.

klaaaz · 24-11-2018 12:27PM

Rhyme wrote: »

Nothing to do with Britain, all to do with facilities and personnel.

I think an Easter Island statue that has survived the weather elements for hundreds of years should have the criteria to overcome your bias and be returned from the thieves hands back to it's rightful owners

namloc1980 · 24-11-2018 01:11PM

klaaaz wrote: »

I think an Easter Island statue that has survived the weather elements for hundreds of years should have the criteria to overcome your bias and be returned from the thieves hands back to it's rightful owners

Rightful owners? The island is part of Chile having been annexed in the late 19th century. Who are the rightful "owners"?

Folkstonian · 24-11-2018 01:48PM

I love the british museum. I remember being taken as a child and being absolutely bowled over by the size, age and incredible craftsmanship of statues and monuments on display

Any visit to the British museum is an invaluable learning experience for young people and given that it has five or six million guests each year, I think it’s sparking a lifelong love and sense of intrigue in millions of young minds, and it would be a terrible pity and to the detriment of future generations if items in their collection were slowly lost

Plus the argument that in the British museum these things are well cared for, expertly maintained and safe for future generations does hold a fair bit of merit for me in an increasingly unstable and volatile world. These are humanity’s treasures, and the history of all of us, and it’s incumbent on the whole world to protect that history

And further to that, and judging by some of the responses already this won’t go down well, but the Rosetta Stone, or Cleopatra’s needle, or a Moai from Easter island, the reality is that they are in Britain, France or Europe because they became a part of our European colonial history.
They tell the tales of expedition to unknown parts of the world, of colonies far away from home, of how society viewed itself and the world in the Victorian era etc, and that too deserves to be remembered and preserved

Folkstonian · 24-11-2018 01:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Hopefully it's just the Brits because the hilarity level of every thread consistently hits the roof once the poppy-pushing, statue-erecting, remember-our-dead-forget-everybody-else's-dead, Empire-glorifying, warmongering, Brexit-supporting lulas feel the greatness of Britain is being undermined (which is increasingly always these days). Brexit is exposing a veritable psychosis in the English.

Continue.

I’m fairly sure I’m the only English person who posts in these threads. It doesn’t bother me that you have clearly very different views on some issues.

24-11-2018 01:52PM

seamus wrote: »

As said above, the modern inhabitants of the island have no more a spiritual or cultural connection with these items than a modern Italian does with the Romans who built the Colosseum.

OH!! Careful now!

biko · 24-11-2018 01:56PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It’s a great museum but it really is The Museum if Robbing C*nts.

Every interesting museum is the same, imported artefacts from around the world.
I was recently in the Museum of Natural History in New York, lots of stolen stuff to see - recommended.

prinzeugen · 25-11-2018 02:22AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I suppose we'll have an academic source to support this standard British nationalist "We were the good empire" line?

Academic sources? Pigs will fly.

Who intercepted the French slave boats in the Caribbean and set the slaves free? The Royal Navy. Try reading a real history book or have a wee Google for further examples.

I have better things to do with my time than google **** for you.

The fact remains that most ex British territories are civilised and developed.

Look at South America and the former French colonies. They are still hacking the feck out each other and are 30 years or more behind the rest of the world.

Should the British Museum give back artefacts Britain took from other cultures?

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