Extension of Abortion Services To Northern Ireland

Amirani · 15-11-2018 06:24PM

gctest50 wrote: »

ah - deflect deflect deflect

I said i dont like the way de peeeeples taxes go towards feeding child murderers, see here

Your analogy is way out. The State has a responsibility for its citizens/residents, whether that be healthcare or incarceration (or execution if the constitution and law changed to meet your wish).

The State doesn't have the same responsibility to citizens and residents of other nations. Directly funding healthcare costs of non-Irish UK residents is not the same as funding incarceration costs of Irish citizens in Ireland.

gctest50 · 15-11-2018 06:28PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So is it fair to assume you are pro death penalty and .....

Can't read ?

gctest50 wrote: »

......

Capital punishment is a bad idea because of false imprisonment

SafeSurfer wrote: »

and pro abortion?

I'm Pro- Choice

all that sounds like stuff out of a new Anti-Choice Handbook

I suppose they'd have lots of .pdffiles

end of the road · 15-11-2018 06:35PM

gctest50 wrote: »

ah - deflect deflect deflect

I said i dont like the way de peeeeples taxes go towards feeding child murderers, see here :

Capital punishment is a bad idea because of false imprisonment

no deflection. i'm well aware of what you said hence i responded to it.

Calhoun · 15-11-2018 06:36PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Minister for Health Simon Harris wants to extend free abortion services provided in the Republic of Ireland to those living in the north.
At a time of trolley crisis, record waiting lists and pressure throughout the health system is this an altruistic gesture to residents of another jurisdiction or cynical political maneuvering?

When it was not possible in ireland, hospitals in Liverpool ect looked after the women of Ireland and from what I heard engaged as much as they could with services here to keep it smooth.

I think this is the right thing to do and Ireland and it's people should be proud to do it. To do otherwise would be very selfish.

Amirani · 15-11-2018 06:45PM

Calhoun wrote: »

When it was not possible in ireland, hospitals in Liverpool ect looked after the women of Ireland and from what I heard engaged as much as they could with services here to keep it smooth.

I think this is the right thing to do and Ireland and it's people should be proud to do it. To do otherwise would be very selfish.

This was paid for by the people who went over to get the abortion though. It was not freely provided by the hospitals in Liverpool. British taxpayers did not pay for Irish women to get abortions. Northern Irish women have been able to avail of free abortions in Britain while Irish women had to pay, there was no reciprocity.

I think the right thing for Ireland to do is to spend its health budget on providing the best healthcare possible for people in Ireland. If non-Irish people want to avail of abortion here, they should pay the costs associated.

eviltwin · 15-11-2018 06:48PM

Amirani wrote: »

This was paid for by the people who went over to get the abortion though. It was not freely provided by the hospitals in Liverpool. British taxpayers did not pay for Irish women to get abortions.

I think the right thing for Ireland to do is to spend its health budget on providing the best healthcare possible for people in Ireland. If non-Irish people want to avail of abortion here, they should pay the costs associated.

It was heavily subsidised. Women travelling for abortions to the UK for abortion in a private clinic for a special rate.

kneemos · 15-11-2018 06:49PM

Calhoun wrote: »

When it was not possible in ireland, hospitals in Liverpool ect looked after the women of Ireland and from what I heard engaged as much as they could with services here to keep it smooth.

I think this is the right thing to do and Ireland and it's people should be proud to do it. To do otherwise would be very selfish.

Agreed. Great gesture.

Not sure why it should be free though,for Irish or N Irish.

Dalomanakora · 15-11-2018 06:52PM

kneemos wrote: »

Agreed. Great gesture.

Not sure why it should be free though,for Irish or N Irish.

Because for Irish people, if they can't afford an abortion, guess who's going to pay for the kiddo they sure as hell can't afford?

The government. The taxpayers.

Calhoun · 15-11-2018 06:53PM

Ah I didn't know that there was a charge I thought it was only the flight costs ect.

SafeSurfer · 15-11-2018 06:55PM

Calhoun wrote: »

When it was not possible in ireland, hospitals in Liverpool ect looked after the women of Ireland and from what I heard engaged as much as they could with services here to keep it smooth.

I think this is the right thing to do and Ireland and it's people should be proud to do it. To do otherwise would be very selfish.

Northern Irish residents can already access free abortion services in the UK and also have their transport costs to the UK paid for.

The UK government never paid for Irish citizens abortions or paid for their travel costs to the UK.

Amirani · 15-11-2018 06:57PM

eviltwin wrote: »

It was heavily subsidised. Women travelling for abortions to the UK for abortion in a private clinic for a special rate.

We should try to offer affordable (and perhaps subsidised) abortion care to Northern-Irish women here, particularly those of limited means. Happy to have it free for Irish residents though.

end of the road · 15-11-2018 07:15PM

Calhoun wrote: »

When it was not possible in ireland, hospitals in Liverpool ect looked after the women of Ireland and from what I heard engaged as much as they could with services here to keep it smooth.

IMO it's a hospital's job and duty to look after patients that visit it, whether from the country or not. britain allows the use of facilities to paying patients from abroad and i'd imagine we do as well. i believe therefore that we don't owe the uk anything.

Calhoun wrote: »

I think this is the right thing to do and Ireland and it's people should be proud to do it. To do otherwise would be very selfish.

i don't agree. as much as i see northern ireland's people as irish, they are currently under uk rule, as much as i dislike it. therefore i don't believe we have any obligation to fund them using our facilities and services whatever they may be until such time as they return to irish rule. fair is fair.

astrofool · 15-11-2018 08:04PM

Bit of sand in the eye of the DUP which is great.

And laughable at people arguing the costs to the state of an abortion vs. not having an abortion.

amcalester · 15-11-2018 08:50PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

And we could eliminate the childrens scoliosis waiting list by building a new theatre in Crumlin for €2 to €3, million, potentially a fraction of the cost of providing free abortion services to non citizens who can avail of free services under their own health care system for little more than the price of a train ticket to Dublin.

You’re not too good at fractions, at €2 to €3m for the scoliosis unit this is multiples of the cost of providing abortions to NI residents.

But let’s be honest it’s not about the cost for you, you just don’t women having access to abortions at all. You’re hiding behind the financials as a way of making it harder for NI women to access abortion services.

Ronaldinho · 15-11-2018 09:01PM

astrofool wrote: »

And laughable at people arguing the costs to the state of an abortion vs. not having an abortion.

It's not all about the direct costs.

How does the fact that it's free affect peoples' attitudes to unprotected sex and especially unprotected casual sex? If Pascal's got you covered, so to speak, then maybe we see a lot more unnecessary abortions because people who otherwise would have used contraception can't be arsed, which may also put people at greater risks of contracting an STD.

eviltwin · 15-11-2018 09:08PM

Ronaldinho wrote: »

It's not all about the direct costs.

How does the fact that it's free affect peoples' attitudes to unprotected sex and especially unprotected casual sex? If Pascal's got you covered, so to speak, then maybe we see a lot more unnecessary abortions because people who otherwise would have used contraception can't be arsed, which may also put people at greater risks of contracting an STD.

No woman in her right mind would see abortion as an alternative to contraception. It's physically gruelling, painful and not a pleasant experience to have.

n97 mini · 15-11-2018 09:30PM

Ronaldinho wrote: »

I don't get why the procedure is to be made free for all. Why not limited to medical card holders, for free?

I don't get why healthcare isn't free for all. Why limit it to medical card holders?

Better again, just introduce a €5 GP visit fee to all to prevent abuses.

Charles Babbage · 15-11-2018 09:34PM

Ronaldinho wrote: »

I don't get why the procedure is to be made free for all. Why not limited to medical card holders, for free?

Because for Harris, cancer patients should pay but aborting people should be made as easy as possible. After all it is more important to be rid of your children than cancer.

Galwayguy35 · 15-11-2018 09:41PM

It's a different jurisdiction, let the politicians sort out their own mess on that side of the border.

Harris should concentrate on sorting out the problems in the health service here.

SafeSurfer · 15-11-2018 09:47PM

amcalester wrote: »

You’re not too good at fractions, at €2 to €3m for the scoliosis unit this is multiples of the cost of providing abortions to NI residents.

But let’s be honest it’s not about the cost for you, you just don’t women having access to abortions at all. You’re hiding behind the financials as a way of making it harder for NI women to access abortion services.

You will note but omit to quote my use of the word potentially. You also only look at the cost of abortion provision for one year whereas of course the cost is ongoing and cumulative.

You accuse me of just highlighting the financial implications of the provision of abortion services to non residents to make abortion services more difficult for women from Northern Ireland to access.
It is legitimate to point out that the extension of provision of abortion services to Northern Ireland and its funding by the Irish taxpayer was never a part of the abortion referendum debate. If it was, concerns could have been raised at the time.
Minister Harris is unilaterally and without a mandate from the electorate extending abortion services to a jurisdiction for which he has no mandate at all.
To highlight this isn’t to be pro choice or anti choice it is simply a statement of fact.

Ronaldinho · 15-11-2018 09:55PM

eviltwin wrote: »

No woman in her right mind would see abortion as an alternative to contraception. It's physically gruelling, painful and not a pleasant experience to have.

That's fair. But I wonder would adolescents get that right now. And in the case of a drunken hook-up - I can't help thinking that a couple is going to be more inclined to 'chance it' since the procedure is free.

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't get why healthcare isn't free for all. Why limit it to medical card holders?

Because there's a finite amount of resources at the Govt's disposal (that could & should be spent a lot more effectively but that's for another thread).

Those that can pay, should pay.

Calhoun · 15-11-2018 09:57PM

eviltwin wrote: »

It was heavily subsidised. Women travelling for abortions to the UK for abortion in a private clinic for a special rate.

This was the impression i got also, from listening to some of the stories from the people running the service over there during the referendum it seemed like it was more than just a money spinning opportunity.

You got a real sense that they cared for the welfare of these women and they were at the end of their tether in being able to support them.

amcalester · 15-11-2018 09:59PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You will note but omit to quote my use of the word potentially. You also only look at the cost of abortion provision for one year whereas of course the cost is ongoing and cumulative.

You accuse me of just highlighting the financial implications of the provision of abortion services to non residents to make abortion services more difficult for women from Northern Ireland to access.
It is legitimate to point out that the extension of provision of abortion services to Northern Ireland and its funding by the Irish taxpayer was never a part of the abortion referendum debate. If it was, concerns could have been raised at the time.
Minister Harris is unilaterally and without a mandate from the electorate extending abortion services to a jurisdiction for which he has no mandate at all.
To highlight this isn’t to be pro choice or anti choice it is simply a statement of fact.

I quoted your entire post, nothing was omitted.

Has Harris actually said it will be free to NI residents?

BBC are reporting that they’ll have to pay while RTÉ makes no mention of who pays, patient or taxpayer.

So, would you support these women being treated if they pay for it?

eviltwin · 15-11-2018 10:00PM

Ronaldinho wrote: »

That's fair. But I wonder would adolescents get that right now. And in the case of a drunken hook-up - I can't help thinking that a couple is going to be more inclined to 'chance it' since the procedure is free.

Possibly but after one it might make them rethink. It's really no alternative to using contraception. Mind you, one would hope that access to contraception, especially for teenagers, would become easier and more affordable too.

SafeSurfer · 15-11-2018 10:00PM

eviltwin wrote: »

No woman in her right mind would see abortion as an alternative to contraception. It's physically gruelling, painful and not a pleasant experience to have.

I don’t want to get into the whole abortion debate again but 40% of UK abortions are to women who have had more than one abortion with 50 women each having had 8 abortions in 2015.

So it would seem that having had an experience of abortion which is undoubtedly traumatic and unpleasant and painful many women repeat the experience multiple times. There may be all sorts of reasons for this which are beyond their control of course and no contraception is always 100% effective.

SafeSurfer · 15-11-2018 10:04PM

amcalester wrote: »

I quoted your entire post, nothing was omitted.

Has Harris actually said it will be free to NI residents?

BBC are reporting that they’ll have to pay while RTÉ makes no mention of who pays, patient or taxpayer.

So, would you support these women being treated if they pay for it?

Absolutely. I don’t believe that abortion should be offered for free to residents of another jurisdiction simply because it is abortion.

kneemos · 15-11-2018 10:04PM

Apparently he wants it free to prevent private abortion clinics.
When he says free does he mean part of general medical services,all healthcare is free bar doctor and hospital fees,and prescriptions of course.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057880548/55/#post108632640

Calhoun · 15-11-2018 10:52PM

kneemos wrote: »

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057880548/55/#post108632640

Lol a link to the weather forum?

astrofool · 15-11-2018 11:06PM

Ronaldinho wrote: »

It's not all about the direct costs.

How does the fact that it's free affect peoples' attitudes to unprotected sex and especially unprotected casual sex? If Pascal's got you covered, so to speak, then maybe we see a lot more unnecessary abortions because people who otherwise would have used contraception can't be arsed, which may also put people at greater risks of contracting an STD.

That's the response I expected, "women can't be trusted so will get abortions if they're free rather than use contraception, so we should charge them money to make them own up to their decision, and if they can't pay it, having a baby would be good punishment for them".

I'm disappointed you didn't want to go down the route of what it costs to raise a child for the state vs. having an abortion (given those most likely to use those services are also most likely to be reliant on the state for welfare).

n97 mini · 15-11-2018 11:23PM

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Because there's a finite amount of resources at the Govt's disposal (that could & should be spent a lot more effectively but that's for another thread).

Those that can pay, should pay.

Those that "can pay" are those earning above a particular threshold. It's arbitrary. Doesn't mean they can actually pay. Many don't, as they've trouble coming up with €60 for a GP visit, and instead hope the problem will go away. Some will end up seriously ill in the health system, costing the state multiples of what low-cost primary care would cost.

Extension of Abortion Services To Northern Ireland

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