Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

joe40 · 08-11-2018 10:21AM

Is the idea of the "moderate" pragmatic republican party in the US now well and truly dead.

During Trumps Nomination process the narrative was that the outlandish, openly racist and divisive tone would appeal to a section of the electorate. But once elected the party would ensure he acted in a statesmanlike manner. His more erratic behaviour would be curtailed.

The opposite seems to have happened, it is Trump that has moulded the party to his image. For me this election has magnified this transition. There may be more democrats to curb his influence in the House, but any hope of moderate voices coming from within the Republican party has disappeared. That is the most disappointing aspect for me.

The idea that Fox news is a news channel, just sums this up. They don't even try any more.

Maybe people with a more in depth knowledge of US politics would have a different view, but that is how it appears to me.

Captain Obvious · 08-11-2018 10:23AM

Has that migrant caravan vanished?

Captain Obvious · 08-11-2018 10:26AM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Another mass shooting. This time in California

I've seen a few posts and tweets from Republican supporters commenting on how Republicans aren't acting violently like the dems did after their loss. I'd say there is a lot of tweet scrubbing going on for fear this shooter is political.

Eric Cartman · 08-11-2018 10:27AM

8-10 wrote: »

So people who have committed 1 felony and serve their time should be allowed to vote

People who commit 2 felonies and serve their time should be allowed to vote

People who commit a third lose that right?

Thats it

mcmoustache · 08-11-2018 10:33AM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Has that migrant caravan vanished?

Basically, yeah. It served its purpose. Expect another in two years time.

pixelburp · 08-11-2018 10:35AM

To be clear, in Florida, it was possible to get ones voting right back but the process was both arduous, and utterly arbitrary - with candidates often receiving no feedback or indication as to why they were denied. One particular case I read about was of a near-OAP basically being dismissed, having lived an honest & upstanding life, save a minor felony in his youth. Murder and sexual assault felons will still be denied the vote. That a minor offence such as possession of weed might get you struck off for life is farcical, and by no means a fair application of the law.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/6/18052374/florida-amendment-4-felon-voting-rights-results

In Florida, there was a process in place for getting voting rights restored. But the process, set up by Gov. Rick Scott (R), was very arduous. It required people to wait as long as seven years to apply, and the application review itself could take several additional years. Even after someone applied, restoration of voting rights was far from guaranteed: According to the Florida Commission on Offender Review, only 3,005 of more than 30,000 applicants had their voting rights restored through the system since Scott implemented it.

Captain Obvious · 08-11-2018 10:37AM

pixelburp wrote: »

To be clear, in Florida, it was possible to get ones voting right back but the process was both arduous, and utterly arbitrary - with candidates often receiving no feedback or indication as to why they were denied. One particular case I read about was of a near-OAP basically being dismissed, having lived an honest & upstanding life, save a minor felony in his youth. Murder and sexual assault felons will still be denied the vote. That a minor offence such as possession of weed might get you struck off for life is farcical, and by no means a fair application of the law.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/6/18052374/florida-amendment-4-felon-voting-rights-results

John Oliver did a good piece on it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpPyLcQ2vdI

Podge_irl · 08-11-2018 10:40AM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Has that migrant caravan vanished?

Probably only a mere 980 miles away now rather than 1,000.

Hurrache · 08-11-2018 10:42AM

Apparently the footage the Whitehouse is using to justify Acosta's suspension because of the alleged assault on the intern has been doctored, a couple of videos out there comparing the two, this guy shadows the two over each other
https://twitter.com/rafaelshimunov/status/1060450557817708544

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jim-acosta-trump-cnn-press-conference-pass-white-house-infowars-sarah-sanders-a8623441.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1541671006

The White House has shared footage posted by an editor of a conspiracy theory website showing Jim Acosta making contact with a Trump aide, in a bid to justify its suspension of the CNN reporter’s press pass.....
.....
The video, which has no audio and is of notably low quality, shows the moment Mr Acosta’s hand blocks the aide’s attempts to grab the microphone. It repeats the moment six times, each time zooming further into the brief moment of contact.

Ms Sanders' tweet came exactly two hours after the same video was shared by Paul Joseph Watson, editor-at-large of InfoWars, a far-right conspiracy theory website fronted by Trump-supporter Alex Jones.

Leroy42 · 08-11-2018 10:43AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats it

Right, so you are not against felons having the right to vote then.

OK, thats a change but at least we are getting somewhere.

So it is only incarcerations that count or a conviction? Any crime? Should ban be life time?

Should be they stopped from holding public office (like GWB for example).

Does it cover state and federal. Should one state be allowed to stop a felon convicted in another state from voting? What if the laws are different between states?

I wonder where in the constitution does it state that felons should lose the right to vote?

demfad · 08-11-2018 10:53AM

The firing of Sessions and replacement by Whitaker represents to me a Constitutional crises in the US.

It seems the mechanisms for this move have been in place for many months:

Whitaker stated very publicly (last year) what an AG should do to curb the Mueller investigation. After these public pronouncements he was drafted into Sessions team.

The move was made primarily (IMO) to avoid the imminent indictment of Donald Trump Jr.

That means that Whitaker's loyalty is already guaranteed and his instruction will be that Don Jr is not indicted (or his indictment remains sealed)

The question may be can could Whitaker order Mueller to Leave Jrs indictment unsealed?

This move means that Trump will be found guilty of Obstruction of Justice unless he can close all of this down.

Only the most extreme options are open to him to achieve that. To try and succeed in this strategy he will need a massive distraction. This is red alert time.

In recent days, according to three sources, Don Jr. has been telling friends he is worried about being indicted as early as this week. One person close to Don Jr. speculated that Mueller could indict him for making false statements to Congress and the F.B.I. about whether he had told his father about the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting with Russians to gather “dirt” on Hillary Clinton. This source had heard that the case could revolve around Trump’s former deputy campaign chairman, Rick Gates, who’s cooperating with Mueller and who was deeply involved in the campaign at the time of the meeting. Trump, this person continued, is “very upset” about the risks Don Jr. faces. “The president is very depressed,” this person said. (“Don never said any such thing, and there is absolutely no truth to these rumors,” said Don Jr.’s lawyer, Alan Futerfas.)
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/11/post-midterms-trump-is-in-a-bad-mood

mcmoustache · 08-11-2018 11:01AM

Hurrache wrote: »

Apparently the footage the Whitehouse is using to justify Acosta's suspension because of the alleged assault on the intern has been doctored, a couple of videos out there comparing the two, this guy shadows the two over each other
https://twitter.com/rafaelshimunov/status/1060450557817708544

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jim-acosta-trump-cnn-press-conference-pass-white-house-infowars-sarah-sanders-a8623441.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1541671006

You should have waited before posting that. It's more fun to sit on it and wait for one of Trump's supporters to post it and then respond.

prawnsambo · 08-11-2018 11:03AM

demfad wrote: »

The firing of Sessions and replacement by Whitaker represents to me a Constitutional crises in the US.

It seems the mechanisms for this move have been in place for many months:

Whitaker stated very publicly (last year) what an AG should do to curb the Mueller investigation. After these public pronouncements he was drafted into Sessions team.

The move was made primarily (IMO) to avoid the imminent indictment of Donald Trump Jr.

That means that Whitaker's loyalty is already guaranteed and his instruction will be that Don Jr is not indicted.

The question may be can could Whitaker order Mueller to Leave Jrs indictment unsealed?

This move means that Trump will be found guilty of Obstruction of Justice unless he can close all of this down.

Only the most extreme options are open to him to achieve that. To try and succeed in this strategy he will need a massive distraction. This is red alert time.

This is interesting. So he supported everyone down the line against Trump and then put himself in the shop window to attract Trump. You could call it catfishing or just a guy looking to advance his career by any means necessary.

Quin_Dub · 08-11-2018 11:14AM

demfad wrote: »

The firing of Sessions and replacement by Whitaker represents to me a Constitutional crises in the US.

It seems the mechanisms for this move have been in place for many months:

Whitaker stated very publicly (last year) what an AG should do to curb the Mueller investigation. After these public pronouncements he was drafted into Sessions team.

The move was made primarily (IMO) to avoid the imminent indictment of Donald Trump Jr.

That means that Whitaker's loyalty is already guaranteed and his instruction will be that Don Jr is not indicted.

The question may be can could Whitaker order Mueller to Leave Jrs indictment unsealed?

This move means that Trump will be found guilty of Obstruction of Justice unless he can close all of this down.

Only the most extreme options are open to him to achieve that. To try and succeed in this strategy he will need a massive distraction. This is red alert time.

Even Fox News thinks the appointment of Whittaker is suspect

President Donald Trump’s appointment of Matthew Whitaker as Acting Attorney General may be illegal, Andrew Napolitano, senior judicial analyst for Fox News, said on Wednesday.

“Under the law, the person running the Department of Justice must have been approved by the United States Senate for some previous position. Even on an interim post,” Napolitano told Fox News’ Dana Perino.

Former Attorney General Jeff Sessions was dismissed on Wednesday and Napolitano said his interim replacement should have been Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.

While Whitaker was confirmed by the Senate in 2004 when he was appointed U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Iowa, Napolitano said that he was nevertheless ineligible to serve in his current post as the confirmation was not “for a leadership position in the Justice Department.”

“Who has been confirmed and who’s next in line? Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein,” Napolitano added.

Pelvis · 08-11-2018 11:17AM

Do we remember this moment, of Romney with tail firmly between legs?

Romney is now back in politics as the Iowa Senator. Could he come back to bite Trump in the arse?

https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1060296443611598848

Penn · 08-11-2018 11:21AM

Pelvis wrote: »

Romney is now back in politics as the Iowa Senator. Could he come back to bite Trump in the arse?

https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1060296443611598848

Like most of the Republicans have been doing, I imagine they'll all say similar, but when Trump does interfere they'll do nothing to stop him. Romney is no different than the rest of them.

08-11-2018 11:31AM

Pelvis wrote: »

Do we remember this moment, of Romney with tail firmly between legs?

Romney is now back in politics as the Iowa Senator. Could he come back to bite Trump in the arse?

https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1060296443611598848

Hate to be a pedant but it's Utah not Iowa.

demfad · 08-11-2018 11:51AM

Penn wrote: »

Like most of the Republicans have been doing, I imagine they'll all say similar, but when Trump does interfere they'll do nothing to stop him. Romney is no different than the rest of them.

This time however the interference may involve appointing someone who directs the Special Counsel not to unseal an indictment on the presidents son. That is just for starters. How does one make a case go away?
Will Judges and jurors on the Grand Jury need protection now? Are they protected?

The Republicans who are being blackmailed wont do anything. Others might which is why Trump may use massive distraction. War, false flag attack, constant crises etc. If he needs emergency powers this must happen before January and the new Congress.

When gauging these options I am evaluating them based on effectiveness. Assuming morality has no effect on Trump's decisions is best.

joe40 · 08-11-2018 12:07PM

In his speech yesterday Trump openly said that if the democrats start investigations he will respond by launching his own investigations. He mentioned e-mails etc.

Is that not an absolutely incredible statement from any leader in a democracy. Surely if there is something that warrants an investigation, a possible crime, then it should be investigated. There should be no other option.

For the president of the US to openly admit that he will initiate tit for tat "investigation" frankly beggars belief.

What passes as normal political discourse in America has become surreal.

B0jangles · 08-11-2018 12:15PM

joe40 wrote: »

In his speech yesterday Trump openly said that if the democrats start investigations he will respond by launching his own investigations. He mentioned e-mails etc.

Is that not an absolutely incredible statement from any leader in a democracy. Surely if there is something that warrants an investigation, a possible crime, then it should be investigated. There should be no other option.

For the president of the US to openly admit that he will initiate tit for tat "investigation" frankly beggars belief.

What passes as normal political discourse in America has become surreal.

Yes but have you considered the important fact that he is an unashamedly rude and ignorant bully, and he makes liberals angry?

His fans love him for these characteristics; they love his inconsistancy, they love the incoherence, they love the open corruption because it all Makes Liberals Angry.

Captain Obvious · 08-11-2018 12:16PM

joe40 wrote: »

In his speech yesterday Trump openly said that if the democrats start investigations he will respond by launching his own investigations. He mentioned e-mails etc.

Is that not an absolutely incredible statement from any leader in a democracy. Surely if there is something that warrants an investigation, a possible crime, then it should be investigated. There should be no other option.

For the president of the US to openly admit that he will initiate tit for tat "investigation" frankly beggars belief.

What passes as normal political discourse in America has become surreal.

He said he was simply going to blame the Dems for everything.

Leroy42 · 08-11-2018 12:18PM

It was a threat, like a mob boss telling a Fed Agent that he knows where the kids go to school.

hill16bhoy · 08-11-2018 12:24PM

demfad wrote: »

This time however the interference may involve appointing someone who directs the Special Counsel not to unseal an indictment on the presidents son. That is just for starters. How does one make a case go away?
Will Judges and jurors on the Grand Jury need protection now? Are they protected?

The Republicans who are being blackmailed wont do anything. Others might which is why Trump may use massive distraction. War, false flag attack, constant crises etc. If he needs emergency powers this must happen before January and the new Congress.

When gauging these options I am evaluating them based on effectiveness. Assuming morality has no effect on Trump's decisions is best.

I find that hard to see. The nature of fascism is that if people don't stand up to it at the start, they don't suddenly draw a line and stand up to it much further down the road.

I expect Romney will merely become the new Jeff Flake.

The only chance any Republicans will grow a backbone is if Trump's approval rating drops massively - down into the 20s - and while it may well drop back into the mid to high 30s, I don't see it going below that.

Thargor · 08-11-2018 12:30PM

Pelvis wrote: »

Do we remember this moment, of Romney with tail firmly between legs?

Romney is now back in politics as the Iowa Senator. Could he come back to bite Trump in the arse?

https://twitter.com/MittRomney/statusrl]

Always have to smile when I see that pic, both of their expressions are too perfect.

hill16bhoy · 08-11-2018 12:41PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Yes but have you considered the important fact that he is an unashamedly rude and ignorant bully, and he makes liberals angry?

His fans love him for these characteristics; they love his inconsistancy, they love the incoherence, they love the open corruption because it all Makes Liberals Angry.

This. It's the number one feature of Trumpism, and the vacuous anti-"PC" reactionary agenda that has infested right-wing politics these days.

Every Trump supporter online, every Trump supporter in the media, every "I'm not a Trump supporter but...", every single one of them engage in this sort of trolling, i) to make themselves feel good in the way that a jealous, petulant five year old boy feels good when he blows out the candles on his three year old sister's birthday cake, ie. to make themselves feel good in a petulant, juvenile way. and ii) because the creation of noise to avoid actual debate, and the absolute debasement of debate into the gutter is essential to the advancement of Trump-style fascism and reactionary politics in general.

The far right have developed a whole genre of troll language to this end.

You don't and can't debate with Trump or a Trump supporter because to them, it's all a game to drag you down, irritate you, annoy you, anger you, make you enraged, make you lose your mind. This is the entirety of their game and this is Trump's game.

Yesterday - what does he do? Threatens investigations against Democrats while openly admitting that it would be a waste of time. Why? Because, well, he can and he feels like it. Just for kicks.

Then, he revokes Jim Acosta's press pass based on a doctored video. Just for kicks.

And while he creates this noise, he ruthlessly advances his kleptocratic agenda and his attack on democracy and justice, with the help of the Republican party, who share the exact same kleptocratic agenda and disregard for democracy and justice, it's just that some of them are slightly uneasy with his open fascism.

dr.fuzzenstein · 08-11-2018 01:05PM

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Very often when there is a debate about fascism and the new right in "that" other part of Boards absolutely not Boards at all, the argument is "well, there had to be a backlash against all dem liberal rubbish".
Or, "them liberals made me into an asshole by being damn liberals!" or even "darn sociailiusts, dey want to give people free money, WAAAAHHH!"
It is a revolution of hate and spite against such horrible and inhuman concepts such as equal rights for gays, blacks or women, abortion, environmentalism, social services, healthcare, education, minimum wage and all the other stuff that makes "libruls" worse than Mao, Hitler and Stalin combined in the eyes of those "new" rightwingers. Basically anything htat would stop them from trampling on the masses in order to expoit them to make the top 1% that little bit more wealthy.
The word "new" is a joke anyway. Is it any better if I call myself a "new" asshole? Does that make me less ore more of an asshole now?
And we have to address the single most ridiculous argument of them all. "You being a pinko, leftie is what made me do it!"
No, you're just an asshole and you needed an excuse to act as such.
Anyway, it is clear that people yearn for a return to fascism and that they had enough of all this peace and harmony sh*t, bring back the Gulags and all that.

demfad · 08-11-2018 01:39PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

I find that hard to see. The nature of fascism is that if people don't stand up to it at the start, they don't suddenly draw a line and stand up to it much further down the road.

I expect Romney will merely become the new Jeff Flake.

The only chance any Republicans will grow a backbone is if Trump's approval rating drops massively - down into the 20s - and while it may well drop back into the mid to high 30s, I don't see it going below that.

For Trump to actually supress an indictment into JR (or the several other indictments which will hurt him) he must defeat the judicary. That means defeating judicary committees in congress etc.
This is not merely the Republicans looking away, he will require them to actively help and consent to him dismantling the two other pillars of the US system in Washington.
They will be actively installing Trump as all-powerful autocrat.
IMO some (who are not absolute lackeys or being blackmailed) will resist.
He still has to worry about media attention.
I would be extremely worried about an imminent massive shock by way of distraction.

Dannyriver · 08-11-2018 01:43PM

demfad wrote: »

For Trump to actually supress an indictment into JR (or the several other indictments which will hurt him) he must defeat the judicary. That means defeating judicary committees in congress etc.
This is not merely the Republicans looking away, he will require them to actively help and consent to him dismantling the two other pillars of the US system in Washington.
They will be actively installing Trump as all-powerful autocrat.
IMO some (who are not absolute lackeys or being blackmailed) will resist.
He still has to worry about media attention.
I would be extremely worried about an imminent massive shock by way of distraction.

That s my worry too. Has been from the moment he was elected.

08-11-2018 01:55PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Very often when there is a debate about fascism and the new right in "that" other part of Boards absolutely not Boards at all, the argument is "well, there had to be a backlash against all dem liberal rubbish".
Or, "them liberals made me into an asshole by being damn liberals!" or even "darn sociailiusts, dey want to give people free money, WAAAAHHH!"
It is a revolution of hate and spite against such horrible and inhuman concepts such as equal rights for gays, blacks or women, abortion, environmentalism, social services, healthcare, education, minimum wage and all the other stuff that makes "libruls" worse than Mao, Hitler and Stalin combined in the eyes of those "new" rightwingers. Basically anything htat would stop them from trampling on the masses in order to expoit them to make the top 1% that little bit more wealthy.
The word "new" is a joke anyway. Is it any better if I call myself a "new" asshole? Does that make me less ore more of an asshole now?
And we have to address the single most ridiculous argument of them all. "You being a pinko, leftie is what made me do it!"
No, you're just an asshole and you needed an excuse to act as such.
Anyway, it is clear that people yearn for a return to fascism and that they had enough of all this peace and harmony sh*t, bring back the Gulags and all that.

Same old dismissals as 2 years ago.
People are sick of being told that things they notice and are obvious are not to be discussed or they're bigots for noticing them. The sad thing is it's still happening and more people are and will be gathered in by the right. Yer boy Casey didn't get the huge vote bump for what he said about travellers, he got it because of the outrage projected at him and people rejecting it. When an area is ruined and it coincides with large immigration over a short period and people express concern they're shouted down. When people want to deny and deflect about Muslim rape gangs in England, when locals in Balbriggan are called racist for saying the things they see with their own eyes. All those things and plenty more are pushing people to the right.

It amazes and saddens me that 2 years later it still happening.

demfad · 08-11-2018 01:57PM

Dannyriver wrote: »

That s my worry too. Has been from the moment he was elected.

Yes. IF there is a sealed indictment on Don Jr (Ivanka may be eventually in jeopardy also) would Donald Trump allow Jr to be indicted or attempt to stop it?
We may have the answer now. I don't think Trump will succeed in the end, but I believe he will do ANYTHING now to try.
(eg he has often mused about why the US did not use their nuclear arsenal)

Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

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