Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

marno21 wrote: »

Can you provide a source for this statement please.

In Ireland, road-building is typically conceived as a precursor to new development, and new development is typically based on access by private car.

Consider these three Ps: precedent, PR and politics.

Precedent is the most obvious, because we've been here already. The existing N6 was planned as a ring road around the city, but the Council ruined it by giving "planning" permission for large traffic-generating developments all around it, including huge areas of surface car parking. All low density, massively wasteful of valuable urban real estate and hugely damaging to the viability of public transport.

The M50 is another example of the way we use bypasses in Ireland. Need we go into details?

Additional precedents include other towns and cities that were bypassed and which subsequently saw a rise in the total number of car trips and in modal share for driving. If that is an incorrect assessment, can you name any bypassed town in Ireland that has experienced a decreased modal share for driving and an increased modal share for public transport, cycling and walking? If there is one it would be good to know, because it would make an interesting and informative study.

PR is either (a) the promotion of the long-demanded "bypass" (now called a ring road or expressway) on the basis that it will make more development possible, or (b) promotion of development on the basis of its proximity to the proposed new road.

Phrases such as "open up" and "free up" are typically used in this context. That's what the pro-bypass lobby were seeking from the very beginning, and it's what they still want now:

Note that the CIF is still using the old GCOB terminology, while carrying the old ideas forward into their inevitable recommendations for yet more road building. They have learned nothing, and they have forgotten nothing.

In fact the CIF are unabashedly just picking up where they left off after the economic crash and the demise of the fatally-flawed GCOB project:

Source: https://constructionnews.ie/regional-development-ireland

As an example of promotion of development on the basis of its proximity to the proposed new road, here's some PR from Bannon, one of the largest commercial property consultancies in Ireland, advertising the "Gateway Shopping Park" as being "only 400 metres from the proposed M6 Galway Bypass".

Here's another:

Source: http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/101299/high-profile-development-lands-in-rahoon-now-for-sale

Finally, for now, there's the political perspective. Irish local and national politicians typically see road-building as a way to "open up" towns, cities and regions for more development.

http://clarechampion.ie/work-to-start-next-year-on-e550m-gort-to-tuam-motorway
https://www.limerickpost.ie/2015/06/18/new-road-to-open-up-irelands-biggest-cul-de-sac
http://wicklowvoice.ie/6802/

They're not building railways with the same speed and enthusiasm, so the result in almost all cases is car-dependent sprawl. What are motorways for but to make more driving more easy?

And here it is from the horse's mouth, so to speak: no less a person than the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar says that the proposed ring road will "free up other parts of the city for further development."

Link: https://connachttribune.ie/listen-leo-varadkar-on-galway-traffic-health-and-councils-no-confidence-motion/

What is the primary purpose of the city's roads? Moving county dwellers in their driver-only cars from A to B and back? Because the rurban commuter cohort, thanks to Galway County Council's stupid "planning" policies over decades, are huge contributors to the city's traffic congestion. You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic.

Are you saying modern cars are not comfortable? What are you driving, a Lada? You didn't refute anything with regard to short distance driving in Galway. The fact remains, because the data have been there for years, is that a significant proportion of journeys in the city are over short distances. The thousands of county drivers entering the city after their long drives from rurban developments spread over a very large commuter catchment meet thousands of city drivers travelling relatively short distances and the resultant mess is called "permanent gridlock" or some such. It's this chaotic and unsustainable mosaic of travel patterns that gives rise to demand for a so-called "bypass", which may ease congestion in the short term but which will not fix the core problems in the long term and will probably make things worse (see the story of the M50).

Our stupid and unsustainable planning policies have led to many thousands of people transplanting themselves to the countryside, many of whom moved out to have "an urban-type home while avoiding the cost of city living" as mentioned in a link posted earlier. Can they be transplanted back? Unlikely. Our "planning" policies over decades have gifted us a legacy of unsustainable transport and infrastructure problems that will last for decades more. An urban motorway costing hundreds of millions of Euro is probably only the start of it.

Private cars, regardless of trip purpose, are massively inefficient. If you want to make the worst possible use of finite space, then the private car is the ideal way to do it.



Look at the picture above. Is either lane "shut down"? Which mode of transport illustrates the most efficient use of available resources?

A better question might be: what are the social implications of our rurban settlement patterns, which is one major source of the seemingly insatiable demand for more road construction?

As stated earlier, probably more than once, 40% of car trips don't cross the river at all. Shifting a chunk of those trips to modes other than massively space-inefficient single-occupant private cars would go a long way to relieving congestion on the river crossings. Likewise, eliminating cross-river trips (such as with Park & Ride, and making much more efficient use of bridges (such as by mode-shifting to public transport especially) would also make much better use of existing infrastructure at much lower cost.

The "miles and miles of tailbacks" are primarily composed of single-occupant cars (90% in Parkmore, according to a Council engineer).

Mandatory? Do you have some sort of ideological objection to transport planning and measures to control private car use?

Speaking of which, do you think that the County Council's construction of a motorway within the City Council's administrative area should be mandatory, to the extent that 40 family homes should be demolished, the relative tranquility of numerous other homes destroyed or diminished, and the property of an even larger group compulsorily acquired, divided or restricted, just so that county car commuters can drive faster?[/quote]


This is just going around in circles, you’re not offering any concrete proposals re public transport options. You’re making out building a road is ‘destroying the tranquility of the area’. Galway is a city, it’s not a nature reserve and the previous plan for the bypass further out avoiding home demolition was denied as I’m sure you’re well aware. You’ve just posted up a random picture of a bus and cars in traffic as your ‘example’ of a public transport solution without offering a single detail re times, roads, lanes, destinations. What’s more important to note however is the picture you’re using is a picture of a good road, with two lanes of traffic and a huge bus lane area, are you aware there isn’t a single road in Galway able to free up that kind of space. There’s barely room for one lane each way, never mind two. As I’ve already stated, Galway City’s roads are not fit for purpose. Building the road in the picture you’ve provided looks to have improved the availability of public transport in that random area, food for thought.
No one wants the bypass to ‘travel faster’, they want two get from a to b. Hospitals, ambulances, people in all sorts of situations. Are you aware a huge amount of people travel into Galway City daily to UHG from as far away as Donegal and other areas for Cancer treatments and other conditions as Galway is the designated ‘centre of excellence’ for the West. And guess where the hospital is located, across the river that doesn’t have enough bridges. Those people don’t have a menu of public transport services to choose from either. I agree planning is poor, foresight is shocking, and public transport options should be developed. However Galway needs more infrastructure to achieve this.
I’m done with this argument. As they say on Dragons Den, I’m out.

WillieMason wrote: »

can you give examples of these cities? so i can compare them to galway?

e.g. Freiburg, Regensburg..........

http://urbanrail.net/eu/de/fr/freiburg.htm

https://www.vag-freiburg.de/fahrplan-linien/netzplaene/liniennetzplan.html

WillieMason wrote: »

Where is this picture taken?

Kraków, Poland.

WillieMason wrote: »

I think its solutions she wants everyone knows the problems

You can see no potential solution in the posted images, no?

Sam Russell wrote: »

Last Saturday, I drove from Athenry to Terryland and back. It was interesting because the traffic was not too bad, but I noticed the inordinate delay at the various traffic lights on the four or so junctions. They are complex and use sequencing that is very inefficient and give rise to tailbacks on the major route. There is also the Coolagh roundabout which also gives rise to problems.

Now, I am not a traffic engineer, but looking at the map, it would appear to me there is plenty of space available to widen the N6 (Bothar Na dTreabh) to allow extra lanes, slip roads and bus lanes where appropriate. The main aim should be to make the N6 free flow as much as possible, and to widen or duplicate the Centenial bridge, again there is space to do so.

Bus transport along the N6 is notable by its absence. Park and rides are also absent. Do the small things first.

Why add lanes only to use those lanes in the most inefficient way possible, ie for private cars?

Ruhanna wrote: »

Or four, in our case: drive, cycle, walk, use public transport.

And yes, we pay tax the same as everybody else does.

Ditto. That's the big problem really - if people were more multi-modal in Galway City and it's surrounds, would there be a want for this City Ring Road.
Car for our household can spend a week or two in the driveway without been moved.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Can we get back on topic. General discussion of tax, motor tax, sprawl, etc are off topic. Discussion on whether Galway Ring road is needed should be put in that thread. Off topic stuff will be moved or deleted depending on whether there is a thread for it.

Can be you more specific (and prescriptive) regarding what is "on topic" in this thread?

For example, what would be an "on topic" response to your post below?

Sam Russell wrote: »

Last Saturday, I drove from Athenry to Terryland and back. It was interesting because the traffic was not too bad, but I noticed the inordinate delay at the various traffic lights on the four or so junctions. They are complex and use sequencing that is very inefficient and give rise to tailbacks on the major route. There is also the Coolagh roundabout which also gives rise to problems.

Now, I am not a traffic engineer, but looking at the map, it would appear to me there is plenty of space available to widen the N6 (Bothar Na dTreabh) to allow extra lanes, slip roads and bus lanes where appropriate. The main aim should be to make the N6 free flow as much as possible, and to widen or duplicate the Centenial bridge, again there is space to do so.

Bus transport along the N6 is notable by its absence. Park and rides are also absent. Do the small things first.

Ruhanna wrote: »

Why so much emphasis on "widening"? The capacity of the Seamus Quirke Road at present (car lanes + bus/bike lanes + bike paths/lanes + footpaths) would be reduced if any of the existing space was reallocated to create another car lane.

The SQR is not a bottleneck. Where people travelling by bike or bus encounter bottlenecks on that side of town is on the Western Distributor Road and on the Deane and Browne roundabouts.

There is a 100% bottleneck for public transport on the Quincentenary Bridge, in the sense that there is no bus lane. So bus service providers don't use it.

There are four lanes (two in each direction) on the Quincentenary Bridge. Reallocating space to bus lanes, implementing bus priority measures at junctions and providing a connected off-road cycle route (with junction priority) on the whole length of the existing N6 Ring Road would increase capacity, not reduce it.

The sheer number, proximity and sequencing of traffic lights on SQR means it certainly is a bottleneck, particularly at busy times.

what_traffic wrote: »

Different bottleneck, maybe bottleneck for a single car user at peak times, but for the person walking, cycling or bus.... Only time they experience the bottleneck is when trying to cross the main SQR/BOD road.

My point was in reply to someone who suggested widening the N6 and BnaT for car traffic, to show that doing so would only funnel traffic faster to SQR which is a bottleneck for cars, and would make very little difference to commute times. I was not advocating for it.

Zzippy wrote: »

My point was in reply to someone who suggested widening the N6 and BnaT for car traffic, to show that doing so would only funnel traffic faster to SQR which is a bottleneck for cars, and would make very little difference to commute times. I was not advocating for it.

Good point.

The key consideration is that an awful lot of discussion about urban road projects in particular are based on the unspoken, default assumption that the design user is a driver.

Even people who should know better, such as former Green Party mayors, fall into that trap to some degree. See the reference here to "45000 people": http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/blog/detail.cfm?id=40

It's a motorway, reportedly, between points B and C on the map below.

One reason why it's a ludicrous project.

Source: http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Galway-N6-Briefing-Document-Final.pdf