Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

Professor Moriarty · 07-11-2018 12:50PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and for whatever reason, socialist countries always seem to be the ones with exploitable workers available, and backed up by force by the government.

Which 'socialist' countries are exploiting their workers?

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2018 12:51PM

2 Scoops wrote: »

There's a pattern there. I was told a few weeks ago by the same poster it was all over for Kavanaugh when it "all comes out next week" and that Lindsey Graham is under investigation for Russian connections and that it's the end for the GOP.

its a funny circle
Kavanaugh :
fords testimony is shaky
"ohh well she's not the main accuser, theres all these others"
others fall away
"ohh well it was all about ford all along"

Russia :
"look at all these people under investigation for russia connections"
most of them cleared
"look we found some new people to accuse, itll definitely stick this time"

and the good old "when we have nothing else were gonna bang on about the tax returns again"

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2018 12:51PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Which 'socialist' countries are exploiting their workers?

China and Bangladesh.

Allow companies to come in under state licence, open where theres more supply than demand for workers, keep out competitors, police enforcement to keep workers in line, basically slavery and no workers rights, dissapear anyone who speaks out or imprison them, government and business hand in hand , its the socialist dream.

prawnsambo · 07-11-2018 12:52PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and for whatever reason, socialist countries always seem to be the ones with exploitable workers available, and backed up by force by the government.

Is India a socialist country?

Socialism isn't the common denominator. Widespread poverty is. Often as a result of exploitation by richer nations. Which is still continuing.

Leroy42 · 07-11-2018 12:54PM

2 Scoops wrote: »

There's a pattern there. I was told a few weeks ago by the same poster it was all over for Kavanaugh when it "all comes out next week" and that Lindsey Graham is under investigation for Russian connections and that it's the end for the GOP.

All very true, but last night signaled a significant change in the dynamics.

Trump will gloss over it, and the wins in the senate sound nice but don't make much difference to what was before as they already had the majority.

Trump has lost a significant part of his control. And with it the chairmanship of many committees. This is a very serious blow to how Trump was operating.

Of course they can stop anything once it gets to the senate, but now at least the DNC have the ability to drive them far harder to the senate to make decisions.

Tax returns will probably be first on the list. I don't expect them to bother with impeachment, it won't get through anyway so waste of time. But Trump struggled to get anywhere with a GOP lead House, and now he faces a DNC controlled house so there is little hope since he is so abrasive against the likes of Pelosi.

To try to thse as nothing has changed, a la Theresa May in the UK, is nonsense.

A major and important victory for the DNC last night. Given the partisan nature of politics in the US, any movement from one side to the other is significant, and 9% is massive in this regard.

Trump, for all his faults, fully understands this, and will focus on the senate. But it was never likely that the DNC would win the senate, and they didn't get 60 so in essence its is as you were.

But the house is a major blow and will cause Trump all sorts of headaches and problems.

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2018 12:54PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Is India a socialist country?

Socialism isn't the common denominator. Widespread poverty is. Often as a result of exploitation by richer nations. Which is still continuing.

it was up until the 70s until everyone was starving and there was no money, now it operates under a quasi liberal government backed up by socialists and communists that make sure it doesnt go too far.

Professor Moriarty · 07-11-2018 12:56PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

China and Bangladesh.

Allow companies to come in under state licence, open where theres more supply than demand for workers, keep out competitors, police enforcement to keep workers in line, basically slavery and no workers rights, dissapear anyone who speaks out or imprison them, government and business hand in hand , its the socialist dream.

Let's park China for a moment.

Bangladesh is virulently free market. Tell me, how do workers in, let's say, India and Pakistan get on?

Havockk · 07-11-2018 12:58PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Is this just a fancy way of saying you hate middle class straight white men, because newsflash buddy - we run everything.

Running a bath would be an ask for yourself.

2 Scoops · 07-11-2018 12:59PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But the house is a major blow and will cause Trump all sorts of headaches and problems.

You quoted the wrong post. I wouldn't say it any differently, it is a big blow. I expect 2 years of deadlock, depending on the outcome of the Mueller investigation.

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2018 12:59PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Let's park China for a moment.

Bangladesh is virulently free market. Tell me, how do workers in, let's say, India and Pakistan get on?

except theyre run by the muslim 'democratic socialist' Bangladesh Awami League. They are still reeling from decades of socialist control before that and companies still use the government and police as their tools to supress workers....

Professor Moriarty · 07-11-2018 01:01PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

except theyre run by the muslim 'democratic socialist' Bangladesh Awami League. They are still reeling from decades of socialist control before that and companies still use the government and police as their tools to supress workers....

So you agree that they are not socialist and are virulently free market. So it's not socialism that is exploiting the workers, it's capitalism.

prawnsambo · 07-11-2018 01:02PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

it was up until the 70s until everyone was starving and there was no money, now it operates under a quasi liberal government backed up by socialists and communists that make sure it doesnt go too far.

India is a parliamentary democracy with a head of state similar to the US. But you haven't addressed the actual issue of poverty and exploitation which is the root reason companies like Nike move around teh world.

And the ludicrous assertion you made that 100 years ago, everything was tickety-boo wrt exploitation of labour, literacy and universal suffrage. But socialism.

Eric Cartman · 07-11-2018 01:05PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So you agree that they are not socialist and are virulently free market. So it's not socialism that is exploiting the workers, it's capitalism.

no, where did I agree to any of that....

Professor Moriarty · 07-11-2018 01:07PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

no, where did I agree to any of that....

Look, Bangladesh isn't a socialist government, it is very much a free market economy. You claimed it was socialist and used it as an example of how socialism exploits workers. You are wrong.

everlast75 · 07-11-2018 01:14PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its a funny circle
Kavanaugh :
fords testimony is shaky
"ohh well she's not the main accuser, theres all these others"
others fall away
"ohh well it was all about ford all along"

Russia :
"look at all these people under investigation for russia connections"
most of them cleared
"look we found some new people to accuse, itll definitely stick this time"

and the good old "when we have nothing else were gonna bang on about the tax returns again"

Funny - both of those investigations were/are being stymied. That is a fact.

Should we therefore conclude that there is no "there there"?

How about you confidently state that if the FBI investigation were allowed conduct a full investigation, Kavanaugh would be exonerated?

How about you confidently state that Trump sit down and talk to Mueller, and he will be exonerated?

Really??

To think either of those things would require that someone was dropped on their head as a baby. Utter nonsense.

oscarBravo · 07-11-2018 01:29PM

ELM327 wrote: »

You're not allowed to have a capitalist viewpoint around here or you will be met with derision.

As a business owner, I have a capitalist viewpoint. What is met with derision around here is libertarianism - the idea that there should be just barely enough government to ensure that corporations and their rich owners can be safely protected from the unwashed hordes.

What's also met with derision is a wilful inability to distinguish "socialism" from "social democracy", which is almost as stupid as the inability to distinguish "socialism" from "national socialism".

Professor Moriarty · 07-11-2018 01:35PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

As a business owner, I have a capitalist viewpoint. What is met with derision around here is libertarianism - the idea that there should be just barely enough government to ensure that corporations and their rich owners can be safely protected from the unwashed hordes.

What's also met with derision is a wilful inability to distinguish "socialism" from "social democracy", which is almost as stupid as the inability to distinguish "socialism" from "national socialism".

Exactly.

Christy42 · 07-11-2018 01:39PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Let's park China for a moment.

Bangladesh is virulently free market. Tell me, how do workers in, let's say, India and Pakistan get on?

except theyre run by the muslim 'democratic socialist' Bangladesh Awami League. They are still reeling from decades of socialist control before that and companies still use the government and police as their tools to supress workers....

Given the chance companies will exploit workers. This has been proven repeatedly.

If there are more workers than jobs then companies can pay what they like and treat workers how they like. In Ireland this can't happen because workers have rights so in times of low jobs workers can't be exploited to same degree. There is little in the way of regulation stopping workers from demanding better wages/ conditions in an upturn.

Ireland has also been built on its university education. Certainly MIT/Harvard etc. are some of the finest in the world. Ireland however has done a far better job educating its workforce which has helped large companies settle here (in spite of the employment laws etc.) and have kick started our economy.

Certainly absolute socialism is terrible as shown by the fact that it was a combination that helped get us out of the mud (with large corporations and high education rates).

However the US is still far too far to the right on this scale. Healthcare is hardly a groundbreaking issue for most of the world. People, rich and poor get sick, why should people with rich parents be the only ones to get better.

As you say you were on welfare and have paid it back. That is the point. If you had not received it you would have struggled to ever pay it back. Socialism here was a net win for you and society.

Blowfish · 07-11-2018 01:48PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

how is he giving them money (genuine question )
n.b. tax cuts are not 'giving them money'

How about the 'deal' with Foxconn? Here's a breakdown of the subsidies for Foxconn, a lot of it is straight up giving them money. It's pretty clear that Trump and the GOP do support a welfare state, just one that performs corporate welfare instead of social welfare:

During a special session, Wisconsin State Assembly passed and the governor signed a subsidy package to attract Foxconn to the state. The state approved $2.85 billion over 15 years in refundable corporate tax credits that will offset 17 percent of the company's payroll costs ($1.5 billion) and 15 percent of capital expenditures ($1.35 billion). Wisconsin already had tax breaks that would eliminate Foxconn's state tax obligation (Manufacturing and Agriculture tax credit and Single Sales Factor);thus the subsidy was to be paid in cash. In addition, the state approved $150 million in sales tax exemptions on construction materials. The state also agreed to spend $252.4 million on road improvements for the future facility. Mount Pleasant Village agreed to create a Tax Increment Financing district whose cost has been estimated at $1.49 billion, including $763.8 million in tax increments that will pay for the project, $166.5 million in interest, and other administrative costs. Racine County agreed to provide $50 million towards the land acquisition. In addition, Foxconn was granted workforce development assistance. The company was also exempted from various environmental laws and regulations

Water John · 07-11-2018 01:50PM

Funny, the EU would not allow such subsidisation.

Captain Obvious · 07-11-2018 02:03PM

I wasn't aware Hope Hicks left the White House for cushy number in Fox News. The relationship between those two organisations is ridiculous.

jobbridge4life · 07-11-2018 02:07PM

As someone who hopes for Trump to be held accountable in a manner appropriate for any POTUS last night was not a bad night, not a great night either though.

Perhaps the greatest signal of hope:

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1060071275933114368

everlast75 · 07-11-2018 02:07PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I wasn't aware Hope Hicks left the White House for cushy number in Fox News. The relationship between those two organisations is ridiculous.

Two night's Hannity denied reports he was on the campaign trail with Trump.
Later that evening, he appeared on stage with Trump.

Christy42 · 07-11-2018 02:08PM

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/the-man-in-charge-of-overseeing-georgias-elections-had-trouble-voting-on-election-day

Wait. If I have this right the man in charge of elections in Georgia this year is also running in an election this year in Georgia? The story talks about some admin error but that is minor for me.

How is someone in charge of these elections running in them? Next up Sexton will ref our game vs New Zealand?

This is ridiculous and beyond parody. These issues also stem long before Trump as well.

Blowfish · 07-11-2018 02:09PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

As a business owner, I have a capitalist viewpoint. What is met with derision around here is libertarianism

With corporate welfare (e.g. Foxconn), regressive social policy (transgender in military, jeff sessions & weed), massive deficits, voter suppression, anti immigration, increased military spending etc. I have no idea how someone can claim to be libertarian and support Trump or the GOP.

ancapailldorcha · 07-11-2018 02:12PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

As a business owner, I have a capitalist viewpoint. What is met with derision around here is libertarianism - the idea that there should be just barely enough government to ensure that corporations and their rich owners can be safely protected from the unwashed hordes.

I went down the libertarian bunny hole a few years ago after reading the thoughts of a few erudite libertarians including a few people who used to frequent this site.

The problem though is that it is a philosophy of "NO!" save for making what libertarians perceive to be lesser people suffer in some way such as restricting women's reproductive rights or, as you say keeping the game rigged in favour of oligarchs and corporations. The moment Gary Johnson suggested colonising other planets as a response to climate change sums up the whole ideology quite well.

MadYaker · 07-11-2018 02:31PM

With congress gone to the dems the wall is surely dead now. No way will the dems ever fund it. I never thought it would be built anyway but this removes the possibility completely. I wonder will trump be able to work with the dems if so what bills would they pass? Infrastructure maybe, or take another stab at healthcare.

Water John · 07-11-2018 02:38PM

Conor Lamb has said his priorities are infrastructure and cost of medicines, not impeachment.
I think the DNC will simply let the Mueller inquiry take its natural course. Simply deal with its findings.
This doesn't mean the WH will not be closely subject to oversight. But deals on agreed projects is quite possible. Don't see the obstructionist agenda that the GOP deployed in the past being repeated.

prawnsambo · 07-11-2018 02:44PM

MadYaker wrote: »

With congress gone to the dems the wall is surely dead now. No way will the dems ever fund it. I never thought it would be built anyway but this removes the possibility completely. I wonder will trump be able to work with the dems if so what bills would they pass? Infrastructure maybe, or take another stab at healthcare.

It's already a dead duck. People actually believe it's being built whereas the reality is that sections of fencing and other constructions that are being replaced are being called 'the wall'.

Details aside, the administration has been consistent in saying any border security construction will be considered part of a "wall" or "wall system" under Trump. "To us, it's all new wall," Nielsen said at a White House briefing in April. "If there was a wall before that needs to be replaced, it's being replaced by a new wall. This is Trump's border wall."
In October, as Nielsen christened the bollards at Calexico, workers put a literal stamp on the project. When Nielsen arrived at the site, two men welded an engraved plaque to one of the bollards. It read: “This plaque was installed on October 26, 2018 to commemorate the completion of the first section of President Trump’s border wall.”

Igotadose · 07-11-2018 04:02PM

Christy42 wrote: »

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/the-man-in-charge-of-overseeing-georgias-elections-had-trouble-voting-on-election-day

Wait. If I have this right the man in charge of elections in Georgia this year is also running in an election this year in Georgia? The story talks about some admin error but that is minor for me.

How is someone in charge of these elections running in them? Next up Sexton will ref our game vs New Zealand?

This is ridiculous and beyond parody. These issues also stem long before Trump as well.

It's a GOP thing. Soon as they get in power, disenfranchisement starts. Shameful thing is that criminal Kemp, who was the Secretary of State in Georgia so had the remit to oversee voting, used his office to suppress votes blatantly, got caught on tape saying, basically, too many minorities are voting, tried to run an investigation into the Democratic party, etc.

It may be that he wins, the race is too close to call and there are a lot of absentee ballots. There was a libertarian candidate, too, who garnered a few votes.

I expect this one will go on for awhile even after the absentee ballots are counted.

Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

Comments