Ireland’s justice system - why is it such a joke?

23-10-2018 12:27AM #1

Honestly, when chaps can cut about robbing and taking drugs left and right without ever seeing the inside of a cell bar a few hours down at the Garda barracks, why bother behaving yourself? And even if you DO manage to land in prison, you’ve got televisions and games consoles to play. “Anti suicide devices”. Is there any other country that is as soft on convicts as Ireland is?

Margaret cash - 39 convictions no prison time served to date for example

I’ve read articles of young lads in court with a hundred or more previous CONVICTIONS not just crimes committed & they get a suspended sentence or told to behave themselves and away with you. Are we afraid to put people in prison?

Silentcorner · 23-10-2018 12:34AM

Each conviction consists of a legal bill picked up by us the taxpayer under the guise of free legal aid.

The legal sector refuses to be reformed, despite the Troika making that reform one of the conditions of the bailout we received in 2010.

The legal sector makes an absolute fortune on the backs of all those young people, who's lives are pretty much destroyed after the 3rd or 4th conviction, where in this country do you think that bill is at its highest? Why do you think the media never exposes the costs involved and who is benefitting from them?

23-10-2018 12:37AM

I’ve said it a few times the past couple of days but a system like the US is what we need to be honest. There’s no bull**** with crimes over there. You can go down for a good number of years for things we’d get yelled at in court and sent away for over here. It honestly feels like unless you murder someone or rape a woman or child you just won’t go to prison. It’s scandalous.

KungPao · 23-10-2018 12:43AM

Too many do gooders. It’ll come to a head soon. Many people are fed up with the criminals and sponges laughing in our faces.

Blazer · 23-10-2018 12:47AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Each conviction consists of a legal bill picked up by us the taxpayer under the guise of free legal aid.

The legal sector refuses to be reformed, despite the Troika making that reform one of the conditions of the bailout we received in 2010.

The legal sector makes an absolute fortune on the backs of all those young people, who's lives are pretty much destroyed after the 3rd or 4th conviction, where in this country do you think that bill is at its highest? Why do you think the media never exposes the costs involved and who is benefitting from them?

And this is it exactly.
Judges, guards, solicitors etc are all creaming it off the state. The whole system is corrupt as hell.

23-10-2018 06:03AM

Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS wrote: »

I’ve said it a few times the past couple of days but a system like the US is what we need to be honest. There’s no bull**** with crimes over there. You can go down for a good number of years for things we’d get yelled at in court and sent away for over here. It honestly feels like unless you murder someone or rape a woman or child you just won’t go to prison. It’s scandalous.

It doesn't reduce crime, though.

Reati · 23-10-2018 06:20AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It doesn't reduce crime, though.

No, but it's good old Christian vengeance and that makes them all feel good!

judeboy101 · 23-10-2018 06:23AM

We have a legal system not a justice system.

Wanderer78 · 23-10-2018 06:39AM

Maybe we need to invest heavily in our social systems to prevent some of the most common issues known amongst criminal populations.

Peregrinus · 23-10-2018 07:14AM

Julien Fancy SleepwearMGS wrote: »

Honestly, when chaps can cut about robbing and taking drugs left and right without ever seeing the inside of a cell bar a few hours down at the Garda barracks, why bother behaving yourself? And even if you DO manage to land in prison, you’ve got televisions and games consoles to play. “Anti suicide devices”. Is there any other country that is as soft on convicts as Ireland is?

Gosh, yes, there are many countries that are softer than Ireland. Germany, for example. The Netherlands. All the Nordic countries - Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland. Japan. All these countries have lower imprisonment rates than Ireland (as in, they have a lower proportion of their population in prison at any time than we do). And, famously, most of these countries have moe liberal prison regimes than we do.

Imprisonment rate-wise, we're about on a par with Croatia, Switzerland and Belgium.

whisky_galore · 23-10-2018 07:29AM

Too many noses in the trough and the legal system's legendary reluctance to change.

Roger Hassenforder · 23-10-2018 07:38AM

Take a stroll into your local district court. Its an eye opening experience.

two tiers of society will become very evident. The lawyers making a fortune out of it, spinning the same yarns, for the same scrotes with the same outcomes, and the slack jawed, slouching scrotes with absolute contempt for the courts & law, society and you.
Its a minor inconvenience in their day, be summoned snd pick up yet another meaningless conviction. There will be the odd defendant mortified to be there, terrified.

Theyre all in kn the joke.

Suckler · 23-10-2018 07:53AM

Blazer wrote: »

And this is it exactly.
Judges, guards, solicitors etc are all creaming it off the state. The whole system is corrupt as hell.

How are the Gardai 'creaming it'? They don't get a bonus payment every time they arrest the same degenerate.
I can't imagine how soul destroying it must be for some members of The Garda, arresting the same knackers ever few weeks only to have them come out the revolving door again.

Peregrinus · 23-10-2018 07:53AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Take a stroll into your local district court. Its an eye opening experience.

two tiers of society will become very evident. The lawyers making a fortune out of it, spinning the same yarns, for the same scrotes with the same outcomes, and the slack jawed, slouching scrotes with absolute contempt for the courts & law, society and you.
Its a minor inconvenience in their day, be summoned snd pick up yet another meaningless conviction. There will be the odd defendant mortified to be there, terrified.

Theyre all in kn the joke.

The joke is that anyone imagines that lawyers doing criminal defence work in the District Court are making a fortune out of it.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-10-2018 07:55AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gosh, yes, there are many countries that are softer than Ireland. Germany, for example. The Netherlands. All the Nordic countries - Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland. Japan. All these countries have lower imprisonment rates than Ireland (as in, they have a lower proportion of their population in prison at any time than we do). And, famously, most of these countries have moe liberal prison regimes than we do.

Imprisonment rate-wise, we're about on a par with Croatia, Switzerland and Belgium.

We are probably a more violent society to begin with. The incarceration statistic on its own isn’t that useful.

Suckler · 23-10-2018 08:50AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gosh, yes, there are many countries that are softer than Ireland. Germany, for example. The Netherlands. All the Nordic countries - Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland. Japan. All these countries have lower imprisonment rates than Ireland (as in, they have a lower proportion of their population in prison at any time than we do). And, famously, most of these countries have moe liberal prison regimes than we do.

Imprisonment rate-wise, we're about on a par with Croatia, Switzerland and Belgium.

The part I've highlighted is the problem here. If we actually took a mature look at prisons and reforming people while they are imprisoned we would see change. Instead we get the mob shouting "they all get playstations" etc. Inevitably when people do get out and have a string of convictions who would employ them? If we had some sort of reform process, we would changed people fit for societal norms emerge.
Most people expect prison to be some 18th century Dickensian hell hole; fine, but what do you think they will be like upon their release?

Peregrinus · 23-10-2018 08:51AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

We are probably a more violent society to begin with. The incarceration statistic on its own isn’t that useful.

If so, lower rates of violent crime in the Nordic countries not be entirely a matter of "to begin with". Nordic penal policy is predicated on the not unreasonable belief that brutalising people is unlikely to be an effective way of reducing violent crime, and so the way to reduce crime rates is through a more humane, not a less humane, penal policy. So the lower rates of violent crime may in fact be the product of the lower imprisonment rates, rather than the cause of them.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-10-2018 08:54AM

Suckler wrote: »

The part I've highlighted is the problem here. If we actually took a mature look at prisons and reforming people while they are imprisoned we would see change. Instead we get the mob shouting "they all get playstations" etc. Inevitably when people do get out and have a string of convictions who would employ them? If we had some sort of reform process, we would changed people fit for societal norms emerge.
Most people expect prison to be some 18th century Dickensian hell hole; fine, but what do you think they will be like upon their release?

The solution to a failing justice system is even more liberalism? Hardly. Why would gang members go straight and work in McDonalds after a few cushy years in the clink. Crime pays.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-10-2018 08:56AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

If so, lower rates of violent crime in the Nordic countries not be entirely a matter of "to begin with". Nordic penal policy is predicated on the not unreasonable belief that brutalising people is unlikely to be an effective way of reducing violent crime, and so the way to reduce crime rates is through a more humane, not a less humane, penal policy. So the lower rates of violent crime may in fact be the product of the lower imprisonment rates, rather than the cause of them.

Or not. In the meantime while swathes of working class areas are left rot

And what’s particularly brutalising about the jail system here. Incarceration is a given. What else is not working?

valoren · 23-10-2018 08:56AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Each conviction consists of a legal bill picked up by us the taxpayer under the guise of free legal aid.

The legal sector refuses to be reformed, despite the Troika making that reform one of the conditions of the bailout we received in 2010.

The legal sector makes an absolute fortune on the backs of all those young people, who's lives are pretty much destroyed after the 3rd or 4th conviction, where in this country do you think that bill is at its highest? Why do you think the media never exposes the costs involved and who is benefitting from them?

Agreed. They, the offenders, are like the geese that lay the golden eggs. To give custodial sentences is to kill that goose.

murpho999 · 23-10-2018 08:57AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

We are probably a more violent society to begin with. The incarceration statistic on its own isn’t that useful.

We're not really.

We're all people.

Ireland is a very safe place to live and no where near as bad as people on the internet make out.

Crime here is way down on other countries.

Violent crime is also way lower.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-10-2018 08:59AM

murpho999 wrote: »

We're not really.

We're all people.

Ireland is a very safe place to live and no where near as bad as people on the internet make out.

Crime here is way down on other countries.

Violent crime is also way lower.

Please try and read the context of posts you respond to.

murpho999 · 23-10-2018 09:02AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Please try and read the context of posts you respond to.

Quite capabable of reading thank you. Just don't agree with your point about Ireland being a more violent society.

Suckler · 23-10-2018 09:06AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The solution to a failing justice system is even more liberalism? Hardly. Why would gang members go straight and work in McDonalds after a few cushy years in the clink. Crime pays.

You've just proven my point; Prisoner reform = an ill informed cry of "cushy years" & Liberalism.

So the solution to an, agreed, failing justice system is...? More of the same system which is failing ?
I never mentioned an liberalism. I wrote about prisoner reform; e.g. the like of Larry Murphy can't stroll out without having undertaken serious monitored counselling/victim impact assessment etc.

Prisoners are going to be released, if we want/expect them to become functioning members of a decent society we need to break their reliance on crime.

Roger Hassenforder · 23-10-2018 09:09AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

The joke is that anyone imagines that lawyers doing criminal defence work in the District Court are making a fortune out of it.

The joke is the effort involved for a few bob. Do enough of it. Copy and paste the same sob story... ching ching.... next.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-10-2018 09:10AM

murpho999 wrote: »

Quite capabable of reading thank you. Just don't agree with your point about Ireland being a more violent society.

More violent than Norway in the context of what I was answering. Clearly.

murpho999 · 23-10-2018 09:13AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The solution to a failing justice system is even more liberalism? Hardly. Why would gang members go straight and work in McDonalds after a few cushy years in the clink. Crime pays.

You do realise that the worst thing about being inside is having your freedom and access to outside denied. You're in the same building 24/7.

The days of chain gangs, torture, solitary confinement etc are gone and do not prevent crime.

Blazer · 23-10-2018 09:14AM

Suckler wrote: »

How are the Gardai 'creaming it'? They don't get a bonus payment every time they arrest the same degenerate.
I can't imagine how soul destroying it must be for some members of The Garda, arresting the same knackers ever few weeks only to have them come out the revolving door again.

The old boys as they’re known. They’ve been creaming the overtime for decades and buying houses left right and center since they know which ones were going up for sale. My mate is a customs agent but when he stated out he was assigned to Dublin and he used to tell me about the older cops who owned a ton of houses as they picked them up cheaply after evictions etc etc.
He used to be lamenting he didn’t go for them sooner as he would have been sorted.
Granted there’s no new members creaming it that’s for sure. But obviously the more crime you have the more man power you need,or the more overtime is needed if you have less manpower etc.
I feel sorry for anyone starting out in the guards now, crap pay , crap conditions and no respect from the public which is justified given the corruption in the force.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 23-10-2018 09:15AM

murpho999 wrote: »

You do realise that the worst thing about being inside is having your freedom and access to outside denied. You're in the same building 24/7.

The days of chain gangs, torture, solitary confinement etc are gone and do not prevent crime.

Again, out of context. I was asking a poster what was particularly bad about Irish prisons now. Not in the past.

It seems you don’t even want incarceration.

wexie · 23-10-2018 09:16AM

What it comes down to in my opinion, is that we have neither the harsh sentences and system they seem to want to use in the US as a deterrent, nor the rehabilitative/reformative systems they use in places like Norway or Holland.

We have the worst of both systems. :mad:

(interesting fact, in Holland the incarceration rates are so low they have actually started importing prisoners from other countries https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37904263)

While I personally think that a system such as Holland or Norway have would probably more effective in the long run, I also think there is absolutely no excuse for people with 100+ convictions to be out and about in open society.

You could argue of course that 'the system' hasn't tried reforming them...but how often does a person need to show they're not getting the message you can't behave like this?

murpho999 · 23-10-2018 09:17AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

More violent than Norway in the context of what I was answering. Clearly.

World Murder Rates

Don't know why you picked Norway but look above and you'll see Ireland is well down the list for murder.

Ireland’s justice system - why is it such a joke?

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