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NFL style draft in Irish rugby?

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    #32
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    troyzer wrote: »
    I'll give you population but the other two are not inherent advantages Leinster has that can't be done in other provinces.

    Population and numbers playing the game are inherently linked, tho.


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    #33
    2smiggy
    Registered Users Posts: 20,203 ✭✭✭✭2smiggy


    Riskymove wrote: »
    well....imagine you came first in class at college and then the worst company in the industry you qualified in just got to pick you and, effectively, owned all rights to you!

    Here people generally get to choose who to go and work for

    well they are picking from an 'amateur' sport , and you are not forced to go to any team, or declare for the draft. I see what you are saying, but this is how i imagine how they get over certain regulations


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    #34
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Noel Reid will never be ready to be a top flight 10. But he is, at best, third choice and more likely fourth.

    What happened two years ago when Sexton, Carberry and Marsh were all unavailable? Byrne stepped up. Maybe this time it will be Frawley. Or maybe we will have to face the horror of our 3rd to 4th choice outhalf not being amazing just like everyone else.

    Yes but again, we had a 3rd choice flyhalf who was test level (Joey Carbery). I don't get this argument that because we're way better at developing talent, we should let it go and settle for being the same as everyone else? What's the point trying to be better if your gains will be taken off you?
    2smiggy wrote: »
    You can get every one to do a lot more riding, we could catch up in two generations ?

    It would hardly take that long. Munster were regularly out playing Leinster in recent memory.
    aloooof wrote: »
    Population and numbers playing the game are inherently linked, tho.

    Yes they are, in which case Leinster only has one advantage: population. All other advantages stem from that. I'm not disputing that Leinster is bigger. But it's not THAT much bigger than Ulster. Ulster has a million more people and is far less successful than Munster in Europe. It's not all about population. It is not an insurmountable, inherent advantage.

    We certainly weren't talking about inherent advantages when Munster outshone Leinster for ten years. It's the same argument people use against Dublin GAA, they weren't complaining when Kerry were dominating.


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    #35
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    troyzer wrote: »
    Why aren't we starting off on a level playing field? Compared to Connacht I'd agree, population wise. Munster is a lot less but still has well over a million people and Ulster is nearly the same as Leinster population wise.

    ah come on, you must realise that rugby is not played in all areas equally. Large parts of the country have little or no rugby played in schools

    I grew up in apart of Dublin city and never encountered rugby at school or in the locality. Only CBS schools or private schools played it at the time.

    You would think from your posts that this is the first time players have moved from Leinster to other provinces. It has been going on for a long time - and by the way it has also happened that Munster men have played for leinster.

    There is simply too many players now being developed to service just Leinster or indeed maybe even all 4 professional clubs. The number moving abroad is noticeable.


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    #36
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    2smiggy wrote: »
    well they are picking from an 'amateur' sport , and you are not forced to go to any team, or declare for the draft. I see what you are saying, but this is how i imagine how they get over certain regulations

    The NFL draft obviously isn't illegal cause America is the wild west for labour rights.

    It would be illegal in Europe. I guess you might get away with it in Ireland as ultimately you end up working for the IRFU either way but I'd have my doubts.


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    #37
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    troyzer wrote: »
    Yes but again, we had a 3rd choice flyhalf who was test level (Joey Carbery). I don't get this argument that because we're way better at developing talent, we should let it go and settle for being the same as everyone else? What's the point trying to be better if your gains will be taken off you?

    When Leinster can stand entirely on their own two feet with no help or input from the IRFU at all this may be a reasonable argument. But currently it is not.


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    #38
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Riskymove wrote: »
    ah come on, you must realise that rugby is not played in all areas equally. Large parts of the country have little or no rugby played in schools

    I grew up in apart of Dublin city and never encountered rugby at school or in the locality. Only CBS schools or private schools played it at the time.

    You would think from your posts that this is the first time players have moved from Leinster to other provinces. It has been going on for a long time - and by the way it has also happened that Munster men have played for leinster.

    There is simply too many players now being developed to service just Leinster or indeed maybe even all 4 professional clubs. The number moving abroad is noticeable.

    I never encountered rugby until I was in my mid teens. I grew up in a soccer house, I'm sure most people in Dublin did.

    Rugby is a minority sport in all parts of Ireland.

    It's not the first time players have moved, but it's getting irritating. They're taking players at positions we are weakest.

    Taking Jordi Murphy is fair enough, we're stacked there. It's impossible to make a defence for keeping him.


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    #39
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    With the acknowledgement that Carberry was an unusual situation, they are nonetheless not taking anyone. No more than Leinster took Cronin, Hogan, Reddan, Henshaw et al.


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    #40
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,552 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    troyzer wrote: »
    Yes but again, we had a 3rd choice flyhalf who was test level (Joey Carbery). I don't get this argument that because we're way better at developing talent, we should let it go and settle for being the same as everyone else? What's the point trying to be better if your gains will be taken off you?



    It would hardly take that long. Munster were regularly out playing Leinster in recent memory.



    Yes they are, in which case Leinster only has one advantage: population. All other advantages stem from that. I'm not disputing that Leinster is bigger. But it's not THAT much bigger than Ulster. Ulster has a million more people and is far less successful than Munster in Europe. It's not all about population. It is not an insurmountable, inherent advantage.

    We certainly weren't talking about inherent advantages when Munster outshone Leinster for ten years. It's the same argument people use against Dublin GAA, they weren't complaining when Kerry were dominating.


    50% of Ulster's population has no exposure to rugby at school age. Ulster has no fee paying schools anymore.

    Munster, in reality, have only ever built one team capable of winning a European cup, in a era where they ended up with a freakishly good pack. And rugby back then was totally different. To be honest, I don't think Munster will ever develop another team capable of winning the European cup, they (like most others) will be reliant on developing the basis of a squad and then recruiting in players from elsewhere to end up with a team that's good enough.

    I think it is really only relatively recently that rugby has properly sorted itself out as a professional sport, with players being exposed to professional standards at a much younger age, going through academies with very defined pathways for development etc. I think Leinster are best placed to take advantage of this, and to be fair they do it very well.


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    #41
    jamfer
    Registered Users Posts: 91 ✭✭jamfer


    There is a player pathway in place for developing players. That pathway encompasses both schools and clubs. There is a lot of work involved in promoting rugby and attracting 6 year olds into the game. For many it is an elitist sport. The focus on schools does nothing to remove that. Growing the game is what you should be doing. Opening up new areas, new streams, new people to the game and the values of respect and discipline on field and off should be the guiding rule, not retrograde steps,closing down access to the top.

    I would challenge anybody to go to an U15, U16, U17 or U18 Premier League final and tell me that the club players involved aren't as skilled or talented as a schools player. The Shane Horgan Cup is the first step on the Leinster player pathway for club players - go to the games and judge for yourself - there's a round in Donnybrook on January 2.

    Also played in Donnybrook are the U15 McAuley Cup and the U17 Culleton Cup, these again will feature the creme of club players.

    There is more to rugby than schools.


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    #42
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,552 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    jamfer wrote: »
    There is a player pathway in place for developing players. That pathway encompasses both schools and clubs. There is a lot of work involved in promoting rugby and attracting 6 year olds into the game. For many it is an elitist sport. The focus on schools does nothing to remove that. Growing the game is what you should be doing. Opening up new areas, new streams, new people to the game and the values of respect and discipline on field and off should be the guiding rule, not retrograde steps,closing down access to the top.

    I would challenge anybody to go to an U15, U16, U17 or U18 Premier League final and tell me that the club players involved aren't as skilled or talented as a schools player. The Shane Horgan Cup is the first step on the Leinster player pathway for club players - go to the games and judge for yourself - there's a round in Donnybrook on January 2.

    Also played in Donnybrook are the U15 McAuley Cup and the U17 Culleton Cup, these again will feature the creme of club players.

    There is more to rugby than schools.
    True, but in reality how many of today's professionals came through the club game rather than the school game?



    Schools still rule the roost for player development in Ireland.


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    #43
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,408 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Actually, for all the talk of “taking” players, where it works is where it is driven by an ambitious player themselves. Jordi Murphy and John Cooney both instigated their moves to Ulster. Ambition  (usually to play for the national team) proved more compelling than provincial loyalty. Jordi wants to represent Ireland. So does Cooney.
     
    Cooney is rapidly becoming a serious hero up here in Ulster, and it’s not just for the quality of his play, or the high drama of some of our wins he has delivered with last minute kicks. It’s because he has come up here and given his all, off the pitch as well as on it. And because he said “I want to go to Ulster”.


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    #44
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Paul Smeenus wrote: »
    Actually, for all the talk of “taking” players, where it works is where it is driven by an ambitious player themselves. Jordi Murphy and John Cooney both instigated their moves to Ulster. Ambition  (usually to play for the national team) proved more compelling than provincial loyalty. Jordi wants to represent Ireland. So does Cooney.
     
    Cooney is rapidly becoming a serious hero up here in Ulster, and it’s not just for the quality of his play, or the high drama of some of our wins he has delivered with last minute kicks. It’s because he has come up here and given his all, off the pitch as well as on it. And because he said “I want to go to Ulster”.

    It's like saying "I really like monday mornings" or "Rocky V was the best one".

    You really have to question the sanity of the person saying it.


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    #45
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,408 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Shut it. That’s OUR madman you’re talking about.


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    #46
    jamfer
    Registered Users Posts: 91 ✭✭jamfer


    If rugby is to grow I suggest that that should change. What is the footprint in Leinster of the schools? How many are there and how many players do they have?

    Club rugby is in every corner of the 12 counties of the province. Last season there were over 75 finals played for U13 to U18 players. There are upwards of 5,000 players in those age groups in club rugby. There is a huge population there that is not served by a focus on schools.

    GAA is there, all the way along. If your talent isn't recognised, because nobody is looking beyond the exulted schools, then you'll chase the county jersey instead.


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    #47
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I agree with Mortis. Right now it's diluting due to necessity, medium to long term though each academy needs to improve as much as possible to limit it.

    The provinces thrive on their local identities, I think it would take away much of the edge to remove that ingredient.

    All my life was leading up to this. Now we are best friends you can call me Rigor.
    I like stuff, do you like stuff too.


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    #48
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    troyzer wrote: »
    It's like saying "I really like monday mornings" or "Rocky V was the best one".

    You really have to question the sanity of the person saying it.

    The flip side is, if Carberry or Cooney have a kick in the 78th minute to win the World Cup final, would you rather they had been playing regularly for Munster and Ulster respectively in the previous season?


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    #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rigor Mortis wrote: »
    All my life was leading up to this. Now we are best friends you can call me Rigor.
    I like stuff, do you like stuff too.

    What'cha doooin.....?


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    #50
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    aloooof wrote: »
    The flip side is, if Carberry or Cooney have a kick in the 78th minute to win the World Cup final, would you rather they had been playing regularly for Munster and Ulster respectively in the previous season?

    Ugggggh.

    You're making me choose between leprosy and gonorrhea.


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    #51
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    aloooof wrote: »
    The flip side is, if Carberry or Cooney have a kick in the 78th minute to win the World Cup final, would you rather they had been playing regularly for Munster and Ulster respectively in the previous season?
    I don't think you can invoke his name if you can't spell it. :P


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    #52
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I don't think you can invoke his name if you can't spell it. :P

    I'm just glad I didn't call him Cadbury. ;)


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    #53
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,623 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    aloooof wrote: »
    I'm just glad I didn't call him Cadbury. ;)

    Joey Carvery, cause he can slice up defences :cool:


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    #54
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    I ****ing hate the idea of a draft. I don't even care if it results in better outcomes for Irish rugby. I want to watch Leinster lads playing for Leinster.


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    #55
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    I ****ing hate the idea of a draft. I don't even care if it results in better outcomes for Irish rugby. I want to watch Leinster lads playing for Leinster.

    Good solid Leinster lads like Seán Cronin, Robbie Henshaw, Jamison Gibson Park, James Lowe, Scott Fardy, Michael Bent, Vakh Abdaladze, Ian Nagle and Joe Tomane.


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    #56
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What'cha doooin.....?

    no...you hang up


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rigor Mortis wrote: »
    no...you hang up

    81vxqtrl3oL._SY450_.jpg


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    #58
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    troyzer wrote: »
    Good solid Leinster lads like Seán Cronin, Robbie Henshaw, Jamison Gibson Park, James Lowe, Scott Fardy, Michael Bent, Vakh Abdaladze, Ian Nagle and Joe Tomane.

    Yep exactly.


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I agree with Mortis. Right now it's diluting due to necessity, medium to long term though each academy needs to improve as much as possible to limit it.

    The provinces thrive on their local identities, I think it would take away much of the edge to remove that ingredient.

    As much as I agree with not having a draft (NFL is a closed league with all teams participating in draft, unlike Pro) I have issue with assuming all academies are ever going to be equal. There are going to be far more kids passing through the Leinster and Ulster gates, followed by Munster and Connacht a distant 4th.

    Even if they allow more into Connacht it will be to pad the numbers.

    The anomaly is the weakness of Ulster and not to relative over performance of Connacht (and to lesser extent Munster)


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As much as I agree with not having a draft (NFL is a closed league with all teams participating in draft, unlike Pro) I have issue with assuming all academies are ever going to be equal. There are going to be far more kids passing through the Leinster and Ulster gates, followed by Munster and Connacht a distant 4th.

    Even if they allow more into Connacht it will be to pad the numbers.

    The anomaly is the weakness of Ulster and not to relative over performance of Connacht (and to lesser extent Munster)

    You are right for sure, but Leinster's academy is out pacing most European academies and I think that goes beyond entry level playing numbers.

    Is it just the basic numbers or is the setup in Leinster between the clubs, schools and academies operating at a more efficient level and producing better results?

    If we can rule out variations in standards then yes, numbers and movement need to be looked at but I'd bet there is a variation there which the IRFU seem to be very focused on at the moment.


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    #61
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,309 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    troyzer wrote: »
    Good solid Leinster lads like Seán Cronin, Robbie Henshaw, Jamison Gibson Park, James Lowe, Scott Fardy, Michael Bent, Vakh Abdaladze, Ian Nagle and Joe Tomane.

    In fairness one of that list has lived in Leinster from before he was a teenager and one grew up in Leinster.


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