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Anti-vaxxers

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    #1802
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,072 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    astrofool wrote: »
    Simpons bear patrol best summed it up:
    Quimby: Are these morons getting dumber or just louder?
    Aide: Dumber, Sir.

    And now, they have Facebook! More gullible, too, whatever *did* happen to good old cynicism


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    #1803
    Cupatae
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭Cupatae


    Call me Al wrote: »
    The key word there is legitimate.

    But as we all know so many people give credence to simplistic and or misleading articles often of questionable provenance they may have read, written by Mr/Dr?.unknown, but which intrinsically appeals to a bias the person may already have (consciously or otherwise).

    And that in their eyes becomes legitimate.

    Well i dont really know enough about vaccines and the ins and outs of em to debate that, but id imagine there are some vaccines with legitimate concerns out there..

    I do think though that random studies from "Dr.Unknown" and hyperbolic media do tend to muddy the water alot


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    #1804
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    astrofool wrote: »
    At the time, people were panicking due to Swine flu and thought the world was going to end, so when the vaccine was available, it should have been made clear that the level of testing was less than other vaccines (I knew this and still got it), but because it wasn't made clear (and I mean shout it, yellow warning labels etc.) people use it as a stick to beat the entire industry.

    How did you know that the level of testing was less than other vaccines? Information leaflets from the HSE at that time claimed that the vaccine was fully tested!


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    #1805
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The Influenza virus mutates but the vaccine is produced in the same manner annually. This is why it was able to be made so quickly.

    This is an interesting letter from the IMB to the Chief Medical Officer. It states "It is important to recognise that currently available clinical and non-clinical data relates solely to studies involving the H5N1 mock-up vaccines and these mock-up vaccines were stand-alone applications relating to 'new' vaccines and not necessarily developed in a similar manner to seasonal flu vaccines.


    Link


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    #1806
    dexter_morgan
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭dexter_morgan


    VicMackey1 wrote: »
    This is an interesting letter from the IMB to the Chief Medical Officer. It states "It is important to recognise that currently available clinical and non-clinical data relates solely to studies involving the H5N1 mock-up vaccines and these mock-up vaccines were stand-alone applications relating to 'new' vaccines and not necessarily developed in a similar manner to seasonal flu vaccines.


    Link

    That's going to be a pretty damaging letter to the HSEs defence of the cases against them. The public vaccination also doubled as the vaccine trial it seems. In fairness they handled it poorly.

    A fitting quote that I read lately "openness and clarity are the enemies of vaccine hesitancy. Non response and obfuscation are gifts to those who are ideologically apposed to vaccines and their use"


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    #1807
    dexter_morgan
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭dexter_morgan


    Self Spreading Vaccines

    If these ever become a reality, the anti vaxxers may not be able to avoid vaccination!


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    #1808
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    VicMackey1 wrote: »
    This is an interesting letter from the IMB to the Chief Medical Officer. It states "It is important to recognise that currently available clinical and non-clinical data relates solely to studies involving the H5N1 mock-up vaccines and these mock-up vaccines were stand-alone applications relating to 'new' vaccines and not necessarily developed in a similar manner to seasonal flu vaccines.


    Link

    As soon as I saw Clare Daly's name I automatically switched off. She's worse than the Regret and the other antivaxxers - she gives them credibility by bringing their nonsense to the Dail.


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    #1809
    VicMackey1
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭VicMackey1


    I don't particularly like Claire Daly myself. In fact, I hate most of what comes out of her mouth. It is the only place where I could find a copy of the letter between the IMB and the CMO. That letter is genuine and just because she posted it on her site is no reason to dismiss it.


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    #1810
    dexter_morgan
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭dexter_morgan


    Orion wrote: »
    As soon as I saw Clare Daly's name I automatically switched off. She's worse than the Regret and the other antivaxxers - she gives them credibility by bringing their nonsense to the Dail.

    You could at least try to read the letter before dismissing it entirely! It is stamped by the dept of health! Switching off automatically is just pure ignorance.


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    #1811
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    dexter_morgan wrote: »
    You could at least try to read the letter before dismissing it entirely! It is stamped by the dept of health! Switching off automatically is just pure ignorance.

    None so blind...


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    #1812
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    None so stupidly blind like the anti vaxxers.


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    #1813
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Graces7 wrote: »
    None so blind...

    The questions about your post don't disappear just because you wait and hope they'll be buried by other posts before you jump back in with another short snippy post.


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    #1814
    REXER
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Scorn is good sometimes. Family decisions that are *impactful of the rest of the population*, like the *decision* not to vaccinate, should be scorned. It's the epitome of selfishness to do otherwise.

    And there's skepticism (scientific analysis applied to claims), and 'facebook hun' skepticism (the lad down the pub knew a bloke whose first cousin.....) or, "Someone with seemingly legitimate credentials that actually is completely unqualified to say this, said blah which I really really want to believe"

    As for adverse reactions, you can get adverse reactions to bee stings. Is this a reason to exterminate any bees living nearby, cut down and pave any habitat they might have, and spray widely with neocontinoids. I'd actually like you to answer this question, Grace, as I know it hits close to home with you. Keeping and helping bees is good, but what about adverse reactions to bee stings?

    It seems to me that this would be a good reason to avoid bees as much as possible and then to also make sure that any medicines you expose yourself to don't have any links to bee sting venom! Oh and also don't listen to any propaganda that states bee stings won't harm you.

    What on earth ever happened to "First do no harm".


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    #1815
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    REXER wrote: »

    What on earth ever happened to "First do no harm".

    Telling yourself a doctor is trying to do you harm doesnt make it true.


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    #1816
    dexter_morgan
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭dexter_morgan


    REXER wrote: »

    What on earth ever happened to "First do no harm".

    It is not possible with any treatment to guarantee 100% that there will be no harm. It would be silly to avoid treatment because of this. Child goes to doctor with appendicitis. Doc can't operate because there is a tiny chance of complications. Doc can't give antibiotics because the child might have a negative reaction. Child dies. The same happens with non vaccination except it is the parents who are doing the killing.


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    #1817
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,877 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    dexter_morgan wrote: »
    Child dies. The same happens with non vaccination except it is the parents who are doing the killing.
    If the only person who died was the child it won't be so bad

    But what happens is the the child infects others and so the disease survives to infect future generations.

    Anyone who is seriously anti-vax rather than just a me feinner would happily take part in a program to eradicate a disease.


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    #1818
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    The questions about your post don't disappear just because you wait and hope they'll be buried by other posts before you jump back in with another short snippy post.

    Isn't what you're describing basically Soapboxing, which is supposed to be Banned and Illegal in these parts?


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    #1819
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Graces7 wrote: »
    All is not OK re the flu vaccine or others. There are adverse reactions. And they can be bad, worse than flu.

    "A TOTAL OF 102 people have died from flu between October 2017 and February 2018, according to figures from the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC)."


    I'm assuming you'll now be giving us cast-iron, copper-bottomed, tin-lidded figures for more than 102 deaths from "adverse reactions" in a similar period.

    Or maybe some reaction that's "worse than death", per some Gothic novel?


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    #1820
    dexter_morgan
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭dexter_morgan


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    "A TOTAL OF 102 people have died from flu between October 2017 and February 2018, according to figures from the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC)."


    I'm assuming you'll now be giving us cast-iron, copper-bottomed, tin-lidded figures for more than 102 deaths from "adverse reactions" in a similar period.

    Or maybe some reaction that's "worse than death", per some Gothic novel?

    There is a rare side effect of the flu vaccine that the evil scientists and doctors are not telling you about. Eternity in purgatory!


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    #1821
    enfant terrible
    Registered Users Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    "A TOTAL OF 102 people have died from flu between October 2017 and February 2018, according to figures from the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC)."


    I'm assuming you'll now be giving us cast-iron, copper-bottomed, tin-lidded figures for more than 102 deaths from "adverse reactions" in a similar period.

    Or maybe some reaction that's "worse than death", per some Gothic novel?

    Our workplace are offering free flu vaccines, would you get it if you are not in any of the at-risk groups?


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    #1822
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    enfant terrible wrote: »
    Our workplace are offering free flu vaccines, would you get it if you are not in any of the at-risk groups?

    Sure. (And I'm not, btw,)


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    #1823
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,072 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    REXER wrote: »
    It seems to me that this would be a good reason to avoid bees as much as possible and then to also make sure that any medicines you expose yourself to don't have any links to bee sting venom! Oh and also don't listen to any propaganda that states bee stings won't harm you.

    What on earth ever happened to "First do no harm".

    It's about 42/year dying due to stings (bees, wasps) in the US, from https://www.elsevier.com/about/press-releases/research-and-journals/number-of-people-killed-by-animals-each-year-in-the-us-remains-unchanged

    The questions were for Grace, who is of the OPINION that vaccines are bad because there might be bad reactions. I brought up bees as bee stings have bad reactions and asked whether society should take active measures (spraying, removing habitat) because of the potential bad reaction, just following through on the (cough) logical conclusion to Grace's fallacy about bad reactions to vaccines. Life is full of things that might have bad reactions, and we manage appropriately.


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    #1824
    Martina1991
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    What's the story with Regret.ie?

    It's hard to know if the so called testimonies on that page are real or fabricated.

    They have report by HPRA listing the adverse reactions from 01/01/2010 to 31/12/2017.
    But there are so many things listed as an "adverse reaction" its ridiculous and can all can be found in the general population anyway.

    Some of the reactions include sneezing, coughing, drooling, mood swings, apathy, disturbance in social behavior, headaches etc etc etc. It even lists genetic disorders. I mean how can you blame a genetic disorder on a vaccine?!

    Under "Research" they include:
    * A BT Young Scientist research project which was a survey of parental attitudes in the North-West towards the HPV Vaccine.
    * A youtube video that no longer exists
    * An account from a Danish mother describing her daughters reaction
    * Another youtube video by Dr. Suzanne Humphries (a homeopath)
    * An article from an american radio host........etc.......etc..........etc

    Why do people go against the wealth of scientific knowledge out there and believe the minority of unqualified voices that haven't a clue.


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    #1825
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    .

    They have report by HPRA listing the adverse reactions from 01/01/2010 to 31/12/2017.
    But there are so many things listed as an "adverse reaction" its ridiculous and can all can be found in the general population anyway.

    Some of the reactions include sneezing, coughing, drooling, mood swings, apathy, disturbance in social behavior, headaches etc etc etc. It even lists genetic disorders. I mean how can you blame a genetic disorder on a vaccine?!

    .

    Everything that happened to the person on the trial will be listed. At some stage "may be involved in commercial aircraft crash" will probably be listed in these long winded side effects when some passenger dies in an plane crash


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    #1826
    dexter_morgan
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭dexter_morgan


    Martina1991 wrote: »

    Why do people go against the wealth of scientific knowledge out there and believe the minority of unqualified voices that haven't a clue.


    Some of them just want to go against the general consensus to separate themselves from the majority. It gives them a superiority complex.

    Some of them are just idiots. It is much easier for an idiot to understand anecdotal evidence than empirical scientific evidence.

    Some have a problem with authority and don't like to be told what they should do!


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    #1827
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    What's the story with Regret.ie?

    It's hard to know if the so called testimonies on that page are real or fabricated.

    They have report by HPRA listing the adverse reactions from 01/01/2010 to 31/12/2017.
    But there are so many things listed as an "adverse reaction" its ridiculous and can all can be found in the general population anyway.

    Some of the reactions include sneezing, coughing, drooling, mood swings, apathy, disturbance in social behavior, headaches etc etc etc. It even lists genetic disorders. I mean how can you blame a genetic disorder on a vaccine?!

    Under "Research" they include:
    * A BT Young Scientist research project which was a survey of parental attitudes in the North-West towards the HPV Vaccine.
    * A youtube video that no longer exists
    * An account from a Danish mother describing her daughters reaction
    * Another youtube video by Dr. Suzanne Humphries (a homeopath)
    * An article from an american radio host........etc.......etc..........etc

    Why do people go against the wealth of scientific knowledge out there and believe the minority of unqualified voices that haven't a clue.

    Regret were founded by a well known antivaxxer Catherine Weitbrecht who's homeopath husband "treated" the girls in regret making upwards of €70k from them.

    Now led by another homeopath, antivaxxer Roma Rossborough who is part of the group Vaxxed - they support Wakefield's lies and brought his film to the Tivoli. Other notable members are Kiva Murphy - rabid antivaxxer - and Anna Cannon - abusive antivaxxer.

    They have ties to Sanevax - a US antivax site with strong links to evangelistic groups who preach abstinence to protect from HPV.

    They have refused to engage with the HSE and claim they have 450/550/650 (depends on the day) girls on suicide watch but have offered no proof of this.

    They have not provided any scientific or medical evidence for any of their claims. Ever.

    I'm not disputing that some girls who's parents have joined Regret are sick. I'm sure they are. But their most common illness is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which occurs at exactly the same rate in unvaccinated girls as in vaccinated.

    They fundraised 10s of 000s which has disappeared. They claimed to be a charity and are under investigation by the CRO.

    In short Regret are an unreliable source at best - frauds at worst.


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    #1828
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Orion wrote: »
    Regret were founded by a well known antivaxxer Catherine Weitbrecht who's homeopath husband "treated" the girls in regret making upwards of €70k from them.

    Now led by another homeopath, antivaxxer Roma Rossborough who is part of the group Vaxxed - they support Wakefield's lies and brought his film to the Tivoli. Other notable members are Kiva Murphy - rabid antivaxxer - and Anna Cannon - abusive antivaxxer.

    They have ties to Sanevax - a US antivax site with strong links to evangelistic groups who preach abstinence to protect from HPV.

    They have refused to engage with the HSE and claim they have 450/550/650 (depends on the day) girls on suicide watch but have offered no proof of this.

    They have not provided any scientific or medical evidence for any of their claims. Ever.

    I'm not disputing that some girls who's parents have joined Regret are sick. I'm sure they are. But their most common illness is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which occurs at exactly the same rate in unvaccinated girls as in vaccinated.

    They fundraised 10s of 000s which has disappeared. They claimed to be a charity and are under investigation by the CRO.

    In short Regret are an unreliable source at best - frauds at worst.

    This post is full of provable .. virulent factual inaccuraries

    really not worth the bothering any more. yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!


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    #1829
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Igotadose wrote: »
    It's about 42/year dying due to stings (bees, wasps) in the US, from https://www.elsevier.com/about/press-releases/research-and-journals/number-of-people-killed-by-animals-each-year-in-the-us-remains-unchanged

    The questions were for Grace, who is of the OPINION that vaccines are bad because there might be bad reactions. I brought up bees as bee stings have bad reactions and asked whether society should take active measures (spraying, removing habitat) because of the potential bad reaction, just following through on the (cough) logical conclusion to Grace's fallacy about bad reactions to vaccines. Life is full of things that might have bad reactions, and we manage appropriately.

    Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn....


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    #1830
    sullivlo
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    Graces7 wrote: »
    This post is full of provable .. virulent factual inaccuraries

    really not worth the bothering any more. yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!
    Can you please respond to the questions that I asked you previously, rather than trying to dispute others posts.

    You’re frankly ridiculous at this stage.


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    #1831
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Graces7 wrote: »
    This post is full of provable .. virulent factual inaccuraries

    really not worth the bothering any more. yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!

    Name one. Everything I posted is accurate.


This discussion has been closed.
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