Gay Cake Controversy!

Gunmonkey · 10-10-2018 12:11pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

In the Graun's fantasy world, cake can have a sexual orientation.
Cake can probably have a gender as well.

How dare you identify the it as a cake! Maybe it self identifies as a bi-crust pie or a trans-dough muffin you insensitive jerk!

Christy42 · 10-10-2018 12:14pm

Gunmonkey wrote: »

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

In the Graun's fantasy world, cake can have a sexual orientation.
Cake can probably have a gender as well.

How dare you identify the it as a cake! Maybe it self identifies as a bi-crust pie or a trans-dough muffin you insensitive jerk!

In a world where a bakery can identify as Christian I am sure we can have a female cake or bi-crust pie.

Peregrinus · 10-10-2018 12:24pm

Christy42 wrote: »

In a world where a bakery can identify as Christian I am sure we can have a female cake or bi-crust pie.

The individuals who owned and operated the bakery were sued in person.

dxhound2005 · 10-10-2018 12:25pm

NI law does not allow gay marriage. It was invidious of them to try to force a baker to supply a bespoke product advocating a change to the law. Let them change the law, and then every baker would have to supply cakes for gay and straight weddings.

Zubeneschamali · 10-10-2018 12:35pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Let them change the law, and then every baker would have to supply cakes for gay and straight weddings.

No, a cake with two little brides on top is clearly a message supporting gay marriage, and the Ashers now have carte blanche to refuse any message cake if they object to the message, nothing to do with the legality of the message.

So no more cakes in Irish (not that I'm prejudiced against Taigs, Unionists can't order cakes as gaeilge either), no cakes in any foreign language (not that I'm against immigrants), No cakes with mixed race couples on top (not that I am racially biased), no cakes with messages for Holy Communion or Confirmation (not that I hate Catholics, but my interpretation of the Bible says), no knacker cakes, in fact, feck off the lot of ye unless the message agrees with my narrow reading of the KJV bible.

Dyr · 10-10-2018 12:37pm

So the cake wasn't gay and internal affairs knew all along?

ittakestwo · 10-10-2018 12:38pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

NI law does not allow gay marriage. It was invidious of them to try to force a baker to supply a bespoke product advocating a change to the law. Let them change the law, and then every baker would have to supply cakes for gay and straight weddings.

They probably would have to supply cakes for gay marriages even if gay marriage is not legal in NI

But even if gay marriage was legal they still would not have to bake a cake saying "Support gay marriage"

MrMusician18 · 10-10-2018 12:42pm

NuMarvel wrote: »

Gee, no one's said anything like this in the thread before... :rolleyes:

This has all been done to death at this point. The long and the short of it is that four judges across two courts have found this to be discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. And they heard all the facts, not just the ones that made it into the press.

This very point was at the heart of the supreme Court ruling. Oh how foolish you look now.

suicide_circus · 10-10-2018 12:44pm

So, as many many people have pointed out since day one, the bakers here played the ball not the man. How did it even get this far? Original judgement was bizarre. Discrimination laws cover the person not the message.

gmisk · 10-10-2018 12:48pm

Bambi wrote: »

So the cake wasn't gay and internal affairs knew all along?

The cake was keyser soze?

Also people are missing the big point here.... Ashers cake isn't very nice...debbies delights (oh saucy) or French village bakery are excellent.. Ashers is a pretty run of the mill standard bakery

Ragnar Lothbrok · 10-10-2018 12:52pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, a cake with two little brides on top is clearly a message supporting gay marriage, and the Ashers now have carte blanche to refuse any message cake if they object to the message, nothing to do with the legality of the message.

So no more cakes in Irish (not that I'm prejudiced against Taigs, Unionists can't order cakes as gaeilge either), no cakes in any foreign language (not that I'm against immigrants), No cakes with mixed race couples on top (not that I am racially biased), no cakes with messages for Holy Communion or Confirmation (not that I hate Catholics, but my interpretation of the Bible says), no knacker cakes, in fact, feck off the lot of ye unless the message agrees with my narrow reading of the KJV bible.

I don't agree with the beliefs of the shop owner, but they should have the right to refuse to make a cake with a message they disagree with.

If I opened a cake shop, I would certainly refuse to bake a cake with a White Power, Neo-Nazi, Racist, etc slogan. I should have the right to refuse to make the cake based on it's message, not on the fact that the person ordering the cake was a Neo-Nazi or racist or whatever.

That's what this ruling has said, and in all fairness, it is simple common sense.

Mebuntu · 10-10-2018 12:55pm

enfant terrible wrote: »

How did the previous judges who rules on this case not see this obvious point.

They probably did but then they stopped to consider the consequences that would follow when the PC Brigade, Twitterati and other lunatics would get going afterwards. Much easier to pass the buck upstairs.

Penn · 10-10-2018 12:55pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

So, as many many people have pointed out since day one, the bakers here played the ball not the man. How did it even get this far? Original judgement was bizarre. Discrimination laws cover the person not the message.

'Indirect discrimination' - The law which says you mustn’t be discriminated against is called the Equality Act 2010. Discrimination which is against the Equality Act is unlawful. This means you can take action in the civil courts. Indirect discrimination is when there’s a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others. The Equality Act says it puts you at a particular disadvantage.

A cake, the message on which is in support of gay marriage, is more likely to be ordered by a gay person. As such it has a worse effect on a particular protected group than others.

I don't think we have that law here, but it is a UK law.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/indirect-discrimination/

I haven't read the ruling in this particular case, but from that same site:
The Equality Act says it’s not indirect discrimination if the person applying the practice, policy or rule, can show there’s a good enough reason for it. They would need to be able to prove this in court, if necessary. This is known in legal terms as objective justification.

I'm guessing that by showing their religious beliefs and the strength of same, they were able to demonstrate that as being a good reason for refusal.

suicide_circus · 10-10-2018 12:59pm

Penn wrote: »

'Indirect discrimination' - The law which says you mustn’t be discriminated against is called the Equality Act 2010. Discrimination which is against the Equality Act is unlawful. This means you can take action in the civil courts. Indirect discrimination is when there’s a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others. The Equality Act says it puts you at a particular disadvantage.

A cake, the message on which is in support of gay marriage, is more likely to be ordered by a gay person. As such it has a worse effect on a particular protected group than others.

I don't think we have that law here, but it is a UK law.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/indirect-discrimination/

I haven't read the ruling in this particular case, but from that same site:
The Equality Act says it’s not indirect discrimination if the person applying the practice, policy or rule, can show there’s a good enough reason for it. They would need to be able to prove this in court, if necessary. This is known in legal terms as objective justification.

I'm guessing that by showing their religious beliefs and the strength of same, they were able to demonstrate that as being a good reason for refusal.

Interesting. Dangerous Law. Luckily sense prevailed in this case.

Zubeneschamali · 10-10-2018 1:00pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

If I opened a cake shop, I would certainly refuse to bake a cake with a White Power, Neo-Nazi, Racist, etc slogan.

That was always legal, even before this ruling, since Nazis and racists are not protected by anti-discrimination legislation.

Zubeneschamali · 10-10-2018 1:06pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Dangerous Law.

Suppose a black guy comes into my shop and orders a cake with a little black groom and a white bride on top. When I see the order, I call him and say nope, not making that. He says "Oi! Racist discrimination!", and I say "No, a white customer cannot order a cake with a mixed race couple on it either, so I am not discriminating".

suicide_circus · 10-10-2018 1:06pm

I wouldn't bake a cake for a child genital mutilation ritual, or a sharia court opening party, or a Scientology centre opening party.

suicide_circus · 10-10-2018 1:09pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Suppose a black guy comes into my shop and orders a cake with a little black groom and a white bride on top. When I see the order, I call him and say nope, not making that. He says "Oi! Racist discrimination!", and I say "No, a white customer cannot order a cake with a mixed race couple on it either, so I am not discriminating".

terrible business model and i don't think you could convince the supreme court that opposition to interracial marriage was a sincerely held religious belief

donkeykong5 · 10-10-2018 1:15pm

Well done to ashers bakery. The horrific bullying over the last couple of years is over now. Am delighted you won the case against the attention seekers and pcbrigade snowflakes.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 10-10-2018 1:16pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That was always legal, even before this ruling, since Nazis and racists are not protected by anti-discrimination legislation.

OK, I think I see where there might be a difference in this instance.

Another scenario, so. A non-religious pro-life baker refuses to make a cake for a homosexual person who wants a pro-choice message on the cake.

The baker cannot claim that he is being forced to act against his religious beliefs, as he has none. The person ordering the cake cannot claim s/he is being discriminated against because the issue isn't about sexuality - the baker would also refuse to bake the cake for a heterosexual person.

Abortion was illegal until recently, so presumably the baker couldn't be forced to make the cake then. After the referendum allowing abortion, are you now saying the same baker should be forced to bake the cake?

I'm not sure myself anymore!

AllForIt · 10-10-2018 1:17pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

I wouldn't bake a cake for a child genital mutilation ritual, or a sharia court opening party, or a Scientology centre opening party.

So it's all down to your personal opinion and should not be regulated in law other than the law saying there is no rules when it comes to whatever strongly held opinion you have. Hmm.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 10-10-2018 1:18pm

Who in the name of God cake has to pay for it all? Both sides surely must have racked up insane amounts in legal bills.

KrustyUCC · 10-10-2018 1:19pm

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Well done to ashers bakery. The horrific bullying over the last couple of years is over now. Am delighted you won the case against the attention seekers and pcbrigade snowflakes.

Maybe not

The fella involved Gareth Lee is thinking of appealing to Europe

"Lee said he would be considering his options, which could involve appealing to the European court of human rights in Strasbourg."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/10/uk-supreme-court-backs-bakery-that-refused-to-make-gay-wedding-cake

Zubeneschamali · 10-10-2018 1:19pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

i don't think you could convince the supreme court that opposition to interracial marriage was a sincerely held religious belief

I don't have to bake a cake with a message I don't agree with. No-one said it had to be a sincerely held religious belief.

What if I just really dislike little Padraig O'Taig? I don't agree with the message that he should have a happy birthday, get out of my shop.

jobbridge4life · 10-10-2018 1:21pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

terrible business model and i don't think you could convince the supreme court that opposition to interracial marriage was a sincerely held religious belief

Why? Afterall racism has and continues to have a very strong religious dimension.

gmisk · 10-10-2018 1:22pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

I wouldn't bake a cake for a child genital mutilation ritual, or a sharia court opening party, or a Scientology centre opening party.

You are such an OP!

sightband · 10-10-2018 1:22pm

I’ve ignored this case all together so apologies if it has already been mentioned...but what exactly was the message on the cake or what was it supposed to look like? I think this is relevant as if it was as simple as “happy anniversary to Jim and Barry” then bake and ice cake and who gives a sh*t, but if it was a big sponge cake shaped like a pair of arse cheeks with a big veiny flute going up into it then fair enough, wouldn’t be too thrilled about getting that request either and refusing to do it should be at the bakers discretion.

gmisk · 10-10-2018 1:23pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I don't have to bake a cake with a message I don't agree with. No-one said it had to be a sincerely held religious belief.

What if I just really dislike little Padraig O'Taig? I don't agree with the message that he should have a happy birthday, get out of my shop.

Unicorns are real!

I am sorry no! I dont agree with that message on a cake

gifted · 10-10-2018 1:24pm

ittakestwo wrote: »

Dont think it's over just yet. Think this might finally end in Strasbourg.

There will be a film no doubt to about it in the future.

Becsuse of Brexit, Will strasburg be able to do anything considering northern Ireland will be out of Europe soon?

donkeykong5 · 10-10-2018 1:25pm

KrustyUCC wrote: »

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Well done to ashers bakery. The horrific bullying over the last couple of years is over now. Am delighted you won the case against the attention seekers and pcbrigade snowflakes.

Maybe not

The fella involved Gareth Lee is thinking of appealing to Europe

"Lee said he would be considering his options, which could involve appealing to the European court of human rights in Strasbourg."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/10/uk-supreme-court-backs-bakery-that-refused-to-make-gay-wedding-cake

Would love to know who is backing him and funding him in this witch hunt. !

Gay Cake Controversy!

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