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Gay Cake Controversy!

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    #3572
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 31,857 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Of course he didnt know :rolleyes: Because he said he didnt know it must be true. Just like the numerous similar cases in the US, e.g Colorado.

    Gay rights activist just happens to request a known christian bakery for a cake with a pro gay marriage slogan. And then takes them to court. M'kay.

    I hope he lost his balls.

    I'd say he just Googled Christian bakery and went for them...that seems much more plausible.
    Seriously lol.

    I doubt he lost anything the equality commission backed his case.


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    #3573
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 31,857 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Markcheese wrote: »
    But wasn't that in the ruling... Ashers couldn't discriminate against Mr lee, but they didn't have to include a message which was a against their beliefs.

    Was this just a simple cake order that spiraled out of control when each side went political and legal? (and people are still heaping more fuel on, with Arlene Foster congratulating ashers bakery), or was it more calculated by one side or the other, ("nothing can be proven anyway) .
    At least it was only a cake...
    Don't mention fuel around our Arlene... Touchy subject


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    #3574
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    will costs be awarded against the complainant?


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    #3575
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,240 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Hoboo wrote: »
    Of course he didnt know :rolleyes: Because he said he didnt know it must be true. Just like the numerous similar cases in the US, e.g Colorado.

    Gay rights activist just happens to request a known christian bakery for a cake with a pro gay marriage slogan. And then takes them to court. M'kay.

    I hope he lost his balls.

    Didn't they say that he had bought cakes there previously, and therefore they didn't refuse to serve him on the basis of his sexuality? As such, it's more likely that he simply went to the bakery he had bought cakes from previously, without knowing they would refuse to make this one (because how could anyone possibly identify how religious the owners of a non-religion-based business might be). Even Ashers own website barely mentions religion, except this small paragraph on their About page:
    Why Ashers? Well, contrary to popular opinion we are not called Mr & Mrs Asher. Our name comes from the Bible. Asher was a tribe of Israel who had many skilled bakers and created bread fit for a king.

    Fair enough if you disagree with the ruling etc, but you're ascribing motives to him that you have no basis for.


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    #3576
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »
    My argument is that a bakery (or any business really) should be able to decide if it makes a particular product or not. Religious views are only one possible reason for this (I'm a lifelong atheist, so that doesn't concern me directly).

    This particular case relates to deeply held religious beliefs, which I find frankly ridiculous, but I can appreciate and support their desire to stand by these beliefs.

    I would not however, support them if they banned non-heterosexual people from their shop entirely, as that is an entirely different matter.

    Perhaps a better example than the neo-nazi cake would be a Republican cake, "Support a United Ireland". As nationalists and unionists now have equality in the eyes of the law, and discrimination on such grounds is illegal, do you believe the bakers (who as Christian fundamentalists are probably unionist or loyalist) should be forced to bake such a cake? I certainly don't think they should (and I'm a Republican).

    Certainly wouldn't ask a loyalist bakery to bake a republican cake or vice versa, never know what you might find among the ingredients :D


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    #3577
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,486 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Was it that they weren't required to violate their own religious beliefs (protected group) or was the refusal legal as they refused the message (not a person or group) rather than the customer(protected group).

    If the second being a religiously operated business wouldn't matter.


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    #3578
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    will costs be awarded against the complainant?

    no costs afaik both sides sponsored by charitable organisations


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    #3579
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,486 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    no costs afaik both sides sponsored by charitable organisations

    The bakery was, I think it would have been the state for the other side.


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    #3580
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Certainly wouldn't ask a loyalist bakery to bake a republican cake or vice versa, never know what you might find among the ingredients :D
    If it was a regular cake they couldn't refuse. But if it was an eireann go bragh cake depicting king billy getting rogered by bobby sands I think they could refuse the order in good conscience


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    #3581
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 31,857 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Varik wrote: »
    The bakery was, I think it would have been the state for the other side.
    What charity I wonder?
    Is it a charity like the way the íona institute is a charity?


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    #3582
    Hoboo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    Penn wrote: »
    Even Ashers own website barely mentions religion, except this small paragraph on their About page:
    Why Ashers? Well, contrary to popular opinion we are not called Mr & Mrs Asher. Our name comes from the Bible. Asher was a tribe of Israel who had many skilled bakers and created bread fit for a king.

    Fair enough if you disagree with the ruling etc, but you're ascribing motives to him that you have no basis for.

    I agree with the ruling. US gay rights groups have done the same in the past. From the site it was quite clear they are a christian bakery. He is a prominent member of a gay rights group. Doesn't take much to make a very plausible link.


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    #3583
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    If the decision went against the bakery the whingers and "legal experts" here would accept the decision but now that it didn't just suck it up.


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    #3584
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Edgware wrote: »
    If the decision went against the bakery the whingers and "legal experts" here would accept the decision but now that it didn't just suck it up.

    seems to me most people here are agreeing with the verdict?

    Did I miss something?


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    #3585
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Hoboo wrote: »
    From the site it was quite clear they are a christian bakery. He is a prominent member of a gay rights group. Doesn't take much to make a very plausible link.

    From the judgment, section I The facts:

    He had previously bought cakes from Ashers shop in Royal Avenue, Belfast, but he was not personally known to the staff or to Mr and Mrs McArthur. He did not know anything about the McArthurs’ beliefs about marriage and neither they nor their staff knew of his sexual orientation.


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    #3586
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Let me concur with Fintan O'Toole writing on this case in the Irish Times on May 5th 2015
    "..free expression is a basic democratic value. It doesn’t just mean that, within reason, you can say what you want to say but also that you cannot be forced to say what you don’t want to say."

    Too right. And it's a disgrace that people have to go to the UK Supreme Court to have that basic common sense truth articulated and their position vindicated three and a half years later.

    And why oh why oh why has the same-sex marriage lobby got such an obsession with the confectionery industry? Ashers are not the only cake shop demonised in these islands for not getting fully with the program. There was another shop in Dublin that got into trouble too, but I forget the full details.

    I'll bet there are oodles of cake shops and bakeries staffed with people who would be only too pleased to bake the gayest cakes possible. Why pick on the one or two who would be uncomfortable with it?


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    #3587
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    I'll bet there are oodles of cake shops and bakeries staffed with people who would be only too pleased to bake the gayest cakes possible. Why pick on the one or two who would be uncomfortable with it?

    Because they are uncomfortable with it and people feel they shouldn't be.

    There's no fight or drama to be had with the ones that will happily put whatever slogan on your cake/tshirt/whatever.

    Where would the fun (read : publicity) be in that?


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    #3588
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Edgware wrote: »
    Ya. Another reason why the U.K. voted for Brexit. Sick of Europe calling the shots and telling them how run the country.

    The judge said it was against article 10 of The European Human Rights. So in away it was Europe calling shots on this one.


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    #3589
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    I'll bet there are oodles of cake shops and bakeries staffed with people who would be only too pleased to bake the gayest cakes possible. Why pick on the one or two who would be uncomfortable with it?

    Those coloured folks have their own restaurants and all, I hear they are very nice, why do they want to come into ours?


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    #3590
    bloodless_coup
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭bloodless_coup


    I definitely wouldn't be baking or eating a gay cake.


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    #3591
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Those coloured folks have their own restauants and all, I hear they are very nice, why do they want to come into ours?

    Do you truly believe that's comparable?


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    #3592
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    Excellent to see common sense trumped the need to pander to deliberately obtuse members of the LGBTQIABC+ community this time.


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    #3593
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    And why oh why oh why has the same-sex marriage lobby got such an obsession with the confectionery industry? Ashers are not the only cake shop demonised in these islands for not getting fully with the program. There was another shop in Dublin that got into trouble too, but I forget the full details.

    I think that was Daintree - a wedding stationery shop on Camden Street. The (former) owner was a die-hard Catholic, and refused to stock anything that 'promoted' same-sex marriage. I think he sold the business shortly afterwards, which was probably the right thing to do, considering the fact that he wasn't in a position to provide a proper service to his customers.


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    #3594
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    wexie wrote: »
    Do you truly believe that's comparable?

    That is exactly what some people are saying: that it is OK if some shops discriminate against gay people because some other shop will serve them.


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    #3595
    Shanotheslayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,191 ✭✭✭✭Shanotheslayer


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    That is exactly what some people are saying: that it is OK if some shops discriminate against gay people because some other shop will serve them.

    The shop didn't discriminate against gay people


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    #3596
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Shanotheslayer wrote: »
    The shop didn't discriminate against gay people

    Per the latest ruling and subject to the inevitable appeal to the European courts.


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    #3597
    Shanotheslayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,191 ✭✭✭✭Shanotheslayer


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Per the latest ruling and subject to the inevitable appeal to the European courts.

    ''Subject to the inevitable appeal''

    Get a grip. Accept the loss and quit your whinging. It's obvious it wasn't discriminating.


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    #3598
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    That is exactly what some people are saying: that it is OK if some shops discriminate against gay people because some other shop will serve them.

    That is absolutely NOT what I said. And the court made it clear that was not the issue.

    If you're so sure of the correctness of your position at least state the issue accurately.


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    #3599
    UrbanFret
    Registered Users Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭UrbanFret


    Good to see someone unwilling to bend over for the gay community.


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    #3600
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »
    My argument is that a bakery (or any business really) should be able to decide if it makes a particular product or not. Religious views are only one possible reason for this (I'm a lifelong atheist, so that doesn't concern me directly).
    This particular case relates to deeply held religious beliefs, which I find frankly ridiculous, but I can appreciate and support their desire to stand by these beliefs.
    I would not however, support them if they banned non-heterosexual people from their shop entirely, as that is an entirely different matter.
    Perhaps a better example than the neo-nazi cake would be a Republican cake, "Support a United Ireland". As nationalists and unionists now have equality in the eyes of the law, and discrimination on such grounds is illegal, do you believe the bakers (who as Christian fundamentalists are probably unionist or loyalist) should be forced to bake such a cake? I certainly don't think they should (and I'm a Republican).

    Yeah it's just that the Nazis have been brought up so often in this discussion as if instances of hate speach are somehow comparable or relevant - their not.

    Personally I believe religion should be left out of political, public and commercial interests. We have had enough of that type of shenanigans on the island of Ireland going back decades...

    As long as something doesn't break the law - getting up on high personal moral horses is of no help to anyone

    But then that's just me ...


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    #3601
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    wexie wrote: »
    Do you truly believe that's comparable?

    That is exactly what some people are saying: that it is OK if some shops discriminate against gay people because some other shop will serve them.

    I think a better comparison would be a restaurant that will happily serve black customers but won't let them put up a black power banner.

    And I'm okay with that to be honest. From what I understand the bakery would have happily supplied a cake, they just didn't agree with the message the customer wanted on the cake. I would imagine it would have been no different if I had wanted a cake that said 'god is a dick'


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