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NEW 2018 Assistant Principal Officer Competition

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    #482
    Aitor
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭Aitor


    Crunchymomma wrote: »
    I totally agree with you, don't know why I felt like I heard it mentioned or read it somewhere that they would shortlist after stage one..... Maybe it was in a dream!!

    I came in under the 2016 conpetition, and I never got the impression they ever shortlist based on the form. They may screen candidate forms prior to the interview, but it always seemed to me that they just shortlist based on test results. Could be wrong though.


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    #483
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    Stage 1 is the online tests with a caveat that you may be asked to do in person tests at a later stage.
    Stage 2 is shortlisting based on application form.

    Be interesting to see what approach they take.

    (From what ive read, there was no shortlisting last time)


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    #484
    CBCB
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭CBCB


    Crunchymomma wrote: »
    I totally agree with you, don't know why I felt like I heard it mentioned or read it somewhere that they would shortlist after stage one..... Maybe it was in a dream!!

    They definitely mentioned shortlisting on the initial notice and used it for recent HEO recruitment, where they hadn't previously. I think the logic is that it means people who just don't have the required experience won't make it to interview


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    #485
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    CBCB wrote: »
    I think the logic is that it means people who just don't have the required experience won't make it to interview


    In fairness to PAS they do learn and adapt - especially to deal with situations which have wasted a lot of time and effort

    Interviewing a large amount of people who are failing due to not having sufficient experience to meet criteria is a waste of everyone's time - including candidates

    Shortlisting makes sense for positions at management level


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    #486
    CBCB
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭CBCB


    Riskymove wrote: »
    In fairness to PAS they do learn and adapt - especially to deal with situations which have wasted a lot of time and effort

    Interviewing a large amount of people who are failing due to not having sufficient experience to meet criteria is a waste of everyone's time - including candidates

    Shortlisting makes sense for positions at management level

    Yep, I agree. It makes sense for AP positions.


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    #487
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    CBCB wrote: »
    They definitely mentioned shortlisting on the initial notice and used it for recent HEO recruitment, where they hadn't previously. I think the logic is that it means people who just don't have the required experience won't make it to interview

    When/how did they do it gor the HEO?
    I'd imagine itll be roughly the same approach.


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    #488
    CBCB
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭CBCB


    PhoenixParker wrote: »
    When/how did they do it gor the HEO?
    I'd imagine itll be roughly the same approach.

    They completed the online and supervised as far as I recall. Then the successful applicants were shortlisted based on the application forms submitted. I know a few people were knocked out based on the fact that they didn't have sufficient management experience.


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    #489
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    TaurenDruid wrote: »
    Can anyone remember from 2016 - did they use the same bank of questions in the supervised as the unsupervised?

    Exact same- much to my annoyance- there is a particular coal mine that I wished never existed out there somewhere..........


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    #490
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Riskymove wrote: »
    In fairness to PAS they do learn and adapt - especially to deal with situations which have wasted a lot of time and effort

    Interviewing a large amount of people who are failing due to not having sufficient experience to meet criteria is a waste of everyone's time - including candidates

    Shortlisting makes sense for positions at management level

    The cynic in me feels that a LOT more private sector people will be successful from this competition than the last one.


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    #491
    WAW
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭WAW


    Where does the AP role fit compared to the Administrative officer and Senior Executive Officer in the local authorities? To me it looks like HEO is somewhere between Senior Staff Officer and Administrative officer and AP is something between the Administrative officer and Senior Executive Officer. Better starting money and leave in the local authority anyway. They don't seem to recruit much though!


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    #492
    Maybenever
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭Maybenever


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    The cynic in me feels that a LOT more private sector people will be successful from this competition than the last one.


    They have a lot to offer. Coming from the private sector I'm surprised at the level of ability of some of the people at HEO level tbh and I think there are a shed load of people out there that could easily do an AP job. It obviously varies wildly but I wouldn't be "cynical", I would welcome the fresh outlook and increased competition. Always surround yourself with people better than you.....


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    #493
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    bobbysands81 wrote: »
    The cynic in me feels that a LOT more private sector people will be successful from this competition than the last one.

    they have to start applying first, the rate is very low


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    #494
    bravenewworld1
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭bravenewworld1


    Riskymove wrote: »
    they have to start applying first, the rate is very low

    How do you know? Regarding external applicant numbers that is....


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    #495
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    bravenewworld1 wrote: »
    How do you know? Regarding external applicant numbers that is....

    there were reports made after previous competitions. I think Unions published them


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    #496
    bravenewworld1
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭bravenewworld1


    Riskymove wrote: »
    there were reports made after previous competitions. I think Unions published them

    Thanks. Just curious as to why external applicants seem more attractive? Is it a culture shift within CS? As far as I can see anyone who gets through the application process successfully and does a good interview is in with an equally good chance. Or am I naive? I am an external candidate so am genuinely curious.


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    #497
    Subutai
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Subutai


    bravenewworld1 wrote: »
    Thanks. Just curious as to why external applicants seem more attractive? Is it a culture shift within CS? As far as I can see anyone who gets through the application process successfully and does a good interview is in with an equally good chance. Or am I naive? I am an external candidate so am genuinely curious.

    Some people have a perception that PAS would prefer to hire external candidates. Certainly the government would like to see more external candidates, which is why the policy decision was made to open up competitions at more levels to external candidates.

    I don't see that there is any evidence that PAS considers externals to be more attractive, that they would place a finger on the scales to bring more of them in, or that they would compromise their processes to preferentially hire externals. As far as I can see the focus has been on trying to advertise more to external candidates, with the presumption being that if you can get them to apply at all the battle is won.


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    #498
    llcolj
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭llcolj


    Crunchymomma wrote: »
    I totally agree with you, don't know why I felt like I heard it mentioned or read it somewhere that they would shortlist after stage one..... Maybe it was in a dream!!

    Page 4 of the info booklet says Stage 2 Shortlisting will take place in early to mid October.

    This is absent in the 2016 AP booklet.


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    #499
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Subutai wrote: »
    Some people have a perception that PAS would prefer to hire external candidates. Certainly the government would like to see more external candidates, which is why the policy decision was made to open up competitions at more levels to external candidates.

    I don't see that there is any evidence that PAS considers externals to be more attractive, that they would place a finger on the scales to bring more of them in, or that they would compromise their processes to preferentially hire externals. As far as I can see the focus has been on trying to advertise more to external candidates, with the presumption being that if you can get them to apply at all the battle is won.

    Apparently DPER lamented both the calibre and the quantity of external candidates last time around- and stated they were surprised and unhappy that more high calibre external candidates had not been successful in the competition.

    It would seem its DPER- rather than PAS- who have a higher opinion of external candidates- than internal candidates. That said- the bigger issue is at AP level- any reasonable candidate could expect significantly better recompense in the private sector (at other grades too- however, that's not for discussion here).

    DPER have it in their head that there is a premium associated with working in the public sector- and for this reason, they do not have to offer a competitive salary/package- however, at AP grade- where you often may not have flexible working opportunities- and you may be on call at all times- that premium may actually be a negative rather than a positive.......

    Different strokes for different folks?


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    #500
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    DPER and their notions!


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    #501
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    Maybenever wrote: »
    They have a lot to offer. Coming from the private sector I'm surprised at the level of ability of some of the people at HEO level tbh and I think there are a shed load of people out there that could easily do an AP job. It obviously varies wildly but I wouldn't be "cynical", I would welcome the fresh outlook and increased competition. Always surround yourself with people better than you.....

    I agree.

    I know that DPER are very disappointed with the amount of private sector people applying for AP roles therefore I’d be expecting that they’ll try and balance up the scales somehow.

    DPER want the best and brightest throughout the Civil Service but they are struggling to attract them and then hold onto them.


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    #502
    ThumbTaxed
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ThumbTaxed


    bravenewworld1 wrote: »
    Riskymove wrote: »
    there were reports made after previous competitions. I think Unions published them

    Thanks. Just curious as to why external applicants seem more attractive? Is it a culture shift within CS? As far as I can see anyone who gets through the application process successfully and does a good interview is in with an equally good chance. Or am I naive? I am an external candidate so am genuinely curious.

    Simple. External applicants are better, in general. Most CS people have minimal qualifications and a lesser work ethic.

    Obviously defensive people will disagree and point out the 1 exception, but..


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    #503
    bobbysands81
    Registered Users Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭bobbysands81


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    Simple. External applicants are better, in general. Most CS people have minimal qualifications and a lesser work ethic.

    Obviously defensive people will disagree and point out the 1 exception, but..

    Civil Servants are more likely to have a third level education and more likely to be a member of a professional body than a private sector worker.

    I love your posts!


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    #504
    bravenewworld1
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭bravenewworld1


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    Simple. External applicants are better, in general. Most CS people have minimal qualifications and a lesser work ethic.

    Obviously defensive people will disagree and point out the 1 exception, but..

    Haha! I only wish this were true. I might feel more confidant about the whole process. Unfortunately for me, and many other candidates coming from private sector, I suspect the calibre of candidates from within CS is exceptional. However an injection of new blood into any organisation is beneficial. It's what I tell myself anyway...


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    #505
    1100010110
    Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭1100010110


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »

    Obviously defensive people will disagree and point out the 1 exception, but..

    Are you the one TT, is it you that is the exception?


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    #506
    CBCB
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭CBCB


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    Simple. External applicants are better, in general. Most CS people have minimal qualifications and a lesser work ethic.

    Obviously defensive people will disagree and point out the 1 exception, but..

    Do you work in the Public Sector ? If so, you should consider another career avenue cause your negativity can only be bad for you and those surrounding you.


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    #507
    TaurenDruid
    Registered Users Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Apparently DPER lamented both the calibre and the quantity of external candidates last time around- and stated they were surprised and unhappy that more high calibre external candidates had not been successful in the competition.

    Why? I mean, they can't be oblivious to private sector norms - those norms include a substantially better remuneration package at the equivalent of AP level in the private sector. What are they expecting?!


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    #508
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    Simple. External applicants are better, in general. Most CS people have minimal qualifications and a lesser work ethic.

    Obviously defensive people will disagree and point out the 1 exception, but..

    Mod

    Thumbtaxed

    Don't post in this thread again


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    #509
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    TaurenDruid wrote: »
    Why? I mean, they can't be oblivious to private sector norms - those norms include a substantially better remuneration package at the equivalent of AP level in the private sector. What are they expecting?!

    There is an element of stubbornness in the manner in which they are unwilling to assess and consider this (and its not just at AP level). If they were to assess people objectively across the board- their fallback position- would be that the premium associated with working in the civil service or the public sector- has a cost associated with it- and while they are willing to put a price on it in some circumstances- they want their cake and to eat it too..........

    The fact of the matter is- from EO grade up- particularly in any role that involves a discipline or a specific skillset- staff are and continue to, be hemorrhaging from the public sector. For a significant cohort- flexible working conditions were dangled as an inducement to working in the civil service- however, you can now get selfsame conditions (which are a privilege, not a right) in the private sector.

    Look at the number of staff who are jumping ship across all grades- its a frightful waste of talent. Yet- even discussing it- is toxic- and immediately makes you the target of trolls.


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    #510
    duffman13
    Registered Users Posts: 8,946 ✭✭✭duffman13


    What would people say is an equivalent role to AP in the private sector? Middle management in most private sector companies would be in a similar ball park to the salary on offer especially if you take on board incremements. A loss of a bonus and possible health insurance would be the main area of concern for people making the jump to the public sector IMO


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    #511
    Addle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    I genuinely believe most people, especially newer recruits, work harder in the public sector than private.
    I think that's why it's not attracting external candidates.


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