Too many teachers in our schools are Irish nationals

daheff · 30-09-2018 1:48pm

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

JohnMc1 · 30-09-2018 2:23pm

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Govt tries to scrap that eventually. The current Govt is knee deep in Virtue Signalling mode.

10000maniacs · 30-09-2018 2:43pm

These things tend to happen when the country happens to be Ireland.

CrabRevolution · 30-09-2018 4:27pm

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

The Irish requirement has been there since the beginning of the state, it has nothing to do with unions or foreign teachers.

daheff · 01-10-2018 7:31am

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The Irish requirement has been there since the beginning of the state, it has nothing to do with unions or foreign teachers.

sure... but its STILL there. Is it really fair to expect kids to learn Irish-especially kids from foreign countries?

Cordell · 01-10-2018 7:36am

How is it not fair?

This non-problem will solve itself in time as some of the non-irish kids will grow up and some of them will choose to become teachers.

nullzero · 01-10-2018 7:45am

We need radical Imams teaching sharia law obviously.

s7ryf3925pivug · 01-10-2018 7:49am

Obscures the concerning issue of the lack of secular schools. Dont want my kid's time being wasted being indoctrinated.

Surely religion should be extra-curricular. Doing it in scool - then having to do homework to compensate - seems nonsensical and backward.

nullzero · 01-10-2018 8:15am

Cory Acidic Wasteland wrote: »

Obscures the concerning issue of the lack of secular schools. Dont want my kid's time being wasted being indoctrinated.

Surely religion ahould be extra-curricular. Doing it in scool - then having to do homework to compensate - seems nonsensical and backward.

I know what you mean but I had the indoctrination and it gave me an insight into the nonsensical nature of religion which hasn't really harmed me.

circadian · 01-10-2018 8:19am

jacksie66 wrote: »

If it was up to the people who came up with this study every school in Ireland would have an on site mosque, synagogue and standard uniforms would be phased out in favour of gender neutral, multicultural garments and Irish culture would be regarded as racist..

Catch yourself on.

evolving_doors · 01-10-2018 8:22am

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

Have you a source for that?

s7ryf3925pivug · 01-10-2018 9:14am

nullzero wrote: »

I know what you mean but I had the indoctrination and it gave me an insight into the nonsensical nature of religion which hasn't really harmed me.

Harm or not, it's a waste of time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2018 9:21am

Cory Acidic Wasteland wrote: »

Harm or not, it's a waste of time.

Same could be said of Irish. Or a lot of things that are compulsory after the leaving cert to be fair.

Anyway, as I said in the other thread, it's not about being Irish or Catholic, it's about being traditional. And people seem to think traditional is what kids need. I'd disagree in an increasingly modern and diverse world - not just country - but that's just me.

biko · 01-10-2018 9:47am

pearcider wrote: »

This is what happens when you fund sociology bs degrees. You get these “sky is blue” studies. All funded by the taxpayer of course. Two doctors. Doctors of what. Talking ****e is what.

I actually have a degree in Sociology
It is a very relevant subject but easily hijacked by lefties pushing their own agendas.
I was sucked in for a while too but managed to get out. However it gives me a clear understanding of their views and motives, I'm like a sect member that have been "de-programmed".

daheff · 01-10-2018 10:29am

evolving_doors wrote: »

Have you a source for that?

cmon now. Do you really think the unions would publish written evidence to this? They'd be dragged through the European courts and torn a new backdoor.

Like a lot of things in Ireland this is done on a nod & a wink basis.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-10-2018 10:44am

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

No. It’s an official language of the State.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-10-2018 10:45am

daheff wrote: »

sure... but its STILL there. Is it really fair to expect kids to learn Irish-especially kids from foreign countries?

Most could well be born here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2018 10:47am

daheff wrote: »

you know the Irish requirement is a union thing to stop the teaching profession being stuffed with cheaper teachers from overseas, right? keeping jobs for irish teachers etc etc!

otherwise Irish would have been taken off the curriculum years ago as a mandatory subject.

daheff wrote: »

cmon now. Do you really think the unions would publish written evidence to this? They'd be dragged through the European courts and torn a new backdoor.

Like a lot of things in Ireland this is done on a nod & a wink basis.

You know the Earth is flat, right? Of course there's no written evidence for this - it's all done on a nod and a wink basis...

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-10-2018 10:49am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd disagree in an increasingly modern and diverse world -not just country - but that's just me.

The world is increasing in modernity at the same rate as it ever was - one second per second, one hour per hour, one year per year.

It’s not increasing in diversity at all. In fact it’s losing diversity in the very subject we are talking about. Languages. If you want a diverse world of languages then minority languages on a worldwide basis should be protected.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2018 10:49am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No. It’s an official language of the State.

Needlessly limiting and classic inside-the-box thinking. No reason why Irish couldn't be thought as a specialist subject by specialist trained teachers. The students who don't want to do Irish benefit, the students who do want to do Irish benefit, the language benefits.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 01-10-2018 10:51am

RayCun wrote: »

Why is leaving cert honours Irish necessary to teach primary school children?

Its probably in our ridiculously outdated and antiquated constitution.

Why should there be non-Irish teachers in our schools anyway? Emigrants came here for work and family reasons, this is Ireland, did they expect that their children would be taught by teachers from their own countries?

I see no reason why there should be an increase in non-national primary school teachers in Ireland...at the same time I see no reason why non Irish people shouldn't get jobs as primary school teachers if they have the necessary qualifications but I don't think its something that should be driven to any degree. It most likely will happen slowly and gradually as immigrant children go through the education system and get the necessary qualifications.

One thing that I would insist on and would probably be a requirement anyway is a broad and clear ability to speak English in a neutral or near neutral accent and in my experience many non irish people still do not have that ability.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-10-2018 10:54am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Needlessly limiting and classic inside-the-box thinking. No reason why Irish couldn't be thought as a specialist subject by specialist trained teachers. The students who don't want to do Irish benefit, the students who do want to do Irish benefit, the language benefits.

As someone who spouts utter cliches, as I pointed out above, I wouldn’t talk too much about in the box or outside the box thinking (And of course that’s another cliche.)

As an official language it’s probably unconstitutional to treat it differently to English - the other official language. Which means it would probably be unconstitutional if English were obligatory and Irish were not obligatory. Maybe both could be non-obligatory.

To change that, change the constitution. I’ve never seen any political demand for that outside the internet.

nullzero · 01-10-2018 10:54am

Cory Acidic Wasteland wrote: »

Harm or not, it's a waste of time.

Religion is prevalent all over the world and while teaching a Catholic ethos may be outdated children should at least be aware of religious beliefs.
Your attitude may suit your world view and may be populist but believe it or not there is a whole world outside of "right on" "progressive" Ireland and children could do with learning about it, or should they be learning Cantonese and German?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-10-2018 10:58am

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Its probably in our ridiculously outdated and antiquated constitution.

You should petition to remove Irish from the constitution as an official language. No point just posting here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2018 11:03am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The world is increasing in modernity at the same rate as it ever was - one second per second, one hour per hour, one year per year.

It’s not increasing in diversity at all. In fact it’s losing diversity in the very subject we are talking about. Languages. If you want a diverse world of languages then minority languages on a worldwide basis should be protected.

In your first sentence, it appears that you're saying we're modnerising exponentially, which was my point, so we agree there.

Secondly part, you're STILL thinking inside the box. I never said anything about diversity of languages (nor do I accept your point: Irish is in no danger of dying out now, nor would it be with my idea) - nor are you portraying how exactly we're losing diversity by staying traditional (surely the more variety open to a student the more diverse their education will be?).

FYI - just because you don't like the phrase "inside-the-box thinking", does not mean it's a cliche; and I'd have no problem with a constitutional change if it was voted for via referendum.

daheff · 01-10-2018 12:05pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You know the Earth is flat, right? Of course there's no written evidence for this - it's all done on a nod and a wink basis...

Go away out of that. Its a donut. See below pictorial evidence from the Flat Earth Thread debunking your claim

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2018 12:30pm

daheff wrote: »

Go away out of that. Its a donut. See below pictorial evidence from the Flat Earth Thread debunking your claim

I accept your theory and honest research, but I really think we'd notice if it had a bite taken out of it...

(And besides the philosopher in question, Homer, referred to a donut shaped universe, not planet!)

Franz Von Peppercorn · 01-10-2018 12:38pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In your first sentence, it appears that you're saying we're modnerising exponentially, which was my point, so we agree there.

No, I’m saying that we are heading into modernity at the same pace as ever. One year per year.

Secondly part, you're STILL thinking inside the box. I never said anything about diversity of languages (nor do I accept your point: Irish is in no danger of dying out now, nor would it be with my idea) - nor are you portraying how exactly we're losing diversity by staying traditional (surely the more variety open to a student the more diverse their education will be?).

I was responding to your point about an “increasingly diverse” world. The world isn’t getting more diverse but less diverse. The loss of languages would be indicative of that. Amongst other things.

FYI - just because you don't like the phrase "inside-the-box thinking", does not mean it's a cliche;

It’s a total cliche and one, moreover, generally used by people who promote largely banal ideas.

and I'd have no problem with a constitutional change if it was voted for via referendum.

There is literally no other way. Would you campaign and expect to win on this referendum? If so get cracking.

All of this is in response to me pointing out to a poster who opined that teachers used the teaching of Irish as job security that in fact it’s a constitutional issue. This is merely a statement of fact.

From that you started talking in cliches and excitedly about boxes. Which, apparently, you are outside and I am in.

s7ryf3925pivug · 01-10-2018 1:21pm

nullzero wrote: »

Religion is prevalent all over the world and while teaching a Catholic ethos may be outdated children should at least be aware of religious beliefs.
Your attitude may suit your world view and may be populist but believe it or not there is a whole world outside of "right on" "progressive" Ireland and children could do with learning about it, or should they be learning Cantonese and German?

People like to argue against imaginary comments on this site. It's odd. I wasn't commenting about learning about religions in an academic manner. I was commenting about indoctrination into belief systems in schools. This generally includes teaching things literally which are known to be false, like that the world was created in six days, or that noah's ark was a historic event. It also takes up far too much time. Second class is sometimes called communion year because it takes up so much class time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2018 1:45pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No, I’m saying that we are heading into modernity at the same pace as ever. One year per year.

I was responding to your point about an “increasingly diverse” world. The world isn’t getting more diverse but less diverse. The loss of languages would be indicative of that. Amongst other things.

It’s a total cliche and one, moreover, generally used by people who promote largely banal ideas.

There is literally no other way. Would you campaign and expect to win on this referendum? If so get cracking.

All of this is in response to me pointing out to a poster who opined that teachers used the teaching of Irish as job security that in fact it’s a constitutional issue. This is merely a statement of fact.

From that you started talking in cliches and excitedly about boxes. Which, apparently, you are outside and I am in.

Well, I can change the wording if you like, but the essence is the same: you haven't actually supported the idea of traditional education or listed it's presumed benefits. You've just decided it's what we have and what we use, therefore it's best. So - restrictive thinking, repeated thinking, confined thinking, thinking inside the box, pick one. Same deal.

Nor am I limiting my argument to language. That's you. I don't mind second languages - in fact I'd encourage it - but the idea that the second language MUST be Irish, is again confined and limiting.

We're talking teaching: If you have a young, talented person who is good at engaging and inspiring kids, but doesn't speak Irish or doesn't come from Ireland or isn't Catholic - then why should he or she be automatically eliminated form the field? This, to me, is just plain daft. The idea that a teacher must speak a certain language, or have a certain background or believe a certain religion is most certainly confined / limited / inside-the-box thinking.

But as the world is modernising - we agree on that, even if we disagree with the rate - then how will traditional teaching methods and subjects - like religion or Irish - prepare children for a changing world?

Finally, thanks for the political lesson, but I know how the constitution gets changed. I lived in Ireland for over 30 years, but then left, so no - I won't be campaigning. There's an old saying: 'if you keep doing what you're already doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got."

Too many teachers in our schools are Irish nationals

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