Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Options
1…8788909293…308

Comments

  • Options
    #2672
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Alcohol is just one of those things that people will buy regardless of the cost.
    Went to a gig the other night and it cost 13 euro for 2 pints. Myself and my friend still had 4 each.
    If the price goes up in supermarkets, I'll still buy as much as normal and just make cuts elsewhere.

    The price of cigarettes went up a lot in recent years. People just switched to Vaping and bringing back large volumes of smokes from holidays.
    The black market also took off.

    Contraband tobacco is one of the most lucrative rackets in the country at the moment.


    A pure goldmine,.


  • Options
    #2673
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    listermint wrote: »
    its 100% is, you should really chat to alcoholics, or drug users.

    Price has no bearing on consumption they will drink or take drugs regardless of the cost.

    You clearly dont understand what it means.

    It 100% isn't and you're moving the goalposts.

    Young drinkers are very much influenced by price - maybe you should chat to a few.


  • Options
    #2674
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Your problem is you've been lead to believe that €20 for a slab of beer is 'normal'.

    It's not.

    It's an artificially cheap price designed to get people into the supermarkets and buying their other products. It has a damaging effect on society and opens up alcohol availability to the young - very easy for a couple of 14 year old lads to scrape together €10 each.

    For about E80 I can produce 40 pints of lager at home.

    For huge brewers the cost per pint brewed is well less that E1, probably around 25-30c. E20 for a slab of beer is expensive compared to the cost of brewing, canning and transporting it en masse, as seen by prices in other, less nanny-state, countries.


  • Options
    #2675
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,408 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    The black market also took off.
    Contraband tobacco is one of the most lucrative rackets in the country at the moment.
    A pure goldmine,.

    This is already happening... €165,000 in smuggled beer seized at Dublin Port.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/alcohol-dublin-port-4258341-Sep2018/

    I wonder what their success rate is at detection, 10%?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Options
    #2676
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    If they're already broke yet finding money for drink it suggests the price of alcohol is inelastic.

    There's no evidence that moderate consumption of alcohol leads to social or health issues.

    So you're talking about people drinking to excess of which alcoholics must be considered.

    It's not an extreme case - the laws are being brought in for the minority which abuses alcohol rather than just to annoy the responsible majority.

    If someone is going out getting totally drunk then clamp down on that behaviour which already breaks multiple laws that we already have on the books and to which people have no objections.

    This is the action of a weak pathetic state who is incapable of dealing with actual law breakers and instead punishes the law abiding.

    The definition of an alcoholic depends on who you talk to - just like binge drinking.

    Go onto google there and find stats - more than half of 18-75 year old drinkers were classified as harmful drinkers - that’s over a million people.

    The thing is you’ll say your not a harmful drinking based on your definition but the health experts say different


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2677
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    It 100% isn't and you're moving the goalposts.

    Young drinkers are very much influenced by price - maybe you should chat to a few.

    They are in their bollocks.

    If it's any thing like it was when I was growing up, a teenager who wanted to get langers, but might not necessarily had the funds would end up either "acquiring" the funds (their mams purse, or dad's jeans), robbed the booze from a cabinet in the house, or do without other stuff (chipper money or a taxi fare).


  • Options
    #2678
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,408 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Trying to reduce underage drinking with price increases is like trying to reduce drink driving with price increases instead of putting Gardai out there to enforce the law.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Options
    #2679
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,408 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    The definition of an alcoholic depends on who you talk to - just like binge drinking.
    Go onto google there and find stats - more than half of 18-75 year old drinkers were classified as harmful drinkers - that’s over a million people.
    The thing is you’ll say your not a harmful drinking based on your definition but the health experts say different

    Why is the definition of harmful drinking different between Ireland, France and Spain if it's based on real science? Is an Irishman's body that different to a Frenchman's body?
    If the definition of harmful drinking depends on who you are talking to, it sounds like an unreliable definition.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Options
    #2680
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    This is why the minimum pricing is a great thing. Whether it doesnt affect pubs or not, whether the discounters lose sales, or whether more profit is channelled to the producers. The bottom line is average higher price. Producing reduced consumption. An unalloyed good thing. Nobody can seriously be against this initiative.

    You can be, if you're oppposed to social engineering. I don't believe that "reduced consumption" is "a good thing" unless people reduce their consumption purely, completely and only by choice. No amount of coercion whatsoever is acceptable to me, as a basic principle of social liberalism. The government should not be attempting to mould how people choose to live their lives by restricting their freedom to live their lives as they see fit.


  • Options
    #2681
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Trying to reduce underage drinking with price increases is like trying to reduce drink driving with price increases instead of putting Gardai out there to enforce the law.

    And there is where we differ.

    I would say the way to reduce drink driving is for people to be educated to cop the f**k on. It’s not the Gardai’s responsibility to stop them it’s their responsibility to arrest them if they offend.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2682
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    It's not.

    Alcohol is ineleastic. But people seem to think that means demand doesnt change with price. Not the case. Being inelastic means that demand versus price has a slope lower than 1. i.e. that a given % increase in price will prompt a lower than that % reduction in demand. Not that demand stays the same. The price inelasticity of alcohol is generally in the range 0.5. Or, a 20% increase in price will prompt a 10% reduction in demand.
    Increasing the price of alcohol reduces consumption. This is indisputable.


  • Options
    #2683
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    joe40 wrote: »
    If you're not drinking to excess the extra price will be minimal.
    Maybe I'm wrong but for arguments sake 8 x 500ml cans of beer would be a good nights drinking for me. By official standards well into excess territory but even to keep things in the real world, 8 pints (a gallon of beer) would be a good drink but common enough.
    How would the minimum pricing affect this price. Currently 8 cans of lager will cost about 13 euro, how much will this go up by. (genuine question by the way, I don't know)

    It doesn't matter if you are drinking to excess or having a can a night everything in off licences /supermarket under the threshold will go up

    Lets take your example of 8 cans = €13

    Take 2 different products Carlsberg + Bulmers

    Carlsberg was 8 for €13

    Under MUP now €13.57

    Bulmers now €14.20

    Now lets take something like Perlenbache in Lidl

    Now 1.05 * 8 = 8.40

    Under MUP €15.15

    Almost doubled

    The exact same product in Spain is €2.80 for your 8 cans

    441% dearer here under MUP for exactly the same product

    We already have some of the most expensive alcohol in Europe. This will only make things worse for everybody


  • Options
    #2684
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    joe40 wrote: »
    Currently 8 cans of lager will cost about 13 euro, how much will this go up by. (genuine question by the way, I don't know)

    That's where you're wrong. 8 cans of decent beer, say Perlenbacher, will on occasion cost as little as €7.30 in Lidl. 12 cans of bog-standard beer (Galahad) will cost the same, again in Lidl. So for those already on a tight budget who avail of these discounted prices, this will be a huge difference.


  • Options
    #2685
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    They are in their bollocks.

    If it's any thing like it was when I was growing up, a teenager who wanted to get langers, but might not necessarily had the funds would end up either "acquiring" the funds (their mams purse, or dad's jeans), robbed the booze from a cabinet in the house, or do without other stuff (chipper money or a taxi fare).

    You're very misguided if you believe a higher price won't have any effect on teenage drinking habits.


  • Options
    #2686
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    Why pick the extreme case?
    Alcoholics wont but students who can’t afford drink wil be affected - if I see a bottle of wine is 8€ I might buy it if same bottle is 18€ I probably won’t.

    Given how so many people on threads complaint about being broke cause of high rents - they won’t have money to buy drink which in turn will mean less alcoholic issues whether these are social or health wise.

    And students are consenting adults, so they should be allowed in principle to get as sh!tfaced as they choose in the privacy of their own homes.


  • Options
    #2687
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    You're very misguided if you believe a higher price won't have any effect on teenage drinking habits.

    You're very misguided if you think this is anything other than an effort to prop up the pubs.


  • Options
    #2688
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Alcohol is just one of those things that people will buy regardless of the cost.
    Went to a gig the other night and it cost 13 euro for 2 pints. Myself and my friend still had 4 each.
    If the price goes up in supermarkets, I'll still buy as much as normal and just make cuts elsewhere.

    The price of cigarettes went up a lot in recent years. People just switched to Vaping and bringing back large volumes of smokes from holidays.

    They will buy less of it.
    You might. They overall consumer market will not - they will buy less.
    Education and price increases have reduced the prevalence of smokers. People are vaping because they wished they could give up tobacco and not vape, but cannot. And chose vaping as the lesser evil. Like alcoholics, those unable to give up smoking and so bringing them back from holidays are not really the consideration - they are already lost, and, literally dying off. The price increases are deterring people from taking it up. Improving their lives.


  • Options
    #2689
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,266 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    They will buy less of it.
    You might. They overall consumer market will not - they will buy less.
    Education and price increases have reduced the prevalence of smokers. People are vaping because they wished they could give up tobacco and not vape, but cannot. And chose vaping as the lesser evil. Like alcoholics, those unable to give up smoking and so bringing them back from holidays are not really the consideration - they are already lost, and, literally dying off. The price increases are deterring people from taking it up. Improving their lives.


    they are in their hole. I assume you have some actual evidence to back that up?


  • Options
    #2690
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    They will buy less of it.
    You might. They overall consumer market will not - they will buy less.
    Education and price increases have reduced the prevalence of smokers. People are vaping because they wished they could give up tobacco and not vape, but cannot. And chose vaping as the lesser evil. Like alcoholics, those unable to give up smoking and so bringing them back from holidays are not really the consideration - they are already lost, and, literally dying off. The price increases are deterring people from taking it up. Improving their lives.

    Smoking has a definite effect on anyone else who happens to be nearby inhaling it. Alcohol has a possible effect on others, if the drinker gets aggro or clumsily damages something. Huge difference. A possible effect is not a good enough reason to restrict individual liberty. And if smoking only caused disease in the smoker and not in passive smokers, I for one would be wholly and 100% opposed to attempting to control peoples' smoking behaviour by hitting their wallets.


  • Options
    #2691
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,780 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Alcohol is ineleastic. But people seem to think that means demand doesnt change with price. Not the case. Being inelastic means that demand versus price has a slope lower than 1. i.e. that a given % increase in price will prompt a lower than that % reduction in demand. Not that demand stays the same. The price inelasticity of alcohol is generally in the range 0.5. Or, a 20% increase in price will prompt a 10% reduction in demand.
    Increasing the price of alcohol reduces consumption. This is indisputable.

    Can you give us some significant backing to that research because it counters with research that is extensive in australia Which states
    and a simultaneous
    10% increase in the minimum prices of all types
    reduced total consumption by 3.4%

    So you are vastly inflating your figures to reach a conclusion, By vastly i mean making them up.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2692
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    This is why the minimum pricing is a great thing. Whether it doesnt affect pubs or not, whether the discounters lose sales, or whether more profit is channelled to the producers. The bottom line is average higher price. Producing reduced consumption. An unalloyed good thing. Nobody can seriously be against this initiative.

    You can be, if you're oppposed to social engineering. I don't believe that "reduced consumption" is "a good thing" unless people reduce their consumption purely, completely and only by choice. No amount of coercion whatsoever is acceptable to me, as a basic principle of social liberalism. The government should not be attempting to mould how people choose to live their lives by restricting their freedom to live their lives as they see fit.
    Interesting point, but for me the first time a group of early primates lived together as a group and co-operated according to some hierarchy that was social engineering. The idea of complete freedom in any sort of society is a myth. Governments do have a role in health promotion since dealing with ill health affects society.


  • Options
    #2693
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,780 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    You're very misguided if you believe a higher price won't have any effect on teenage drinking habits.

    Are these the same teens that are now drinking less than their compatriots in Europe?

    those teenagers?


    Make a point will you but keep it factual.


  • Options
    #2694
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    You're very misguided if you believe a higher price won't have any effect on teenage drinking habits.

    You'd have to wonder why the govt haven't legalised heroin and priced the junkies out of the market?

    They could rid the country of the skag scourge in a few years.....(Assuming your plan is fool proof and price is a deterrent ):cool:


  • Options
    #2695
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    joe40 wrote: »
    Interesting point, but for me the first time a group of early primates lived together as a group and co-operated according to some hierarchy that was social engineering. The idea of complete freedom in any sort of society is a myth. Governments do have a role in health promotion since dealing with ill health affects society.

    I just don't agree. People should be free to engage in escapism using whichever euphoriant they're personally attracted to, be it ecstasy, amphetamine, alcohol, marijuana, etc. For some people, for various reasons, the pursuit of happiness is far more difficult without help from the aforementioned substances.

    The idea of complete freedom in private, alone, with nobody involved except one's self is a fairly fundamental philosophical concept which is supported by many people, not just something I pulled out of thin air. Complete, total, and unfettered control and ownership over one's own body, and the decisions which affect it while affecting nobody else's.


  • Options
    #2696
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Well, look at the plastic bag tax. There were cried from retailers, what were the pensioners going to do, what if I just popped into a shop.

    That this was effectively another tax and no point since China polluted way more

    People didn't need to use these bags, they just took them because they were convenient and 'free'. Shops were happy to have people carrying bags with their logo on them, cheap advertising (Now I often come out of Dunnes with shopping in a Lidl reusable bag, or out of a Lidl with a Dunnes bag!)

    The reason to reduce their use was litter, not air pollution.

    joe40 wrote: »
    The prices associated with drinking in pubs including taxi etc is very high that is why pubs are closing down all over the place.

    That's only one reason among many. Drink-driving enforcement and a change in lifestyles being others. Pubs used to be pretty much the only social outlet for many people apart from Sunday mass. This has changed. If you wanted to see a film you used to have to go to a cinema, maybe a drink in the pub beforehand and a couple after. Now you can sit and relax and watch on the big screen at home.

    Also pubs are not "closing down all over the place". The odd badly run pub or one with landlord issues will shut down in Dublin. It either reopens later, or the licence moves somewhere else and a new pub opens. With licences transferring out of rural areas, the numbers of pubs in the cities is going up. The reason rural pubs are closing down is because the young people aren't there, the 30/40somethings with kids can't afford it, and the 70something oulfellas who would sit in a pub all day drinking are dying off.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #2697
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Increasing the price of alcohol reduces consumption. This is indisputable.

    When I was younger, I had very little money for drink. But I still found a way. Sometimes I wouldn't buy lunch during the week and save the money. We would walk home even if it was unsafe to ensure we had enough for our drink.
    I even sold DVD's / CD to make some extra funds at times.
    We knew every pub that drinks promotions on and what nights they were on.

    We just wanted a few drinks, and we always found a way to get them.


  • Options
    #2698
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    That's where you're wrong. 8 cans of decent beer, say Perlenbacher, will on occasion cost as little as €7.30 in Lidl. 12 cans of bog-standard beer (Galahad) will cost the same, again in Lidl. So for those already on a tight budget who avail of these discounted prices, this will be a huge difference.
    Paint stripper would be a worthy substitute for Galahad.

    Christ it's awful. They were selling 12 cans of it for around 8 quid not too long ago in my Aldi.


    Still wouldn't touch it, lol.


  • Options
    #2699
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    listermint wrote: »
    Can you give us some significant backing to that research

    I can. There are very many reputable studies that confirm the effect. Variances between countries, income bands, types of alcohol etc, but the overall picture is very consistent.

    http://www.ias.org.uk/Alcohol-knowledge-centre/Price/Factsheets/How-does-the-price-of-alcohol-affect-consumption.aspx

    https://blog.euromonitor.com/2014/08/price-elasticities-in-alcoholic-drinks.html

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/566785/demand-price-elasticity-for-selected-alcoholic-drinks-worldwide/


  • Options
    #2700
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,247 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    You're very misguided if you think this is anything other than an effort to prop up the pubs.

    Why would the pubs need propping up if the price is not effecting consumption levels?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2701
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Why would the pubs need propping up if the price is not effecting consumption levels?

    Is that a serious question?


Advertisement