Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

ohnonotgmail · 28-09-2018 02:26PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Your problem is you've been lead to believe that €20 for a slab of beer is 'normal'.

It's not.

It's an artificially cheap price designed to get people into the supermarkets and buying their other products. It has a damaging effect on society and opens up alcohol availability to the young - very easy for a couple of 14 year old lads to scrape together €10 each.

It is not artificially cheap. It is artificially expensive. The same alcohol is much cheaper in other countries. This change will have **** all difference on the damaging effects of alcohol on society.

facehugger99 · 28-09-2018 02:28PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

It's every bit as normal as the artificially inflated prices charged in pubs.

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

As has been pointed out several times already, underage drinking is illegal and an entirely separate problem.

This measure will have a positive effect on it. It doesn't rule out other strategies being applied in conjunction with minimum pricing.

listermint · 28-09-2018 02:28PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Your problem is you've been lead to believe that €20 for a slab of beer is 'normal'.

It's not.

It's an artificially cheap price designed to get people into the supermarkets and buying their other products. It has a damaging effect on society and opens up alcohol availability to the young - very easy for a couple of 14 year old lads to scrape together €10 each.

You literally do not understand alcohol prices if that is what you believe.

Do you even comprehend the makeup of that final customer facing price?

Doubt it.

ohnonotgmail · 28-09-2018 02:29PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

It's every bit as normal as the artificially inflated prices charged in pubs.

This measure will have a positive effect on it. It doesn't rule out other strategies being applied in conjunction with minimum pricing.

what are you basing that on?

facehugger99 · 28-09-2018 02:29PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is not artificially cheap. It is artificially expensive. The same alcohol is much cheaper in other countries. This change will have **** all difference on the damaging effects of alcohol on society.

It will have a very positive influence - once it's introduced it can be increased to really curb consumption levels.

ohnonotgmail · 28-09-2018 02:30PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

It will have a very positive influence - once it's introduced it can be increased to really curb consumption levels.

demand for alcohol is price inelastic. Do you understand what that means?

The Rape of Lucretia · 28-09-2018 02:39PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Alcoholics are just going to sacrifice other things to afford drink. People who just like a drink or two are going to have to pay more for no reason other than to prop up the pub industry. It's complete nonsense.

The benefit is not really to alcoholics, it is to the future non-alcoholics.
The people who like a drink or two choosing, whether old enough to drink today or those who have yet to start, who will have a drink and not two. Or none at all.
That is when everyone becomes a winner.

ohnonotgmail · 28-09-2018 02:40PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The benefit is not really to alcoholics, it is to the future non-alcoholics.
The people who like a drink or two choosing, whether old enough to drink today or those who have yet to start, who will have a drink and not two. Or none at all.
That is when everyone becomes a winner.

any chance of getting that sentence in english?

The Rape of Lucretia · 28-09-2018 02:43PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

demand for alcohol is price inelastic. Do you understand what that means?

Do you ?

The Rape of Lucretia · 28-09-2018 02:45PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

any chance of getting that sentence in english?

Certainly :

The people who like a drink or two choosing, whether old enough to drink today or those who have yet to start, to have a drink and not two.

facehugger99 · 28-09-2018 02:46PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

demand for alcohol is price inelastic. Do you understand what that means?

It's not.

joe40 · 28-09-2018 02:47PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

facehugger99 wrote: »

It will have a very positive influence - once it's introduced it can be increased to really curb consumption levels.

demand for alcohol is price inelastic. Do you understand what that means?

It is only price inelastic because it is so cheap in supermarkets.
The prices associated with drinking in pubs including taxi etc is very high that is why pubs are closing down all over the place. If price of alcohol was as inelastic as you suggest this would not be happening people would still pay the extra costs.
Obviously alcoholics will get their drink no matter what other sacrifices, but if you are moderate drinking, (even heavy drinking by official standards a binge something ridiculous like 4 pints) this will not have a massive impact. Currently a box of pringles on a fri night will cost the same as getting me partially tipsy, for the price of a pizza I could be hammered.

odyssey06 · 28-09-2018 02:55PM

joe40 wrote: »

It is only price inelastic because it is so cheap in supermarkets.
The prices associated with drinking in pubs including taxi etc is very high that is why pubs are closing down all over the place. If price of alcohol was as inelastic as you suggest this would not be happening people would still pay the extra costs.
Obviously alcoholics will get their drink no matter what other sacrifices, but if you are moderate drinking, (even heavy drinking by official standards a binge something ridiculous like 4 pints) this will not have a massive impact. Currently a box of pringles on a fri night will cost the same as getting me partially tipsy, for the price of a pizza I could be hammered.

It's not cheap in supermarkets, look at the prices in other Western European countries in supermarkets AND pubs. What's different in Ireland is that pubs are a rip off.

Pubs are closing down cos of drink driving laws too. Maybe it's the price of socialising that's elastic?

And if you are moderate drinking, what's the problem and why are the state interfering?

People still get drunk in pubs and make a show of themselves, and cause social issues!

listermint · 28-09-2018 02:56PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's not.

its 100% is, you should really chat to alcoholics, or drug users.

Price has no bearing on consumption they will drink or take drugs regardless of the cost.

You clearly dont understand what it means.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 28-09-2018 02:56PM

The backlash to any proposed anti competition measure could be severe.

It would be one of the most unpopular decisions in the history of the State. No joke.

28-09-2018 02:56PM

Alcohol is just one of those things that people will buy regardless of the cost.
Went to a gig the other night and it cost 13 euro for 2 pints. Myself and my friend still had 4 each.
If the price goes up in supermarkets, I'll still buy as much as normal and just make cuts elsewhere.

The price of cigarettes went up a lot in recent years. People just switched to Vaping and bringing back large volumes of smokes from holidays.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 28-09-2018 03:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Alcohol is just one of those things that people will buy regardless of the cost.
Went to a gig the other night and it cost 13 euro for 2 pints. Myself and my friend still had 4 each.
If the price goes up in supermarkets, I'll still buy as much as normal and just make cuts elsewhere.

The price of cigarettes went up a lot in recent years. People just switched to Vaping and bringing back large volumes of smokes from holidays.

The black market also took off.

Contraband tobacco is one of the most lucrative rackets in the country at the moment.

A pure goldmine,.

facehugger99 · 28-09-2018 03:07PM

listermint wrote: »

its 100% is, you should really chat to alcoholics, or drug users.

Price has no bearing on consumption they will drink or take drugs regardless of the cost.

You clearly dont understand what it means.

It 100% isn't and you're moving the goalposts.

Young drinkers are very much influenced by price - maybe you should chat to a few.

weldoninhio · 28-09-2018 03:07PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Your problem is you've been lead to believe that €20 for a slab of beer is 'normal'.

It's not.

It's an artificially cheap price designed to get people into the supermarkets and buying their other products. It has a damaging effect on society and opens up alcohol availability to the young - very easy for a couple of 14 year old lads to scrape together €10 each.

For about E80 I can produce 40 pints of lager at home.

For huge brewers the cost per pint brewed is well less that E1, probably around 25-30c. E20 for a slab of beer is expensive compared to the cost of brewing, canning and transporting it en masse, as seen by prices in other, less nanny-state, countries.

odyssey06 · 28-09-2018 03:08PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The black market also took off.
Contraband tobacco is one of the most lucrative rackets in the country at the moment.
A pure goldmine,.

This is already happening... €165,000 in smuggled beer seized at Dublin Port.
http://www.thejournal.ie/alcohol-dublin-port-4258341-Sep2018/

I wonder what their success rate is at detection, 10%?

Ace2007 · 28-09-2018 03:12PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

If they're already broke yet finding money for drink it suggests the price of alcohol is inelastic.

There's no evidence that moderate consumption of alcohol leads to social or health issues.

So you're talking about people drinking to excess of which alcoholics must be considered.

It's not an extreme case - the laws are being brought in for the minority which abuses alcohol rather than just to annoy the responsible majority.

If someone is going out getting totally drunk then clamp down on that behaviour which already breaks multiple laws that we already have on the books and to which people have no objections.

This is the action of a weak pathetic state who is incapable of dealing with actual law breakers and instead punishes the law abiding.

The definition of an alcoholic depends on who you talk to - just like binge drinking.

Go onto google there and find stats - more than half of 18-75 year old drinkers were classified as harmful drinkers - that’s over a million people.

The thing is you’ll say your not a harmful drinking based on your definition but the health experts say different

McMurphy · 28-09-2018 03:13PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

It 100% isn't and you're moving the goalposts.

Young drinkers are very much influenced by price - maybe you should chat to a few.

They are in their bollocks.

If it's any thing like it was when I was growing up, a teenager who wanted to get langers, but might not necessarily had the funds would end up either "acquiring" the funds (their mams purse, or dad's jeans), robbed the booze from a cabinet in the house, or do without other stuff (chipper money or a taxi fare).

odyssey06 · 28-09-2018 03:13PM

Trying to reduce underage drinking with price increases is like trying to reduce drink driving with price increases instead of putting Gardai out there to enforce the law.

odyssey06 · 28-09-2018 03:16PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

The definition of an alcoholic depends on who you talk to - just like binge drinking.
Go onto google there and find stats - more than half of 18-75 year old drinkers were classified as harmful drinkers - that’s over a million people.
The thing is you’ll say your not a harmful drinking based on your definition but the health experts say different

Why is the definition of harmful drinking different between Ireland, France and Spain if it's based on real science? Is an Irishman's body that different to a Frenchman's body?
If the definition of harmful drinking depends on who you are talking to, it sounds like an unreliable definition.

hatrickpatrick · 28-09-2018 03:17PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is why the minimum pricing is a great thing. Whether it doesnt affect pubs or not, whether the discounters lose sales, or whether more profit is channelled to the producers. The bottom line is average higher price. Producing reduced consumption. An unalloyed good thing. Nobody can seriously be against this initiative.

You can be, if you're oppposed to social engineering. I don't believe that "reduced consumption" is "a good thing" unless people reduce their consumption purely, completely and only by choice. No amount of coercion whatsoever is acceptable to me, as a basic principle of social liberalism. The government should not be attempting to mould how people choose to live their lives by restricting their freedom to live their lives as they see fit.

Ace2007 · 28-09-2018 03:17PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Trying to reduce underage drinking with price increases is like trying to reduce drink driving with price increases instead of putting Gardai out there to enforce the law.

And there is where we differ.

I would say the way to reduce drink driving is for people to be educated to cop the f**k on. It’s not the Gardai’s responsibility to stop them it’s their responsibility to arrest them if they offend.

The Rape of Lucretia · 28-09-2018 03:18PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's not.

Alcohol is ineleastic. But people seem to think that means demand doesnt change with price. Not the case. Being inelastic means that demand versus price has a slope lower than 1. i.e. that a given % increase in price will prompt a lower than that % reduction in demand. Not that demand stays the same. The price inelasticity of alcohol is generally in the range 0.5. Or, a 20% increase in price will prompt a 10% reduction in demand.
Increasing the price of alcohol reduces consumption. This is indisputable.

KrustyUCC · 28-09-2018 03:19PM

joe40 wrote: »

If you're not drinking to excess the extra price will be minimal.
Maybe I'm wrong but for arguments sake 8 x 500ml cans of beer would be a good nights drinking for me. By official standards well into excess territory but even to keep things in the real world, 8 pints (a gallon of beer) would be a good drink but common enough.
How would the minimum pricing affect this price. Currently 8 cans of lager will cost about 13 euro, how much will this go up by. (genuine question by the way, I don't know)

It doesn't matter if you are drinking to excess or having a can a night everything in off licences /supermarket under the threshold will go up

Lets take your example of 8 cans = €13

Take 2 different products Carlsberg + Bulmers

Carlsberg was 8 for €13

Under MUP now €13.57

Bulmers now €14.20

Now lets take something like Perlenbache in Lidl

Now 1.05 * 8 = 8.40

Under MUP €15.15

Almost doubled

The exact same product in Spain is €2.80 for your 8 cans

441% dearer here under MUP for exactly the same product

We already have some of the most expensive alcohol in Europe. This will only make things worse for everybody

hatrickpatrick · 28-09-2018 03:19PM

joe40 wrote: »

Currently 8 cans of lager will cost about 13 euro, how much will this go up by. (genuine question by the way, I don't know)

That's where you're wrong. 8 cans of decent beer, say Perlenbacher, will on occasion cost as little as €7.30 in Lidl. 12 cans of bog-standard beer (Galahad) will cost the same, again in Lidl. So for those already on a tight budget who avail of these discounted prices, this will be a huge difference.

facehugger99 · 28-09-2018 03:20PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

They are in their bollocks.

If it's any thing like it was when I was growing up, a teenager who wanted to get langers, but might not necessarily had the funds would end up either "acquiring" the funds (their mams purse, or dad's jeans), robbed the booze from a cabinet in the house, or do without other stuff (chipper money or a taxi fare).

You're very misguided if you believe a higher price won't have any effect on teenage drinking habits.

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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