Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Ace2007

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And students are consenting adults, so they should be allowed in principle to get as sh!tfaced as they choose in the privacy of their own homes.

yes, but are they doing it in their own homes, go into Dublin tonight - you will see people binge drinking under the definition of binge drinking - asked them and they will say they aren't - as they are uneducated.

stay out till 3/4am - you will see young lads fighting because they couldn't handle the drink and emotions.

got to A&E around 5/6am and you'll see the effects of these drunken young people - some will have cuts and bruises, others may have more serious conditions, you know some innocent people have been stabbed and attacked and lost their lives because these "consenting adults" got sh!tfaced as you like to put it.

go to AA meetings, and find out the impact drink has had on the lives of many, again many innocent people - spouse and children - due to a "consenting adult".

I wonder would people have the same response if Coke was sold legally and cheaply, as a few bumps wont' do any harm, and sure people are consenting adults, if they get addicted and fcuk up their lives, well that's there issues.

KrustyUCC

Yet the prices for everybody will be increased even for those who have nothing to do with any of scenarios you describe

Our prices are already amongst the highest in Europe

ohnonotgmail

Ace2007 wrote: »

yes, but are they doing it in their own homes, go into Dublin tonight - you will see people binge drinking under the definition of binge drinking - asked them and they will say they aren't - as they are uneducated.

stay out till 3/4am - you will see young lads fighting because they couldn't handle the drink and emotions.

got to A&E around 5/6am and you'll see the effects of these drunken young people - some will have cuts and bruises, others may have more serious conditions, you know some innocent people have been stabbed and attacked and lost their lives because these "consenting adults" got sh!tfaced as you like to put it.

go to AA meetings, and find out the impact drink has had on the lives of many, again many innocent people - spouse and children - due to a "consenting adult".

I wonder would people have the same response if Coke was sold legally and cheaply, as a few bumps wont' do any harm, and sure people are consenting adults, if they get addicted and fcuk up their lives, well that's there issues.

these people you refer to out at all hours of the night have been in pubs. pubs will not be affected by these changes.

odyssey06

Ace2007 wrote: »

stay out till 3/4am - you will see young lads fighting because they couldn't handle the drink and emotions.

Did none of them come out of pubs and clubs where they paid way more than minimum prices for their drink?
Is it only the drink from supermarkets that leads you to throw punches? I've never been out at 3am on supermarket drink so that must be it cos I've never thrown a punch at 3am no matter how many JD and Cokes I paid over the odds for.

Being drunk and disorderly is an offence.
Violent conduct is an offence.
Sometimes drink is a pretext \ excuse not a cause.

If breaking multiple laws isn't a deterrence, relying on something as indirect as price is bonkers.

go to AA meetings, and find out the impact drink has had on the lives of many, again many innocent people - spouse and children - due to a "consenting adult".

It only takes one drink to become an alcoholic.

Ace2007

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

these people you refer to out at all hours of the night have been in pubs. pubs will not be affected by these changes.

So people don't pre drink with cheap drink?
It's the pre drinking the messes the majority of people up - drinks as much as they can before leaving their homes as it's cheaper than the pub.

If it becomes dearer than the pubs, than they won't drink as much...

odyssey06

Ace2007 wrote: »

So people don't pre drink with cheap drink?
It's the pre drinking the messes the majority of people up - drinks as much as they can before leaving their homes as it's cheaper than the pub.

So you can drink as much as you can in a pub without getting drunk?
Truly the Irish pub is a magical place where for every drink you have, it's actually a leprechaun in fairy land getting drunk.

ohnonotgmail

Ace2007 wrote: »

So people don't pre drink with cheap drink?
It's the pre drinking the messes the majority of people up - drinks as much as they can before leaving their homes as it's cheaper than the pub.

If it becomes dearer than the pubs, than they won't drink as much...

as i said already on this thread if you think that upping prices will have such fantastic outcomes then you should be campaigning for an increase in excise duties not MUP. Or is MUP better because it disproportionately affects poorer people and god knows we cant be having poor people enjoy themselves.

Hotblack Desiato

Ace2007 wrote: »

If it becomes dearer than the pubs, than they won't drink as much...

Maybe the answer to obesity is making cooking at home dearer than going to a restaurant??

Your post is right up there among the dumbest things I've read, ever.

ohnonotgmail

odyssey06 wrote: »

So you can drink as much as you can in a pub without getting drunk?
Truly the Irish pub is a magical place where for every drink you have, it's actually a leprechaun in fairy land getting drunk.

ah no the vintners will tell you that they look after their customers and they would never serve somebody who was already drunk.

odyssey06

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

as i said already on this thread if you think that upping prices will have such fantastic outcomes then you should be campaigning for an increase in excise duties not MUP. Or is MUP better because it disproportionately affects poorer people and god knows we cant be having poor people enjoy themselves.

Only poor people can cause problems when they get drunk.

If it's a bunch of students with loaded parents no matter how drunk they get or how many fights they start it cannot be an issue.

Doctor Jimbob

Ace2007 wrote: »

So people don't pre drink with cheap drink?
It's the pre drinking the messes the majority of people up - drinks as much as they can before leaving their homes as it's cheaper than the pub.

If it becomes dearer than the pubs, than they won't drink as much...

I think we need a post at the top of every page pointing out that drink is not cheap in Irish supermarkets.

Ace2007

odyssey06 wrote: »

So you can drink as much as you can in a pub without getting drunk?
Truly the Irish pub is a magical place where for every drink you have, it's actually a leprechaun in fairy land getting drunk.

Did I say that?
Students pre drink and usually get locked before they head into town because the drink is cheaper.

Yes they will continue to buy drink in pubs but at that stage the majority of them either don’t care about the price cause of the buzz they are having or so drunk they don’t realise - you ever see those comic videos of waking up and checking your wallet dying with hangover?

Now if you remove the pre drinking element they won’t spend as much money in a pub as it would cost a lot more.

Dublin Spur

responsible drinkers getting hammered (excuse the pun) due to drinking habits of irresponsible drinkers

another case of the tail wagging the dog

KrustyUCC

People should just remove the pub element

Also if these students are locked before they get to town how do they get into pubs?

Surely the vintners won't allow drunk students into their premises

Ace2007

Dublin Spur wrote: »

responsible drinkers getting hammered (excuse the pun) due to drinking habits of irresponsible drinkers

another case of the tail wagging the dog

So what’s your soultion to the problem?

Dublin Spur

Ace2007 wrote: »

So what’s your soultion to the problem?

not minimum unit pricing anyway

facehugger99

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Is that a serious question?

If the consumption of alcohol is as inelastic as is being claimed, why would people migrate from the on trade to the off trade?

Ace2007

Dublin Spur wrote: »

not minimum unit pricing anyway

So your saying you don’t agree with this soultion but fail to come up with another possible solution.

Ace2007

Ace2007 wrote: »

So what’s your soultion to the problem?

Is it really that big of a problem? I can think of a lot of much bigger problems worth tackling in this country.

Young people like to get locked, a small minority cause trouble.

You'll find trouble in a lot of cities at that time anyways.

weldoninhio

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

They are in their bollocks.

If it's any thing like it was when I was growing up, a teenager who wanted to get langers, but might not necessarily had the funds would end up either "acquiring" the funds (their mams purse, or dad's jeans), robbed the booze from a cabinet in the house, or do without other stuff (chipper money or a taxi fare).

Going by his nonsense talk, you’d see very few teenagers with iPhones or Galaxy’s

Ace2007

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it really that big of a problem? I can think of a lot of much bigger problems worth tackling in this country.

Young people like to get locked, a small minority cause trouble.

You'll find trouble in a lot of cities at that time anyways.

What’s your thoughts on the cost of cigarettes? Should we reduce these? Less people smoke now due to education and the cost of them.

Same approach with drink might also work no?

Dublin Spur

Ace2007 wrote: »

So your saying you don’t agree with this soultion but fail to come up with another possible solution.

I'm not sure a solution is needed, the vast vast majority of people who take a drink behave themselves.

Do you agree that's its wrong that all drinkers should be charged more due to the drinking habbits of the few?

Surely we can all agree with that principle

listermint

Ace2007 wrote: »

So what’s your soultion to the problem?

Implementing much of Michael McDowell's cafe license laws and relax the licensing.

Education, increase education and health spending at second level.

and basically continue as we are.


Because consumption is going down.

ohnonotgmail

Ace2007 wrote: »

What’s your thoughts on the cost of cigarettes? Should we reduce these? Less people smoke now due to education and the cost of them.

Same approach with drink might also work no?

It might. so raise the excise duty on alcohol. Except the government will never agree to that because it will upset their vintner friends. the purpose of this measure was not about reducing consumption. It was about placating vintners.

Ace2007

Ace2007 wrote: »

What’s your thoughts on the cost of cigarettes? Should we reduce these? Less people smoke now due to education and the cost of them.

Same approach with drink might also work no?

Smoking is kind of a different beast because most smokers don't actually enjoy smoking. They just sort of get addicted and then its hard to stop. Price increases led many to vaping instead.

People actually enjoy drinking though. Its a social thing. They want to drink. Its a different mentality and something that I think can't be stopped.

I drank a lot when I was younger. It was great fun, but you just sort of grow out of it eventually.

KrustyUCC

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It might. so raise the excise duty on alcohol. Except the government will never agree to that because it will upset their vintner friends. the purpose of this measure was not about reducing consumption. It was about placating vintners.

Exactly

Just for clarity again

5 Community and Rural Affairs 25

13 Health and Mental Health 47

Lets note where this proposal came from

5. Community and Rural Affairs

5.3 Keeping Communities Vibrant

Supporting Irish Pubs: Fine Gael recognises the importance of the Irish pub for tourism, rural jobs and as a social outlet in communities across the country. We will support the local pub by banning the practice
of below cost selling on alcohol, particularly by large supermarkets and the impact this has had on alcohol consumption and the viability of pubs.

http://michaelpidgeon.com/manifestos/docs/fg/Fine%20Gael%20GE%202011.pdf

MUP is not addressing below cost selling of alcohol. It is setting a minumum price. All just to support their vintner buddies

This proposal was never about health

odyssey06

Ace2007 wrote: »

Did I say that?
Students pre drink and usually get locked before they head into town because the drink is cheaper.

Yes they will continue to buy drink in pubs but at that stage the majority of them either don’t care about the price cause of the buzz they are having or so drunk they don’t realise - you ever see those comic videos of waking up and checking your wallet dying with hangover?

Now if you remove the pre drinking element they won’t spend as much money in a pub as it would cost a lot more.

You say it by acting as if only people who predrink are a concern. As if nobody can get drunk in a pub.

If its only students so charge anyone with a student card more. That makes as much sense as mup.

What if the students arent poor? And still get locked? In a pub? Your justification for mup makes no sense if your concern is about 3am mayhem.

odyssey06

If you want to tackle 3am mayhem get some guards on duty actually enforcing the drunk and disorderly laws as other countries do. And stagger closing times so everyone isnt thrown out onto streets at same time... as other countries do.

If you want to get teenagers out of fields knacker drinking either start arresting them or let 16yo buy beer or wine in pubs but not offies. As other countries do.

Our solution to problem drinking has publicans salivating. Even the ones who gleefully serve obviously drunk customers. That should tell you what you need to know.

hatrickpatrick

Ace2007 wrote: »

yes, but are they doing it in their own homes, go into Dublin tonight - you will see people binge drinking under the definition of binge drinking - asked them and they will say they aren't - as they are uneducated.

stay out till 3/4am - you will see young lads fighting because they couldn't handle the drink and emotions.

got to A&E around 5/6am and you'll see the effects of these drunken young people - some will have cuts and bruises, others may have more serious conditions, you know some innocent people have been stabbed and attacked and lost their lives because these "consenting adults" got sh!tfaced as you like to put it.

And if they're negatively affecting others by their choices, that should be - and indeed is - a criminal offense, dealt with through the justice system.

But since not everyone who gets sh!tfaced behaves this way, it's something people should have a right to do unimpeded. Only the specific individuals who harm others should be targeted by the law.

go to AA meetings, and find out the impact drink has had on the lives of many, again many innocent people - spouse and children - due to a "consenting adult".

Only some people have dependents. Some people have none and have no interest in ever having any. Those individuals should be free to do whatever they like with their own lives.

I wonder would people have the same response if Coke was sold legally and cheaply, as a few bumps wont' do any harm, and sure people are consenting adults, if they get addicted and fcuk up their lives, well that's there issues.

That'd be my own opinion anyway. Your body, your choice - period. Only when you begin specifically affecting someone else without their consent does it become anyone else's business. And if even one person is capable of getting sh!tfaced without negatively affecting another individual, then any law which isn't targeted against specific individuals is an unjust law. For the record, I have always and will always oppose drug prohibition for the same reason. It's your body, you should be entirely free to put whatever substance you feel like putting into it without restriction, so long as you do so in a manner which has no negative effects on anyone who didn't consent to those effects.

Doctor Jimbob

facehugger99 wrote: »

If the consumption of alcohol is as inelastic as is being claimed, why would people migrate from the on trade to the off trade?

There's a huge difference between choosing the cheaper of two options and continuing to buy something if it becomes more expensive.