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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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    #2642
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,317 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    joe40 wrote: »
    I think it will have an effect on the levels of excess drinking but obviously only time will tell.
    For me personally as someone who (a) likes drinking and (b) hates spending more than I need to, I still think this is something as a society is worth doing, and I'm willing to pay the extra in the supermarket.
    I think pricing has to have an effect on excessive consumption. I do understand peoples objection but for me on balance I think it is something worth doing.


    But surely you should have done some study on the effects of a change before implementing it?


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    #2643
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,317 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    Why pick the extreme case?
    Alcoholics wont but students who can’t afford drink wil be affected - if I see a bottle of wine is 8€ I might buy it if same bottle is 18€ I probably won’t.

    Given how so many people on threads complaint about being broke cause of high rents - they won’t have money to buy drink which in turn will mean less alcoholic issues whether these are social or health wise.


    No need to pick the extreme case. For people who only drink moderately it wont affect their consumption, they will just pay more for it. The only people who benefit are retailers.


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    #2644
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    joe40 wrote: »
    I think it will have an effect on the levels of excess drinking but obviously only time will tell.
    For me personally as someone who (a) likes drinking and (b) hates spending more than I need to, I still think this is something as a society is worth doing, and I'm willing to pay the extra in the supermarket.
    I think pricing has to have an effect on excessive consumption. I do understand peoples objection but for me on balance I think it is something worth doing.


    But surely you should have done some study on the effects of a change before implementing it?
    Well I didn't implement the policy, but the economic rules regarding pricing and consumption are fairly well established.
    Some goods are resistant to price increases but not many.


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    #2645
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    Why pick the extreme case?
    Alcoholics wont but students who can’t afford drink wil be affected - if I see a bottle of wine is 8€ I might buy it if same bottle is 18€ I probably won’t.
    Given how so many people on threads complaint about being broke cause of high rents - they won’t have money to buy drink which in turn will mean less alcoholic issues whether these are social or health wise.

    If they're already broke yet finding money for drink it suggests the price of alcohol is inelastic.

    There's no evidence that moderate consumption of alcohol leads to social or health issues.

    So you're talking about people drinking to excess of which alcoholics must be considered.

    It's not an extreme case - the laws are being brought in for the minority which abuses alcohol rather than just to annoy the responsible majority.

    If someone is going out getting totally drunk then clamp down on that behaviour which already breaks multiple laws that we already have on the books and to which people have no objections.

    This is the action of a weak pathetic state who is incapable of dealing with actual law breakers and instead punishes the law abiding.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #2646
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    joe40 wrote: »
    Well I didn't implement the policy, but the economic rules regarding pricing and consumption are fairly well established.
    Some goods are resistant to price increases but not many.

    Given that alcohol already attracts a premium rate of levies, duties and taxation, this surely screams from the hilltops that it is inelastic and is resistant. Otherwise governments wouldn't rely on it as a cash cow.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #2647
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,824 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    If they're already broke yet finding money for drink it suggests the price of alcohol is inelastic.

    There's no evidence that moderate consumption of alcohol leads to social or health issues.

    So you're talking about people drinking to excess of which alcoholics must be considered.

    It's not an extreme case - the laws are being brought in for the minority which abuses alcohol rather than just to annoy the responsible majority.

    If someone is going out getting totally drunk then clamp down on that behaviour which already breaks multiple laws that we already have on the books and to which people have no objections.

    This is the action of a weak pathetic state who is incapable of dealing with actual law breakers and instead punishes the law abiding.

    Its not though, thats the flashy Terry Prone style dressing. Its solely to benefit the Vintners Association and its members.

    Quite literally no other reason.


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    #2648
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    listermint wrote: »
    Its not though, thats the flashy Terry Prone style dressing. Its solely to benefit the Vintners Association and its members.
    Quite literally no other reason.

    You're right of course, I'm talking about the "declared" reason not the real reason and they are using this PR stunt to attract support from the hate-anyone-having-a-good-time-brigade and the will-someone-please-think-of-the-children-brigade.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #2649
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,317 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    joe40 wrote: »
    Well I didn't implement the policy, but the economic rules regarding pricing and consumption are fairly well established.
    Some goods are resistant to price increases but not many.


    some goods are. like alcohol. Demand for alcohol is price inelastic. it is why they have been easy targets for governments when they wanted to raise extra money. This change also hits those on low incomes the hardest. The change is completely regressive. If the government thinks they can tackle demand by raising prices they should increase excise duty on alcohol. that way we all pay equally and the extra money goes to the government, not to retailers. But they wont do that because it will affect the vintner lobby, the same group of people this change protects.


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    #2650
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,262 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    But why penalise 'normal# drinkers at all? Why should I have not now pay €44 for a slab of beer, that I can drink over a number of weeks or use at a party when currently I can get it for €20.

    It makes no sense why I am being asked to pay double the price I am currently paying.

    Your problem is you've been lead to believe that €20 for a slab of beer is 'normal'.

    It's not.

    It's an artificially cheap price designed to get people into the supermarkets and buying their other products. It has a damaging effect on society and opens up alcohol availability to the young - very easy for a couple of 14 year old lads to scrape together €10 each.


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    #2651
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    joe40 wrote: »
    I think it will have an effect on the levels of excess drinking but obviously only time will tell.
    For me personally as someone who (a) likes drinking and (b) hates spending more than I need to, I still think this is something as a society is worth doing, and I'm willing to pay the extra in the supermarket.
    I think pricing has to have an effect on excessive consumption. I do understand peoples objection but for me on balance I think it is something worth doing.

    Alcoholics are just going to sacrifice other things to afford drink. People who just like a drink or two are going to have to pay more for no reason other than to prop up the pub industry. It's complete nonsense.


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    #2652
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Your problem is you've been lead to believe that €20 for a slab of beer is 'normal'.

    It's not.

    It's an artificially cheap price designed to get people into the supermarkets and buying their other products. It has a damaging effect on society and opens up alcohol availability to the young - very easy for a couple of 14 year old lads to scrape together €10 each.

    It's every bit as normal as the artificially inflated prices charged in pubs.

    As has been pointed out several times already, underage drinking is illegal and an entirely separate problem.


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    #2653
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,317 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Your problem is you've been lead to believe that €20 for a slab of beer is 'normal'.

    It's not.

    It's an artificially cheap price designed to get people into the supermarkets and buying their other products. It has a damaging effect on society and opens up alcohol availability to the young - very easy for a couple of 14 year old lads to scrape together €10 each.


    It is not artificially cheap. It is artificially expensive. The same alcohol is much cheaper in other countries. This change will have **** all difference on the damaging effects of alcohol on society.


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    #2654
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,262 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    It's every bit as normal as the artificially inflated prices charged in pubs.
    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    As has been pointed out several times already, underage drinking is illegal and an entirely separate problem.

    This measure will have a positive effect on it. It doesn't rule out other strategies being applied in conjunction with minimum pricing.


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    #2655
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,824 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Your problem is you've been lead to believe that €20 for a slab of beer is 'normal'.

    It's not.

    It's an artificially cheap price designed to get people into the supermarkets and buying their other products. It has a damaging effect on society and opens up alcohol availability to the young - very easy for a couple of 14 year old lads to scrape together €10 each.

    You literally do not understand alcohol prices if that is what you believe.

    Do you even comprehend the makeup of that final customer facing price?


    Doubt it.


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    #2656
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,317 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    It's every bit as normal as the artificially inflated prices charged in pubs.



    This measure will have a positive effect on it. It doesn't rule out other strategies being applied in conjunction with minimum pricing.


    what are you basing that on?


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    #2657
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,262 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    It is not artificially cheap. It is artificially expensive. The same alcohol is much cheaper in other countries. This change will have **** all difference on the damaging effects of alcohol on society.

    It will have a very positive influence - once it's introduced it can be increased to really curb consumption levels.


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    #2658
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    facehugger99 wrote: »


    This measure will have a positive effect on it. It doesn't rule out other strategies being applied in conjunction with minimum pricing.

    Banning alcohol altogether would have a positive effect on it too, that doesn't mean doing so would in any way be feasible or a good idea.


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    #2659
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,317 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    It will have a very positive influence - once it's introduced it can be increased to really curb consumption levels.


    demand for alcohol is price inelastic. Do you understand what that means?


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    #2660
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    Alcoholics are just going to sacrifice other things to afford drink. People who just like a drink or two are going to have to pay more for no reason other than to prop up the pub industry. It's complete nonsense.

    The benefit is not really to alcoholics, it is to the future non-alcoholics.
    The people who like a drink or two choosing, whether old enough to drink today or those who have yet to start, who will have a drink and not two. Or none at all.
    That is when everyone becomes a winner.


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    #2661
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,317 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    The benefit is not really to alcoholics, it is to the future non-alcoholics.
    The people who like a drink or two choosing, whether old enough to drink today or those who have yet to start, who will have a drink and not two. Or none at all.
    That is when everyone becomes a winner.


    any chance of getting that sentence in english?


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    #2662
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    demand for alcohol is price inelastic. Do you understand what that means?

    Do you ?


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    #2663
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    any chance of getting that sentence in english?

    Certainly :

    The people who like a drink or two choosing, whether old enough to drink today or those who have yet to start, to have a drink and not two.


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    #2664
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    The benefit is not really to alcoholics, it is to the future non-alcoholics.
    The people who like a drink or two choosing, whether old enough to drink today or those who have yet to start, who will have a drink and not two. Or none at all.
    That is when everyone becomes a winner.

    They think it don't be like it is, but it do.


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    #2665
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,262 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    demand for alcohol is price inelastic. Do you understand what that means?

    It's not.


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    #2666
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    facehugger99 wrote: »
    It will have a very positive influence - once it's introduced it can be increased to really curb consumption levels.


    demand for alcohol is price inelastic.  Do you understand what that means?
    It is only price inelastic because it is so cheap in supermarkets. 
    The prices associated with drinking in pubs including taxi etc is very high that is why pubs are closing down all over the place. If price of alcohol was as inelastic as you suggest this would not be happening people would still pay the extra costs.
    Obviously alcoholics will get their drink no matter what other sacrifices, but if you are moderate drinking, (even heavy drinking by official standards a binge something ridiculous like 4 pints) this will not have a massive impact. Currently a box of pringles on a fri night will cost the same as getting me partially tipsy, for the price of a pizza I could be hammered.


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    #2667
    Doctor Jimbob
    Registered Users Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    Alcohol is only cheap in supermarkets relative to the extortionate cost in pubs. We're one of the most expensive counties to buy alcohol in, no matter where you get it.


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    #2668
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,580 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    joe40 wrote: »
    It is only price inelastic because it is so cheap in supermarkets. 
    The prices associated with drinking in pubs including taxi etc is very high that is why pubs are closing down all over the place. If price of alcohol was as inelastic as you suggest this would not be happening people would still pay the extra costs.
    Obviously alcoholics will get their drink no matter what other sacrifices, but if you are moderate drinking, (even heavy drinking by official standards a binge something ridiculous like 4 pints) this will not have a massive impact. Currently a box of pringles on a fri night will cost the same as getting me partially tipsy, for the price of a pizza I could be hammered.

    It's not cheap in supermarkets, look at the prices in other Western European countries in supermarkets AND pubs. What's different in Ireland is that pubs are a rip off.

    Pubs are closing down cos of drink driving laws too. Maybe it's the price of socialising that's elastic?

    And if you are moderate drinking, what's the problem and why are the state interfering?

    People still get drunk in pubs and make a show of themselves, and cause social issues!

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #2669
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,824 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    It's not.

    its 100% is, you should really chat to alcoholics, or drug users.

    Price has no bearing on consumption they will drink or take drugs regardless of the cost.

    You clearly dont understand what it means.


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    #2670
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    The backlash to any proposed anti competition measure could be severe.

    It would be one of the most unpopular decisions in the history of the State. No joke.


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    #2671
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Alcohol is just one of those things that people will buy regardless of the cost.
    Went to a gig the other night and it cost 13 euro for 2 pints. Myself and my friend still had 4 each.
    If the price goes up in supermarkets, I'll still buy as much as normal and just make cuts elsewhere.

    The price of cigarettes went up a lot in recent years. People just switched to Vaping and bringing back large volumes of smokes from holidays.


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