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Social contradiction on how we treat animals

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    #212
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    We are wired to form beliefs. And we form beliefs based on our cultural influences, our environment: things we are taught by our peers, our elders, our society, our religion. Certain beliefs, however, we have no problem in deeming "wrong" - for instance, female circumcision.

    [...]

    I would like to support the idea that there could be a universal set of biological responses to moral dilemmas, a sort of ethics, built into our brains. My hope is that we soon may be able to uncover those ethics, identify them, and begin to live more fully by them. I believe we live by them largely unconsciously now, but that a lot of suffering, war and conflict could be eliminated if we could agree to live by them more consciously.

    from The Ethical Brain by Michael S Gazzaniga

    Just started reading it. It'll be fascinating to apply his knowledge/explanations/evidence of neuroscience and bioethics to this thread in particular.


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    #213
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭emaherx


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    Ganmo, perhaps it's to point out that more than a diet, veganism's a lifestyle? F'r instance, one could be a herbivore and buy leather shoes, so one is not vegan, if you see what I mean.

    Exactly Vegan is an ideology subscribed to by many. And a term coined and excepted by those who follow said ideology.

    Carnist is a made up term for a made up ideology coined by someone who dose not subscribe to it, but defined by her and applied to all who do not support her views and follow her ideology.

    (Not a dig at you Davidtaylor just your post was relevant to my point.)


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    #214
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    'Retarded vegan'.
    So if people follow the line you are pushing what do with we do with the surplus herds of animals?

    Just on a side note, if there's no animals who's going to fertilise the land to grow the crops for people to eat?


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    #215
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    JeffKenna wrote:
    Just on a side note, if there's no animals who's going to fertilise the land to grow the crops for people to eat?


    Now now don't be pointing out obvious flaws in their logic. Anyway from what I can see they don't answer questions or engage. Just post links to for want of a better description bs. We have a poster here claiming his dog is mostly vegan but won't respond when asked "does he give his dog meat". Someone I think the dog has no choice if it wants to be vegan or not.


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    #216
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    :)
    JeffKenna wrote: »
    Just on a side note, if there's no animals who's going to fertilise the land to grow the crops for people to eat?

    ICI
    Norsk Hydro
    Uralkail
    BASF
    Israeli Chemicals
    Yara International.

    Same as produces all the fertilizer to grow grains, vegetables and pulses at the moment.
    Made from oil and gas predominantly.
    Which as we all know, is a mixture of billions of years of accumulation of dead animals, organisms and vegetation.


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    #217
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    Just on a side note, if there's no animals who's going to fertilise the land to grow the crops for people to eat?

    On a commercial scale it would require the use of artificial fertilisers and the consequent rise in the use of fossil fuels and their derivatives.

    Green manures are ok smaller scale however to feed over 7 billion people purely on plant based foodstuffs will require vast quantities of artifical fertlisers leading to increased emissions of green house gases and the erinchment of seas and rivers and pollution of the wider environment ...

    Edit: Nekarsulm - you bet me to it ;)


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    #218
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭emaherx


    gozunda wrote: »
    On a commercial scale it would require the use of artificial fertilisers and the consequent rise in the use of fossil fuels and their derivatives.

    Green manures are ok smaller scale however to feed over 7 million people purely on plant based foodstuffs will require vast quantities of artifical fertlisers leading to increased emissions of green house gases and the erinchment of seas and rivers and pollution of the wider environment ...

    Yes but no animals will be killed intentionally right?
    No insects poisoned?
    Rodents and other infestations won't be an issue needing dealing with?
    And we won't have any effect on any animals anywhere either intentionally or otherwise..... Right?


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    #219
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    emaherx wrote: »
    Yes but no animals will be killed intentionally right?
    No insects poisoned?
    Rodents and other infestations won't be an issue needing dealing with?
    And we won't have any effect on any animals anywhere either intentionally or otherwise..... Right?

    I reckon it would be business as usual tbh. Lots of animals and organisms will die unintentionally and otherwise*. Though even where such deaths are deemed 'unintentional' that won't be any much solace to Joey the weevil or Bugs the bunny either way ...

    The contradiction of all that is some appear to be interested in reducing animal 'suffering', just so long as it’s not terribly inconvenient...


    *Afaik the estimated annual total death toll of wild animals etc through cultivation etc is approx 7.3 billion


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    #220
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Welcome to my ignore list.

    I'd not even mention the ignore list if it was me, klopparama. Just putting unwanteds on ignore is sufficient and, if enough people did it, they'd lose the oxygen of acknowledgment.

    This is supposed to be a forum for vegetarians and vegans, after all.


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    #221
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    davidjtaylor wrote:
    This is supposed to be a forum for vegetarians and vegans, after all.


    An echo chamber.


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    #222
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    I'd not even mention the ignore list if it was me, klopparama. Just putting unwanteds on ignore is sufficient and, if enough people did it, they'd lose the oxygen of acknowledgment.

    This is supposed to be a forum for vegetarians and vegans, after all.

    but when farming is brought up don't expect us to ignore it because it is a non farming forum


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    #223
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    I'd not even mention the ignore list if it was me, klopparama. Just putting unwanteds on ignore is sufficient and, if enough people did it, they'd lose the oxygen of acknowledgment.
    This is supposed to be a forum for vegetarians and vegans, after all*.

    David - The repeated calls to ignore other posters with alternate or varying opinions is less than helpful in any discussion - after all boards.ie IS a discussion based forum.

    Personally I agree with this from the forum charter which states that:
    Boards.ie is a discussion forum! This is not facebook or a blog so don't treat it as such. This forum does not rely on contribution from moderators, it relies on contribution from everyone, including non-vegetarians and non-vegans.

    Perhaps you do not.

    I often find that the most intolerant are those that block the presence of others ...

    *other examples of this ...

    "This is supposed to be a country for for only 'purple people' after all"

    "This is supposed to be a forum for 'worshippers of the great god Azura', after all"

    "This is supposed to be a forum for x, after all - 'I do not wish to have to mix with any others'."

    Imo strange sentiments for those who voluntarily come here and then attempt to change everyone else's opinion by preaching against the status quo a


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    #224
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭emaherx


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    This is supposed to be a forum for vegetarians and vegans, after all.

    How does this topic help vegetarians and vegans?

    Only a few days ago vegetarians were being put down in another thread for using animal products. (That was very supportive)

    And the ironic thing is the only example of the contradiction of how we treat animals so far in this thread was when a certain someone said they kept a dog on a mostly vegan diet.


    Vegans keeping dogs now there is a social contradiction. If vegan ethos is to do no harm then they can't keep a dog on a vegan diet as it cruel also they can't feed the dog meat as it would justify a meat industry.


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    #225
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    emaherx wrote: »
    How does this topic help vegetarians and vegans?

    Only a few days ago vegetarians were being put down in another thread for using animal products. (That was very supportive)

    And the ironic thing is the only example of the contradiction of how we treat animals so far in this thread was when a certain someone said they kept a dog on a mostly vegan diet.


    Vegans keeping dogs now there is a social contradiction. If vegan ethos is to do no harm then they can't keep a dog on a vegan diet as it cruel also they can't feed the dog meat as it would justify a meat industry.

    How can a vegan countanance keeping a dog in captivity/slavery in their house?
    Every argument they use against livestock farming can equally be applied to keeping pets.
    Housed in an unnatural environment,
    Use of restraints in the form of collars, chokechains, leads etc.
    Forced to eat a man made diet, containing things no dog in the wild would ever eat,
    Not allowed forage for their food,
    Chemical treatments, for parasites and vanity reasons, and in many cases bred to order in conditions of squalor.
    For these reasons alone, vegans should be on the streets fighting to make keeping pets illigal.


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    #226
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    I've shared my house with dogs for decades but I do agree with some of what the last two posters say.

    Not all. Some.


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    #227
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    How can a vegan countanance keeping a dog in captivity/slavery in their house?
    Every argument they use against livestock farming can equally be applied to keeping pets.
    Housed in an unnatural environment,
    Use of restraints in the form of collars, chokechains, leads etc.
    Forced to eat a man made diet, containing things no dog in the wild would ever eat,
    Not allowed forage for their food,
    Chemical treatments, for parasites and vanity reasons, and in many cases bred to order in conditions of squalor.For these reasons alone, vegans should be on the streets fighting to make keeping pets illigal.

    There's also the issue frequently aired here of animals being 'raped' / castrated etc without the animals consent. Any companion animal / pet brought to a vet and which requires gynecological or similar examination or to be neutered or sprayed are be subjected to the very treatment that many vegans accuse farmers of.
    How in all conscience does such contradiction exist without evident introspection?


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    #228
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭emaherx


    gozunda wrote: »
    There's also the issue frequently aired here of animals being 'raped' / castrated etc without the animals consent. Any companion animal / pet brought to a vet and which requires gynecological or similar examination or to be neutered or sprayed are be subjected to the very treatment that many vegans accuse farmers of.
    How in all conscience does such contradiction exist without evident introspection?

    To be fair we were reading it wrong from the start.
    Thread title is "social contradiction of how we treat animals" and it is a vegan forum so " social contradiction of how vegans treat animals"

    :D


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    #229
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Post about the topic or do not post at all, I'll be deleting most of the comments in this thread in due course.


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    #230
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    Post about the topic or do not post at all, I'll be deleting most of the comments in this thread in due course.

    Hi there Tar,
    If you are going to have a perodical cull of posts that develop during the course of discussion of a thread, that dont agree with the OP, what point is there in keeping tbe thread open at all?
    Regards, Nec.


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    #231
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    I am not removing posts that agree or disagree with the OP, I am removing off topic posts which most posts are, this is not after hours. In future PM questions regarding moderation, do not post on thread.


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    #232
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    In some eyes, vegans should not share their lives with animals. When this finally dawns on them (most vegans are aware of it already), the resultant emotionally-loaded & shrill outbursts (hey, I thought that was what vegans did. I forgive you, humans) show the real contradiction - that these people are suddenly concerned for this particular class of creature.

    To compare loving a sentient creature so much that you want him live forever; to give her the best of care and comfort; to have a fun, happy, healthy, enjoyable life - to compare that with the atrocities visited upon animals by those who - vicariously or directly - exploit them and eat them is at best a humungous social contradiction.

    Hey, don't get me wrong. If I had the power, today, I would unleash all creatures in captivity - all! - and make it illegal for anyone to exploit them in any way. We don't do this with humans yet, so my wish is a distance off...so don't get up in arms about vegans wanting to police the world, dear reader. There's a long way to go. Get your priorities straight. Eliminating caring for dumped animals is way, way down the list.


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    #233
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,524 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Hi there Tar,
    If you are going to have a perodical cull of posts that develop during the course of discussion of a thread, that dont agree with the OP, what point is there in keeping tbe thread open at all?
    Regards, Nec.

    This is the problem with boards, heavy handed moderation by people with their own ajenda.


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    #234
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    davidjtaylor wrote:
    To compare loving a sentient creature so much that you want him live forever; to give her the best of care and comfort; to have a fun, happy, healthy, enjoyable life - to compare that with the atrocities visited upon animals by those who - vicariously or directly - exploit them and eat them is at best a humungous social contradiction.


    You claimed your dog is almost vegan. I asked you did you feed him meat. To-date you have refused to answer. I actually find the keeping of an animal and trying to change it's nature to match that of its owner a social contradiction tbh. Of course though no response will be forthcoming.


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    #235
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Another great example of the social contradiction on how we treat, and view, some animals differently to others -

    Western Australia police investigate 'sickening' kangaroo killings http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-45657449

    A police investigation and public outrage on the abuse carried out on kangaroos.

    Yet footage from farms showing similar attacks on cows and pigs doesn’t seem to cause the same level of police investigation or indeed of public outrage.


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    #236
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭emaherx


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Another great example of the social contradiction on how we treat, and view, some animals differently to others -

    Western Australia police investigate 'sickening' kangaroo killings http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-45657449

    A police investigation and public outrage on the abuse carried out on kangaroos.

    Yet footage from farms showing similar attacks on cows and pigs doesn’t seem to cause the same level of police investigation or indeed of public outrage.


    Fairly sure it does.
    https://mercyforanimals.org/dairy-farm-worker-arrested-for-beating-cow


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    #237
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    emaherx wrote: »
    Fairly sure it does.
    https://mercyforanimals.org/dairy-farm-worker-arrested-for-beating-cow

    Good for people to view the clips within that article to get an idea of what goes on.

    There are some truly brutal videos that have emerged from the farming industry that have never had a sniff of investigation.

    In some cases the police and the farming industry have unfortunately put their resources toward finding out who recorded the footage. That prosecution is more important to them to try and stop others from recording the horrific conditions and treatment of animals.

    A move to protect profits over tortured animals.

    People see footage of abused animals and get angry. And rightly so.

    People see footage of abused farmed animals and say ‘ I don’t want to see it, I don’t want to know’.

    100% contradiction.


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    #238
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭emaherx


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Good for people to view the clips within that article to get an idea of what goes on.

    There are some truly brutal videos that have emerged from the farming industry that have never had a sniff of investigation.

    In some cases the police and the farming industry have unfortunately put their resources toward finding out who recorded the footage. That prosecution is more important to them to try and stop others from recording the horrific conditions and treatment of animals.

    A move to protect profits over tortured animals.

    People see footage of abused animals and get angry. And rightly so.

    People see footage of abused farmed animals and say ‘ I don’t want to see it, I don’t want to know’.

    100% contradiction.

    What goes on in a few places does not equate to what goes on everywhere!

    Point is if you beat a dog or a cow in this country (can't possibly speak for the laws of every country) you will be treated in the same way by the authorities. So no contradiction.


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    #239
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Speaking of tresspassers.

    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/cows-die-on-german-farm-following-overnight-release/


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    #240
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Good for people to view the clips within that article to get an idea of what goes on.

    There are some truly brutal videos that have emerged from the farming industry that have never had a sniff of investigation.

    In some cases the police and the farming industry have unfortunately put their resources toward finding out who recorded the footage. That prosecution is more important to them to try and stop others from recording the horrific conditions and treatment of animals.

    A move to protect profits over tortured animals.

    People see footage of abused animals and get angry. And rightly so.

    People see footage of abused farmed animals and say ‘ I don’t want to see it, I don’t want to know’.

    100% contradiction.

    in some jurisdictions the recorder is required to provide statements to accompany the video as evidence.
    there was recently a video in england but when the authorities asked the the individual who recorded it to come forward...they didn't obviously didn't care too much


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    #241
    emaherx
    Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Beating cattle certainly would not be a widespread issue as it is unproductive, damages the meat and abused cattle would be very difficult to handle compared to animals that are looked after properly.

    There will always be some cruel people unfortunately. Farmers in this country who are abusive will get caught sooner or later and convicted. There are regular inspections on Irish farms and they are quite detailed.


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