Apple has just ponied up 14 Billion

Guy:Incognito · 18-09-2018 5:29pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

A country that doesn't want to open itself up to anything by admitting it broke the rules in the first place?

jmayo · 18-09-2018 5:53pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

A country that doesn't want to open itself up to anything by admitting it broke the rules in the first place?

Ah yes the rules.
Would these be like the rules like the ones concerning keeping the budget deficit in check that are meant to be adhered to by the likes of Ireland and Greece, but not France or Italy?
Perhaps we are talking about rules around acceptance of refugees/asylum seekers ala the Dublin Regulation that the German chancellor threw out the window when it suited her ?

Speaking of taxes, it seems that Rules are rather like taxes.
They are for the little people or the little countries.

snotboogie · 18-09-2018 6:01pm

canonball5 wrote: »

Yes I do. We have shown that we're completely incompetent when it comes to our own tax regulation and perhaps they could do a better job. At the very least they couldn't do a worse job.

You can’t be serious, I can understand moral qualms concerning our corporate tax regulation but it’s probably the most successful use of tax regulation in the world, either us or Singapore.

noodler · 18-09-2018 6:32pm

jmayo wrote: »

Ah yes the rules.
Would these be like the rules like the ones concerning keeping the budget deficit in check that are meant to be adhered to by the likes of Ireland and Greece, but not France or Italy?
Perhaps we are talking about rules around acceptance of refugees/asylum seekers ala the Dublin Regulation that the German chancellor threw out the window when it suited her ?

Speaking of taxes, it seems that Rules are rather like taxes.
They are for the little people or the little countries.

Jesus.

I seen some random whataboutery on this site before but that's up there.

jammiedodgers · 18-09-2018 6:42pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

The money is just resting in our account

It's our money, we just don't to fill out the forms

soups05 · 18-09-2018 6:50pm

ok lads, how about this for a suggestion.

Leo can fly over and have a closed door meeting with the big boys of the EU. He can lay it out like this

Lads, ye are gonna ruin the country if ye keep this up so here is what we are gonna do...

We will keep the 14 bill...cheers for that

We will lower our corp tax...lets say 6% AND offer better rates to anyone pulling outta the EU block to come here.

We will drop outta the EU making vague claims (like the ones posted here already) about corruption, dodgy taxes etc in the EU.

We will join Britain in trade partnership so no hard border...screw you junker.

We will ring up our kindly uncle Donald and tell him he was right and the EU is full of commies and muslims and request he make us the newest state in the US in return for massive amounts of missles/tanksplanes etc to be based here. (think of the jobs that would bring in)

we then ditch the Euro for the almighty Dollar and erect a giant two fingered salut in the direction of Brussels.

Now if we could just figure how to move the whole country to the east coast of the US, somewhere warm like, then we be set.

anyone got Elon musks number handy? he seems like a bright lad who's up for a challenge.

noodler · 18-09-2018 6:55pm

soups05 wrote: »

ok lads, how about this for a suggestion.

Leo can fly over and have a closed door meeting with the big boys of the EU. He can lay it out like this

Lads, ye are gonna ruin the country if ye keep this up so here is what we are gonna do...

We will keep the 14 bill...cheers for that

We will lower our corp tax...lets say 6% AND offer better rates to anyone pulling outta the EU block to come here.

We will drop outta the EU making vague claims (like the ones posted here already) about corruption, dodgy taxes etc in the EU.

We will join Britain in trade partnership so no hard border...screw you junker.

We will ring up our kindly uncle Donald and tell him he was right and the EU is full of commies and muslims and request he make us the newest state in the US in return for massive amounts of missles/tanksplanes etc to be based here. (think of the jobs that would bring in)

we then ditch the Euro for the almighty Dollar and erect a giant two fingered salut in the direction of Brussels.

Now if we could just figure how to move the whole country to the east coast of the US, somewhere warm like, then we be set.

anyone got Elon musks number handy? he seems like a bright lad who's up for a challenge.

Well you are joking at all but.

Its not our money it will be claimed by other countries.

Lower CT rate isn't as much use if we are outside the EU.

Ditching one currency we can't control for another we can't control seems pointless.

soups05 · 18-09-2018 7:03pm

ah c'mon noodler, at least back me on the moving the country to somewhere warmer bit

noodler · 18-09-2018 7:17pm

soups05 wrote: »

ah c'mon noodler, at least back me on the moving the country to somewhere warmer bit

Fine

doolox · 18-09-2018 7:23pm

The place that the Donald says did not lose as many people in the recent storms as it really did.

Out of the frying pan into the fire.

dxhound2005 · 18-09-2018 7:28pm

The country has paid out more than 14 billion in social welfare so far this year. It wouldn't go very far.

4068ac1elhodqr · 18-09-2018 7:40pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The country has paid out more than 14 billion in social welfare so far this year. It wouldn't go very far.

Maybe, 14,300,000,000 / 4,773,000 = €2,960
But that's for everyone in the audience, roll out the 2019 UBI there Róisín.
Thought it was 29k for a minute, so many zeros!

noodler · 18-09-2018 7:41pm

Hadassah Alive Hay wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not 14,300,0000,000 / 4,773,000 = €29,960
But that's for everyone in the audience, roll out the 2019 UBI there Róisín.

Straight off the national debt

dxhound2005 · 18-09-2018 7:47pm

Hadassah Alive Hay wrote: »

Maybe, 14,300,000,000 / 4,773,000 = €2,960
But that's for everyone in the audience, roll out the 2019 UBI there Róisín.
Thought it was 29k for a minute, so many zeros!

Everyone in the audience manages to drink about €1300 worth of alcohol every year. Even the babies, using that method.

SEPT 23 1989 · 18-09-2018 7:58pm

I would say to these foreign companies ok you can pay very little tax but for that pleasure the country requires

Your drugs free for our sick

Your latest technology free for our schools and colleges

donegal. · 18-09-2018 8:05pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Apple can easily afford this, its like a few cent falling out of their pocket.

I say take it, tell the world we are using it for the good of the Irish people, to try to solve this housing crisis, and spend it on that.

I think Apple won't mind, and won't move all their business out of the country as some fear.

Worth a punt?

But how are we going to spend it? Feck all of its ours.

riffmongous · 18-09-2018 10:31pm

sugarman wrote: »

It makes perfect sense, the cheaper tax rates more than offset expenditure spent elsewhere.

If its raised inline with the rest of the EU, why would they stay and pay through the nose for labour, property, contracts etc.. etc.. when they could venture further east to somewhere like Poland or Czech Rep and operate for a fraction of the costs?

But why haven't the other countries just offered them a similar low tax rate and taken them already? If the true value of these companies is in the jobs they create rather than the taxes they raise, and all we have to offer them is tax, how come they haven't been lured away already? Maybe there are other reasons they are here

sReq | uTeK · 18-09-2018 10:55pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

Ireland because they're not so short minded to look at 14 billion compared to what the multinationals have done for this country since the 60's and to start to alienating them now would be suicide.

Larbre34 · 19-09-2018 12:50am

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Ireland because they're not so short minded to look at 14 billion compared to what the multinationals have done for this country since the 60's and to start to alienating them now would be suicide.

Absolutely.

I'd give back that 14 billion and pay 14 billion more to ensure our FDI and corporate tax policies are protected.

Some people just don't realise the benefit to the Country of long term quality employment and continued investment. The success of these policies are the envy of many countries, even much larger ones. Yes, they pay less tax on profits, but hundreds of thousands of direct and indirect jobs are the lifeblood of their local communities. We aren't Korea or the Netherlands or Switzerland, we dont have heavy industry or a monopoly on wealth handling or a major global port, this is our gig and we do it well. Without it we'd be a mossy rock in the north atlantic selling milk protein and quirky tablecloths.

ChikiChiki · 19-09-2018 1:25am

Money owed and desperately needed. Yet the Govt still pander to MNC tax needs whilst simultaneously talking about hiking PRSI. Ffs lads it's embarrassing.

Sick to the teeth of FG. A horrible shower. We can afford to take this 14bn without reputational damage. Our tax competitive advantage will still remain.

jmayo · 19-09-2018 10:19am

noodler wrote: »

Jesus.

I seen some random whataboutery on this site before but that's up there.

Yes, but it is true.
There are always one set of rules for the big guys and one set for the little guys.

Also interesting that your post is thanked by europhiles and merkel migrant supporters.

animaal · 20-09-2018 9:23am

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Money owed and desperately needed. Yet the Govt still pander to MNC tax needs whilst simultaneously talking about hiking PRSI. Ffs lads it's embarrassing.

Sick to the teeth of FG. A horrible shower. We can afford to take this 14bn without reputational damage. Our tax competitive advantage will still remain.

Money owed, possibly. And we have already been told that other EU countries will take the bulk of it. so:

- We'll take the money from Apple
- EU will take most of it from us

We'll be the country that slapped a retrospective tax bill on Apple. It doesn't matter whether we chose to do it, or whether the EU forced us. Either way, it'll now be a precedent, and it will be a real risk for other multinationals.

I wouldn't expect an immediate exodus of multinationals, but why would the likes of Intel then choose Ireland over Isreal for their next big expansion? These decisions are close enough already, with Ireland losing out on some of them.

Over time, FDI in Ireland would shrink. But hey, at least we stuck it to the evil multinationals, eh?

Padraig Mor · 20-09-2018 10:00am

animaal wrote: »

Money owed, possibly. And we have already been told that other EU countries will take the bulk of it. so:

- We'll take the money from Apple
- EU will take most of it from us
?

I can't claim to be an expert but I believe this to be incorrect - the money is due to Ireland (and the EU are trying to force Ireland to take it even though we don't want to for good reason) - but if we take it, it'll be the first and last time it happens. My understanding is as follows:

1. Apple sell stuff all over Europe but then send the money to HQ in Ireland through various iffy - but still legal - accounting tricks. They should then pay corporate tax here on all this moolah - again, this is perfectly legit.

2. Ireland then allows Apple to send the money outside of Europe without being taxed here in a blatant tax evasion process - this is illegal under European law which requires that the money is taxed somewhere in Europe - understandably so.

3. Recent EU court cases have established 2 above - that Ireland is facilitating Apple's tax evasion by not taxing it here.

4. Europe have essentially called Ireland's bluff by saying "OK, we'll let you away with Apple funneling the money to Ireland, but in that case it MUST be taxed in Ireland" - the 14 billion is the tax that Apple should have paid to Ireland but we facilitated them in not doing so.

5. Ireland's 'low corporate tax rate' is a complete red herring - no one in Europe really gives a **** about it - the real story is (a) the funneling of monies earned in the EU to Ireland without being taxed in their originating country and (b) Ireland's facilitation of tax evasion. The current legal process is (b) being tackled by Europe - but of far more importance long term is that (a) is also being dealt with by the proposed common corporate tax base - this will make Apple et al pay tax in the countries where products are actually sold, ending the funneling to Ireland - in which case no one will give two hoots about Ireland's tax rate because SFA will be taxed here. IIRC we have one large country backing our opposition to the new tax base - the UK, who are of course on the way out!

weldoninhio · 20-09-2018 10:01am

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I can't claim to be an expert but I believe this to be incorrect - the money is due to Ireland (and the EU are trying to force Ireland to take it even though we don't want to for good reason) - but if we take it, it'll be the first and last time it happens. My understanding is as follows:

1. Apple sell stuff all over Europe but then send the money to HQ in Ireland through various iffy - but still legal - accounting tricks. They should then pay corporate tax here on all this moolah - again, this is perfectly legit.

2. Ireland then allows Apple to send the money outside of Europe without being taxed here in a blatant tax evasion process - this is illegal under European law which requires that the money is taxed somewhere in Europe - understandably so.

3. Recent EU court cases have established 2 above - that Ireland is facilitating Apple's tax evasion by not taxing it here.

4. Europe have essentially called Ireland's bluff by saying "OK, we'll let you away with Apple funneling the money to Ireland, but in that case it MUST be taxed in Ireland" - the 14 billion is the tax that Apple should have paid to Ireland but we facilitated them in not doing so.

5. Ireland's 'low corporate tax rate' is a complete red herring - no one in Europe really gives a **** about it - the real story is (a) the funneling of monies earned in the EU to Ireland without being taxed in their originating country and (b) Ireland's facilitation of tax evasion. The current legal process is (b) being tackled by Europe - but of far more importance long term is that (a) is also being dealt with by the proposed common corporate tax base - this will make Apple et al pay tax in the countries where products are actually sold, ending the funneling to Ireland - in which case no one will give two hoots about Ireland's tax rate because SFA will be taxed here. IIRC we have one large country backing our opposition to the new tax base - the UK, who are of course on the way out!

Ireland will see zero cents of the money. Ireland is not owed this money.

DChancer · 20-09-2018 10:28am

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ireland will see zero cents of the money. Ireland is not owed this money.

Well the EU Commission disagree with you as do many other EU states, so we will all have to wait and see how it pans out in the EU courts in the coming years.

Deise Vu · 20-09-2018 10:38am

Padraig Mor wrote: »

........

5. Ireland's 'low corporate tax rate' is a complete red herring - no one in Europe really gives a **** about it - the real story is (a) the funneling of monies earned in the EU to Ireland without being taxed in their originating country and (b) Ireland's facilitation of tax evasion. The current legal process is (b) being tackled by Europe - but of far more importance long term is that (a) is also being dealt with by the proposed common corporate tax base - this will make Apple et al pay tax in the countries where products are actually sold, ending the funneling to Ireland - in which case no one will give two hoots about Ireland's tax rate because SFA will be taxed here. IIRC we have one large country backing our opposition to the new tax base - the UK, who are of course on the way out!

While everyone hates the idea of enormous tech companies making enormous profits and not paying taxes I cannot see how this is going to work.

All international trade is the same, a product is researched and developed in one country, then manufactured in a different, low cost, country before being shipped to the wealthier countries where a local distribution network is allowed enough margin to encourage sales and no more.

Are we going to insist Toyota and Nissan send Corporation tax to us? Are Irish Farmers going to be told send Taxes to Europe for their produce sold in European markets? Are Peugot and Citroen going to send Ireland some CT? Or are we just going to discriminate against the Tech giants? I have no idea where the EU is going with this. They should just introduce a sales tax, which is contrary to the free movement of goods, and admit they don't really like the idea of a common trade area when it doesn't work for them.

weldoninhio · 20-09-2018 10:42am

The amount of unpaid taxes to be recovered by the Irish authorities would be reduced if other countries were to require Apple to pay more taxes on the profits recorded by Apple Sales International and Apple Operations Europe for this period. This could be the case if they consider, in view of the information revealed through the Commission’s investigation, that Apple's commercial risks, sales and other activities should have been recorded in their jurisdictions. This is because the taxable profits of Apple Sales International in Ireland would be reduced if profits were recorded and taxed in other countries instead of being recorded in Ireland.

https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/%C3%A9-cinneadh-aontais-eorpaigh-nach-m%C3%B3r-do-apple-%E2%82%AC13-billi%C3%BAn-ais%C3%ADoc-le-h%C3%A9irinn_en

Geuze · 20-09-2018 11:19am

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I can't claim to be an expert but I believe this to be incorrect - the money is due to Ireland (and the EU are trying to force Ireland to take it even though we don't want to for good reason) - but if we take it, it'll be the first and last time it happens. My understanding is as follows:

Great info here:

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2016/03/apple-sales-internationalby-numbers.html

Geuze · 20-09-2018 11:20am

This may help explain:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-c8D-NxY4B8k/VvA0WXkm3zI/AAAAAAAAZtU/fENlJNqy9Ew/s1600-h/Apple%252520Sales%252520International%252520Structure%25255B8%25255D.png

Geuze · 20-09-2018 11:22am

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I can't claim to be an expert but I believe this to be incorrect - the money is due to Ireland (and the EU are trying to force Ireland to take it even though we don't want to for good reason) - but if we take it, it'll be the first and last time it happens. My understanding is as follows:

1. Apple sell stuff all over Europe but then send the money to HQ in Ireland through various iffy - but still legal - accounting tricks. They should then pay corporate tax here on all this moolah - again, this is perfectly legit.

2. Ireland then allows Apple to send the money outside of Europe without being taxed here in a blatant tax evasion process - this is illegal under European law which requires that the money is taxed somewhere in Europe - understandably so.

Please note that ASI very large profits will be taxed eventually, by the USA.

Seve OB · 20-09-2018 11:25am

OmegaRed wrote: »

Its in [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Escrow Fund, so its still Apples until the law says otherwise.[/font]

that's not what escrow means

animaal · 20-09-2018 11:46am

Padraig Mor wrote: »

2. Ireland then allows Apple to send the money outside of Europe without being taxed here in a blatant tax evasion process - this is illegal under European law which requires that the money is taxed somewhere in Europe - understandably so.

3. Recent EU court cases have established 2 above - that Ireland is facilitating Apple's tax evasion by not taxing it here.

I'm also very much in the "not an expert" camp. However, my understanding of the legal case is different from yours.

I believe the case legal to be centred on the allegation that Apple received a "sweetheart deal" when they set up here, resulting in lower taxes for them than for other entities operating in the state.

This legal case is then a look retrospectively at the tax paid, and a decision that it wasn't enough.

This is different (although not totally unrelated) to the concern in Europe that Companies are operating in various European countries but paying all their taxes in countries like Ireland.

Unless somebody with more of a clue than I have can clarify?

topper75 · 20-09-2018 1:38pm

It'd be like Ryanair being made to chase down all their passengers over the last 30 years to shake them down for extras on historically paid fares so they could hand all the money on to Aer Lingus.

How much enthusiasm would they have?

It is not refusal of €13b. It is refusal to chuck away our key economic competitive advantage. It will remain our key advantage until there is an upturn in global demand for gorse flowers, turf, and rushes.

Apple has just ponied up 14 Billion

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