The Frederick St protest and reaction

knipex · 18-09-2018 04:44PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Are the social welfare and health systems recent additions? I would say expanding the tax base to include lower incomes instead targeting more towards higher incomes is right wing. As would water charges. And if you are looking at the health system, I'd argue the reduction of benefits and increase in things like the prescription charge and drugs payment sceme cut offs are more right wing in nature, as is the big furore made around fraud in the social welfare system.

Believe what you will but the more you squeeze a small group the more likely they are to push back.

Someone on 75K pays over 35% of their income in tax. They have minimal entitlements, if the loose their jobs they get less than 14% of their salary in social welfare.
They go to hospital in a public bed their insurance is expected to pay for it.
Their kids go to school and they are the ones that are expected to make the higher voluntary contribution..

18-09-2018 04:48PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

How many of those right wing governments reduced social welfare payments or expenditure on other areas of social support?
How many of them increased it?

if you're trying to assess whether a government favours the interests of the poor, or the interests of capital-owners and the middle class, surely any balanced question would ask whether successive budgets tended to gradually increase the living conditions of the poor, or of the rich?

Luckily, we have an Economic and Social Research Institute which tells us that recent budgets have been fairly regressive, in the sense that they have tended to disproportionately damage the conditions of the poorest workers in this society.

Claw Hammer · 18-09-2018 04:49PM

knipex wrote: »

Their kids go to school and they are the ones that are expected to make the higher voluntary contribution..

Voluntary contribution is just that-voluntary! No need to pay it at all.

McMurphy · 18-09-2018 05:16PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

How many of those right wing governments reduced social welfare payments or expenditure on other areas of social support?
How many of them increased it?

Does cuts to the carers allowance/respite grant count here?

Captain Obvious · 18-09-2018 05:30PM

knipex wrote: »

Believe what you will but the more you squeeze a small group the more likely they are to push back.

Someone on 75K pays over 35% of their income in tax. They have minimal entitlements, if the loose their jobs they get less than 14% of their salary in social welfare.
They go to hospital in a public bed their insurance is expected to pay for it.
Their kids go to school and they are the ones that are expected to make the higher voluntary contribution..

Are you arguing the merit of the policies? I'm just pointing out they are more right wing than left wing ones.

blanch152 · 18-09-2018 05:51PM

Ireland has a strange mix of right-wing and left-wing policies and implementation.

Does anyone realise that the spend per capita on health in the South is 40% more than the spend per capita on health in the North of Ireland. Yet we still have posters on here crying about cuts to the carers allowance/respite grant.

Ireland puts enough money into health to be considered to have one of the most left-wing health services in the world. The problem isn't the amount of money, it isn't even the politicians, it is a combination of the incompetency and inefficiency of frontline health service personnel (e.g. it was doctors who didn't tell patients about their cervical cancer screening, it was administrators who discovered what went wrong) together with the free at point of delivery system.

France is considered to have one of the best and most equitable healthcare systems in the world, but no matter who you are, if you turn up at a doctor, you have to pay something, even if it is just five euro.

Look at the moaning about respite care cuts. I would guess that if you subsidised respite care e.g. charge €10 per day, you would be able to meet the demand all over the country. Such a charge isn't prohibitive on anyone, no matter what their income, but it would ensure that people would only look for respite care appropriately.

Similarly, both Denis O'Brien and a fully healthy 25-year old on the dole are entitled to a medical card. Some GP gets a payment for both, even though Denis would see the top doctors only and pay for it, while the healthy 25-year old won't see any doctor. More money completely wasted.

We need to reform our health service completely, and change the way be charge for it, and change the way we deliver it. It isn't right-wing to say that, when we are imposing left-wing levels of income tax to pay for the inefficient health service.

And don't get me started on the waste of money in the local authorities.

18-09-2018 06:16PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Ireland has a strange mix of right-wing and left-wing policies and implementation.

Does anyone realise that the spend per capita on health in the South is 40% more than the spend per capita on health in the North of Ireland. Yet we still have posters on here crying about cuts to the carers allowance/respite grant.

Ireland puts enough money into health to be considered to have one of the most left-wing health services in the world. The problem isn't the amount of money, it isn't even the politicians, it is a combination of the incompetency and inefficiency of frontline health service personnel (e.g. it was doctors who didn't tell patients about their cervical cancer screening, it was administrators who discovered what went wrong) together with the free at point of delivery system.

France is considered to have one of the best and most equitable healthcare systems in the world, but no matter who you are, if you turn up at a doctor, you have to pay something, even if it is just five euro.

Look at the moaning about respite care cuts. I would guess that if you subsidised respite care e.g. charge €10 per day, you would be able to meet the demand all over the country. Such a charge isn't prohibitive on anyone, no matter what their income, but it would ensure that people would only look for respite care appropriately.

Similarly, both Denis O'Brien and a fully healthy 25-year old on the dole are entitled to a medical card. Some GP gets a payment for both, even though Denis would see the top doctors only and pay for it, while the healthy 25-year old won't see any doctor. More money completely wasted.

We need to reform our health service completely, and change the way be charge for it, and change the way we deliver it. It isn't right-wing to say that, when we are imposing left-wing levels of income tax to pay for the inefficient health service.

And don't get me started on the waste of money in the local authorities.

Medical cards are means tested for everyone.

smelly sock · 18-09-2018 06:18PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Does cuts to the carers allowance/respite grant count here?

During the worst of the recession FG cut the respite care grant from 1750 to 1250. This affected people who used it to heat homes or for transport to hospitals.

They did it and didnt give a fxxk.

facehugger99 · 18-09-2018 06:23PM

knipex wrote: »

FG are a centrist party, at worst. FF are probably slightly more left, labor slightly more. Sinn Fein are a weird brand of revolutionary populist socialism but certainly further left and then you have the Trotskyites and nutjobs..(who while screaming for wealth taxes seem to do anything to fight them) Ireland does not have a mainstream right wing party. Renua tried and failed, and the new Ire exit party will (hopefully) go the same way..

I don't think the left/right denominations even apply to Irish politics. We just have different blends of populists willing to try any policy they think we garner them more votes at the next election - not a shred of principle between them.

Take the hard-left, in any other country they would be in favour of property taxes for example - in Ireland however - fiercely opposed. In fact they're fiercely opposed to any revenue-raising measure and of course fiercely opposed to any cuts to any spending.

It's all a competition to hand out the most sweets and hope the electorate reward them for it.

The primary blame for this of course rests with the electorate.

hatrickpatrick · 18-09-2018 06:46PM

Most leftists have no problem with property tax provided it doesn't apply to a person's home. The whole argument that the left opposes property tax is a ridiculous over simplification.

weldoninhio · 18-09-2018 06:58PM

knipex wrote: »

Believe what you will but the more you squeeze a small group the more likely they are to push back.

Someone on 75K pays over 35% of their income in tax. They have minimal entitlements, if the loose their jobs they get less than 14% of their salary in social welfare.
They go to hospital in a public bed their insurance is expected to pay for it.
Their kids go to school and they are the ones that are expected to make the higher voluntary contribution..

This sums it up succinctly, and in a format that the crusties and scroungers can understand, a cartoon about beer.

https://youtu.be/BomQxCG5VG4

facehugger99 · 18-09-2018 06:58PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Most leftists have no problem with property tax provided it doesn't apply to a person's home. The whole argument that the left opposes property tax is a ridiculous over simplification.

The 'left' opposes any tax that it acolytes may have to pony up for but wholeheartedly supports 'others' having to pay taxes.

hatrickpatrick · 18-09-2018 07:01PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

The 'left' opposes any tax that it acolytes may have to pony up for but wholeheartedly supports 'others' having to pay taxes.

Are you disputing my remark? I'll look for sources later when I'm on my laptop, but I distinctly remember a clear distinction being made during opposition to the property tax with taxes on commercial and second properties vs taxes on homes.

Phoebas · 18-09-2018 07:16PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Most leftists have no problem with property tax provided it doesn't apply to a person's home. The whole argument that the left opposes property tax is a ridiculous over simplification.

They're fine with property tax as long as the vast majority of people don't have to pay it?

Sounds like the same ol' 'let someone else pay' guff.

hatrickpatrick · 18-09-2018 07:23PM

Phoebas wrote: »

They're fine with property tax as long as the vast majority of people don't have to pay it?

Sounds like the same ol' 'let someone else pay' guff.

It's about making a distinction between exploitative land ownership and personal-use land ownership. Seems very solidly left wing to me.

20Cent · 18-09-2018 07:40PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Any Government that punishes the worker with excessive taxes and then hands it over to the "won't work" shower is failing badly.

Yeah vulture funds.

tayto lover · 18-09-2018 08:18PM

20Cent wrote: »

Yeah vulture funds.

Yeah yeah yeah.
There's something wrong when someone is allowed to go through his entire life without doing even one day's work. Something seriously wrong.

joe swanson · 18-09-2018 08:32PM

Just when I thought the mob in this country couldn't be any disgusting or scummy , I read the comments on this post on facebook . Shocking is not the word. Sub human filth is what a lot of them are.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=640482769684979&id=100011697856453

sexmag · 18-09-2018 08:46PM

joe swanson wrote: »

Just when I thought the mob in this country couldn't be any disgusting or scummy , I read the comments on this post on facebook . Shocking is not the word. Sub human filth is what a lot of them are.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=640482769684979&id=100011697856453

Wow,I usually have something to say but I'm actually just shocked, I'd love if we could removed the cover of Facebook and have these people in a town hall and the guards family there and see if they still spout the cowardly sh!te they are peddling there.

20Cent · 18-09-2018 09:43PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Yeah yeah yeah.
There's something wrong when someone is allowed to go through his entire life without doing even one day's work. Something seriously wrong.

Who's tjat? We are near full employment. Were at it 10 yeas ago as well. The person who doesn't work their whole life is a myth.

Ha Long Bay · 18-09-2018 09:46PM

20Cent wrote: »

Who's tjat? We are near full employment. Were at it 10 yeas ago as well. The person who doesn't work their whole life is a myth.

Ill just leave this here.

https://www.facebook.com/100007227857780/videos/2153182491599325/

tayto lover · 18-09-2018 09:47PM

20Cent wrote: »

Who's tjat? We are near full employment. Were at it 10 yeas ago as well. The person who doesn't work their whole life is a myth.

I know loads of them and I bet you do too. Lazy gits.

Seth Brundle · 18-09-2018 09:48PM

20Cent wrote: »

Who's tjat? We are near full employment. Were at it 10 yeas ago as well. The person who doesn't work their whole life is a myth.

You do understand the term "full employment", don't you?

blanch152 · 18-09-2018 09:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Medical cards are means tested for everyone.

No, they are not.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/cards-schemes/medical-card/how-to-apply/medical-cards-national-assessment-guidelines.pdf

Read Section 4.6 of the medical card guidelines.

McMurphy · 18-09-2018 09:55PM

Phoebas wrote: »

They're fine with property tax as long as the vast majority of people don't have to pay it?

Sounds like the same ol' 'let someone else pay' guff.

Young FG must have the students reciting Enda Kenny soundbites again.

18-09-2018 09:55PM

john4321 wrote: »

Ill just leave this here.

https://www.facebook.com/100007227857780/videos/2153182491599325/

Oh, Dear. Only got a one room place after all that! No wonder she’s annoyed!

sexmag · 18-09-2018 10:29PM

john4321 wrote: »

Ill just leave this here.

https://www.facebook.com/100007227857780/videos/2153182491599325/

Look i understand and am sympathetic to her plite but there has to be a point where you go "ye know what? My kids come first" she's been offered places in the country, nice places,with good schools, she could move her family there and settle and be happy, put their needs first.

She's playing the squeaky wheel gets the oil only she isn't happy with the oil and this is only instilling views in her kids that if you moan and give out enough you'll get what you want

Wheeliebin30 · 18-09-2018 10:47PM

20Cent wrote: »

Who's tjat? We are near full employment. Were at it 10 yeas ago as well. The person who doesn't work their whole life is a myth.

Highest disability claimed in Europe.

Considering our population that’s strange isn’t it??

19-09-2018 01:17AM

blanch152 wrote: »

No, they are not.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/cards-schemes/medical-card/how-to-apply/medical-cards-national-assessment-guidelines.pdf

Read Section 4.6 of the medical card guidelines.

“Medical cards are given to people with low incomes and to some people who qualify on other grounds. It entitles you to a range of health services free of charge. These include GP (family doctor) services, certain prescribed drugs, and public hospital services. PMedical cards are given to people with low incomes and to some people who qualify on other grounds. It entitles you to a range of health services free of charge. These include GP (family doctor) services, certain prescribed drugs, and public hospital services. People aged over 70 can apply for a medical card that has higher income limits than apply to people aged under 70. See Page 9. http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/downloads/guides/Guide_to_entitlements_for_over_sixties_2018.pdf

realdanbreen · 19-09-2018 08:25AM

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Voluntary contribution is just that-voluntary! No need to pay it at all.

Jut make sure that you have a large wad put aside to pay the same teachers for grinds!

The Frederick St protest and reaction

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