Apple has just ponied up 14 Billion

CruelCoin · 18-09-2018 3:20pm #1

"It has been confirmed that Apple deposited €14.3 billion into an Escrow Fund (third party account) until a full agreement has been reached."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/state-recovers-14-3bn-from-apple-over-alleged-state-aid-1.3633191

€13 billion plus a billion in interest.

Meanwhile, Ireland is still appealing this.

Whatever you may think about them having /not having to pay it, it's astonishing to me that they actually have ahead of time!

canonball5 · 18-09-2018 3:24pm

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

miece16 · 18-09-2018 3:25pm

Ireland, because this country is backwards

Deise Vu · 18-09-2018 3:26pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

"It has been confirmed that Apple deposited €14.3 billion into an Escrow Fund (third party account) until a full agreement has been reached."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/state-recovers-14-3bn-from-apple-over-alleged-state-aid-1.3633191

€13 billion plus a billion in interest.

Meanwhile, Ireland is still appealing this.

Whatever you may think about them having /not having to pay it, it's astonishing to me that they actually have ahead of time!

It costs money to have money these days and Apple have a few bob to spare:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/01/apple-earnings-q1-2018-how-much-money-does-apple-have.html

7aubzxk43m2sni · 18-09-2018 3:28pm

It's pretty sickening that the government are trying so hard to defend apple in this situation.

ARNOLD J RIMMER · 18-09-2018 3:31pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

Do you think Irelands Tax regulation should be handed over to Brussels?

7aubzxk43m2sni · 18-09-2018 3:31pm

ARNOLD J RIMMER wrote: »

Do you think Irelands Tax regulation should be handed over to Brussels?

I think we should be held to account if we break laws we've agreed to.

OmegaRed · 18-09-2018 3:32pm

Its in [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Escrow Fund, so its still Apples until the law says otherwise. And for anyone who thinks Ireland will see all off that 13bn, its EU countries who will take the majority of it. That's why Ireland are opposed to it, they wont get it and its in their best interest to ensure Apple keep it.[/font]

Seth Brundle · 18-09-2018 3:33pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

When was that ever said or are you just posting the usual guff others post about it?

uch · 18-09-2018 3:33pm

OmegaRed wrote: »

Its in [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Escrow Fund, so its still Apples until the law says otherwise. And for anyone who thinks Ireland will see all off that 13bn, its EU countries who will take the majority of it. That's why Ireland are opposed to it, they wont get it and its in their best interest to ensure Apple keep it.[/font]

Exactly, we will only be the middle men doling it out to others, let them do their own chasing

canonball5 · 18-09-2018 3:33pm

ARNOLD J RIMMER wrote: »

Do you think Irelands Tax regulation should be handed over to Brussels?

Yes I do. We have shown that we're completely incompetent when it comes to our own tax regulation and perhaps they could do a better job. At the very least they couldn't do a worse job.

amcalester · 18-09-2018 3:35pm

canonball5 wrote: »

Yes I do. We have shown that we're completely incompetent when it comes to our own tax regulation and perhaps they could do a better job. At the very least they couldn't do a worse job.

Ireland's problem is not in collecting taxes, it's how to spend what we've collected.

canonball5 · 18-09-2018 3:35pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

When was that ever said or are you just posting the usual guff others post about it?

What part of the story did you not get? The Government is refusing to accept the money, they did everything in their power not to accept it.

Deise Vu · 18-09-2018 3:35pm

Jesse Thoughtless Kazoo wrote: »

It's pretty sickening that the government are trying so hard to defend apple in this situation.

They aren't trying to defend Apple, they are trying to defend the integrity of our Corporation Tax system. Whether you agree with our system or not, we are arguing that Apple paid the correct amount in a system open to all. The EU are accusing us of having a private deal going with Apple.

I would probably agree with the EU if Luxembourg didn't have a completely crooked system overseen by Jean Claude Juncker himself and if it wasn't for little things like when U2 were told they might not be deserving of a totally tax free income they didn't relocate HQ to the Netherlands. Also, I understand the effective rate in France is about 8% despite a headline rate many times larger than that (a common theme across our holier than thou comrades in the EU).

18-09-2018 3:36pm

I expect a nuanced conversation on taxation and economics and not a bunch of mongs thinking they know what they're talking about.

OmegaRed · 18-09-2018 3:36pm

canonball5 wrote: »

ARNOLD J RIMMER wrote: »

Do you think Irelands Tax regulation should be handed over to Brussels?

Yes I do. We have shown that we're completely incompetent when it comes to our own tax regulation and perhaps they could do a better job. At the very least they couldn't do a worse job.

Untrue, we have one of the best tax regulation in the world and one of the most efficient (there is a pro side of recession and austerity after all

) I think you might be more annoyed with how that tax money is actually spent

aidanodr · 18-09-2018 3:38pm

Headline from Financial Times and Reuters on this:

Apple pays Ireland disputed back taxes ahead of appeal - FT

EU to scrap lawsuit against Ireland after Apple pays back taxes - REUTERS

Im confused. From these articles it appears that APPLE have now fully paid up taxes owed to Ireland? The debt fully discharged?

It would appear then that Ireland has decided not to lodge the cheque so to speak into IRELAND PLC account but instead its IRELAND who have popped it into this third party escrow account for the moment on foot of a case.

TBH I thought it was going to be APPLE & IRELAND placing the cash into an escrow account and that the transaction remains as tax not owed yet as far as Ireland and Apple are concerned until the outcome of the case both Apple and Ireland are fighting against the EU has been decided?

Get my meaning?

Seth Brundle · 18-09-2018 3:39pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What part of the story did you not get? The Government is refusing to accept the money, they did everything in their power not to accept it.

They havent been trying everything. They have stuck to the line that it was not all due to us.

ted1 · 18-09-2018 3:41pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What part of the story did you not get? The Government is refusing to accept the money, they did everything in their power not to accept it.

Because it’s nit ours and Europe has already said if we get it. It’ll be divided between the countries it originated sold.

So if 10 iPhones was sold in France they’ll get tax for them , if 1 was sold in Ireland we get that tax and so on

paddydriver · 18-09-2018 3:41pm

Must be a bunch of lads getting fairly locked and well fed most nights off the week of the interest and commission being earned on that wedge!

Gunmonkey · 18-09-2018 3:47pm

And cue "The guberment can use that €13billion to build thousands of social houses and increase welfare to €70,000 a year and build a statue of Joe Duffy for O'Connell St" posts in....3....2...

weldoninhio · 18-09-2018 3:58pm

ted1 wrote: »

Because it’s nit ours and Europe has already said if we get it. It’ll be divided between the countries it originated sold.

So if 10 iPhones was sold in France they’ll get tax for them , if 1 was sold in Ireland we get that tax and so on

Apple are fully tax compliant with everything sold in Ireland. We aren't owed anything. We get nothing. Zilch. Zip. Nada.

Something the moronic masses seem to have missed. They think Ireland is 14bn richer right now.

Gimme A Pound · 18-09-2018 4:03pm

miece16 wrote: »

Ireland, because this country is backwards

It's because of the bigger, long-term picture and to avoid the risk of massive employers pulling out or ruling out Ireland as a destination.

It's easier to buy into soundbites like "Ireland is backwards" though.

Fr_Dougal · 18-09-2018 4:06pm

The money is just resting in our account

Agent Coulson · 18-09-2018 4:08pm

Just give everyone in the Country a free iPhone & iPad and call it quits.

Frank Bullitt · 18-09-2018 4:13pm

It should be used to pay for the housing crisis according to those in the know on Twitter.

Sounds legit.

murpho999 · 18-09-2018 4:13pm

Do people who don't get that the government are trying to stop the EU from scrapping Ireland's low corporate tax rate that has ensured we have hundreds of thousands of jobs here?

If that goes then so will the companies and the jobs.

Sleepy · 18-09-2018 4:13pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Just give everyone in the Country a free iPhone & iPad and call it quits.

No thanks, I'd rather get my toys from a tech firm rather than a marketing one.

Grayson · 18-09-2018 4:13pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

The way the government view it is that they don't want to see it happen to other multinationals. It's one thing to change the rules going forward however a company would be really worried if they found that the rules could be changed retroactively.

In this case the government gave apple a deal, it turns out that deal was illegal. I think they should pay. However you can see why are fighting it. They don't want any other company to think that they could be hit for additional taxes in the future despite honouring the agreement they have.

jmayo · 18-09-2018 4:16pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

Was it one of your mates down the pub or a shinner wantabe that came up with that brilliant synopsis of the situation.

And as OmegaRed stated Ireland aint destined to get much of that 14 odd billion.

Only morons actually think that the other EU states will allow Ireland keep taxes on revenues raised in their states.

miece16 wrote: »

Ireland, because this country is backwards

Yeah it is backwards to not want Brussels to dictate how we collect taxes from foreign companies based here.

I do agree they should be paying more tax, but no fecking way do I want those fookers in the EU or in major EU capitals dictating how it is done.
They have long wanted to screw our low corporation tax because their own economies can't compete.
Fook them and the expensive chauffeur driven cars they rode in on.

canonball5 wrote: »

Yes I do. We have shown that we're completely incompetent when it comes to our own tax regulation and perhaps they could do a better job. At the very least they couldn't do a worse job.

Care to give us examples of how our tax regulation is poor here now?

Let me guess "Tax the rich" ehhh.

BTW I can give you copious amounts of examples of how the revenue raised is wasted, but that not regulation, it is spending.

Do you really think that Brussels have our best interests at heart ?

murpho999 · 18-09-2018 4:18pm

Sleepy wrote: »

No thanks, I'd rather get my toys from a tech firm rather than a marketing one.

That's right, Samsung, who were proven to have copied Apple's designs do not do any marketing,

Riddle101 · 18-09-2018 4:23pm

Give me the €14 billion to mind. I'll keep it safe in my account for them.

irishproduce · 18-09-2018 4:31pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

Essentially it all distills down to who needs who more.

Country category A)
They have a huge population (base) and significant international authority, they extract tax on the basis that they will happily accept as much as is going to be paid and it is the payers issue if they would like to challenge that.

Country category
Much smaller population (base) and very little international authority. Country B is very happy to have a company resident who has a huge customer base and who has a significant market authority.
This country is going to accept as much tax as was promised between the two parties when the agreement was struck to locate in country B.

That is it essentially.
In this case, Ireland needs Apple more than Apple needs Ireland.

That would not be the case with Canada/ France/ Australia for example.
But there are pros and cons to being in a small country. Most pressing is that we are not all up on top of each other packed in like some places. Quality of life here is great, so let's continue to make agreements with the likes of Apple I say.

Agent Coulson · 18-09-2018 4:31pm

Riddle101 wrote: »

Give me the €14 billion to mind. I'll keep it safe in my account for them.

Just for a year and you'll never have to work again from the interest alone when you hand back the €14 billion.

NIMAN · 18-09-2018 4:32pm

Apple can easily afford this, its like a few cent falling out of their pocket.

I say take it, tell the world we are using it for the good of the Irish people, to try to solve this housing crisis, and spend it on that.

I think Apple won't mind, and won't move all their business out of the country as some fear.

Worth a punt?

aidanodr · 18-09-2018 4:33pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Do people who don't get that the government are trying to stop the EU from scrapping Ireland's low corporate tax rate that has ensured we have hundreds of thousands of jobs here?

If that goes then so will the companies and the jobs.

Has the story moved on a bit?

Irish May Face EU Tax Pressure in Return for Brexit Support - BLOOMBERG

riffmongous · 18-09-2018 4:34pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Do people who don't get that the government are trying to stop the EU from scrapping Ireland's low corporate tax rate that has ensured we have hundreds of thousands of jobs here?

If that goes then so will the companies and the jobs.

Where will they go?

Hitman3000 · 18-09-2018 4:34pm

Deleted User wrote:

I expect a nuanced conversation on taxation and economics and not a bunch of mongs thinking they know what they're talking about.

In AH??? lol. You should be banned alone for the use of the word "mong".

Hitman3000 · 18-09-2018 4:35pm

Agent Coulson wrote:

Just give everyone in the Country a free iPhone & iPad and call it quits.

Prefer a Samsung 8 if it's all the same.

Turnipman · 18-09-2018 4:35pm

canonball5 wrote: »

Yes I do. We have shown that we're completely incompetent when it comes to our own tax regulation and perhaps they could do a better job. At the very least they couldn't do a worse job.

The level of economic and fiscal ignorance displayed by some posters on this thread is genuinely staggering. :eek:

NIMAN · 18-09-2018 4:39pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Do people who don't get that the government are trying to stop the EU from scrapping Ireland's low corporate tax rate that has ensured we have hundreds of thousands of jobs here?

If that goes then so will the companies and the jobs.

So if Ireland's corp tax rate is made the same as rest of Europe, all the multinationals will up sticks and leave Ireland because these companies can get the same tax rate elsewhere?

That doesn't make sense, when they have operations already up and running here, staff in place, buildings secured etc.

CPTM · 18-09-2018 4:40pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

A country who's trying to convince the large corporations of the world to come to Ireland to do business. Ireland is all about jobs right now and keeping them. More people earning and spending. Do you think the EU would care about our jobs if Apple upped and left to Poland?

CPTM · 18-09-2018 4:50pm

NIMAN wrote: »

So if Ireland's corp tax rate is made the same as rest of Europe, all the multinationals will up sticks and leave Ireland because these companies can get the same tax rate elsewhere?

That doesn't make sense, when they have operations already up and running here, staff in place, buildings secured etc.

If their staff can't find anywhere to live and the wages are cheaper elsewhere I can see some reasons to pack up and leave. What about attracting foreign investment - The next Googles/Apples? They will come, and they will leave when they see the state of our housing/health/immigration system. Do you know, to get a critically skilled worker into the country (a worker which we've described as something have have a vital need for) it is currently taking over 4 months to process. England can process this within 2 weeks. I wouldn't come near ireland if I were a multinational company aside from the tax break. We don't even have good weather for the senior decision makers to go golfing in!

Alpha_zero · 18-09-2018 4:57pm

Europe motivation behind their stance on Apple is political, many companies received the same sort of state aid as Apple did.

Apple probably are one of the largest employers in this country and their large scale presence has facilitated many other tech companies to develop and generate employment.

What if apple were to scale down its operations here.

Alpha_zero · 18-09-2018 4:58pm

Netherlands and Luxembourg are popular European destinations that also offer the same bespoke tax arrangements as Ireland.

noodler · 18-09-2018 5:00pm

God, so many inaccuracies.

Its under appeal by Apple so it can't be spent.

Wed end up having to repatriate it to third countries. It isn't our money.

ARNOLD J RIMMER · 18-09-2018 5:07pm

Alpha_zero wrote: »

Netherlands and Luxembourg are popular European destinations that also offer the same bespoke tax arrangements as Ireland.

Yeah, Juncker didn't have an issue with it when prime minister of Luxembourg.

ARNOLD J RIMMER · 18-09-2018 5:08pm

noodler wrote: »

God, so many inaccuracies.

Its under appeal by Apple so it can't be spent.

Wed end up having to repatriate it to third countries. It isn't our money.

Its under appeal from the Irish Government also.

OldMrBrennan83 · 18-09-2018 5:10pm

miece16 wrote: »

Ireland, because this country is backwards

Jobs are worth more.

facehugger99 · 18-09-2018 5:10pm

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

A country that realises the importance of the FDI sector to its' economy?

Probably the main reason our economy doesn't look like Greece's.

jmayo · 18-09-2018 5:26pm

NIMAN wrote: »

So if Ireland's corp tax rate is made the same as rest of Europe, all the multinationals will up sticks and leave Ireland because these companies can get the same tax rate elsewhere?

That doesn't make sense, when they have operations already up and running here, staff in place, buildings secured etc.

Remember Dell moving manufacturing to Poland.

You have probably more chance of hanging on to someone like Intel who have some major capital investment here, but the likes of your software development companies or internet based companies with development, management, support, finance based here could move very quickly to a more tax friendly environment.
That means Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Paypal, Linkedin, eBay could move if they needed to.

Watch how fast car companies based in UK are going to be moving manufacturing to the likes of Slovakia if there is a hard Brexit.

Nissan, Toyota, BMW, Ford, Jaguar-Landrover (Tata) have all warned British government that the industry directly employing over 850,000 people (in manufacturing and component supply) and generating annual turnover of over $110 billion is at stake.

Alpha_zero wrote: »

Europe motivation behind their stance on Apple is political, many companies received the same sort of state aid as Apple did.

Apple probably are one of the largest employers in this country and their large scale presence has facilitated many other tech companies to develop and generate employment.

What if apple were to scale down its operations here.

Hell the french bailed out PSA (Peugeot Citroen group) in 2014 when it looked like their GM deal had turned sour and they would lay off anything up to 10,000 staff in France.
They claimed it wasn't state aid since they only took a 13% stake in the company.

These are the sames shytes forever carping about us giving state aid to companies through low corporate taxes. :mad:

Apple has just ponied up 14 Billion

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