Improving Football

Xenophile · 13-09-2018 4:02pm #1

I saw a suggestion from a former player advocating that the number of players be reduced to 13. I am in agreement with this suggestion.

Xenophile · 13-09-2018 4:08pm

I suggest that all hand passes must go forward. Unless the ball is clearly seen to go forward a free kick is to be awarded to the opposing team.

stooge · 13-09-2018 4:11pm

make the pitch narrower. keep the length

or ban handpassing altogether

blanch152 · 13-09-2018 4:18pm

stooge wrote: »

make the pitch narrower. keep the length

or ban handpassing altogether

If you make the pitch narrower, you help the defensive teams.

tritium · 13-09-2018 5:33pm

Minimum of four players in the opposition half at all times

MattressRick · 13-09-2018 11:07pm

I've seen the 13 a side thing recommended by some ex county players but Dublin will still handpass the ball to death if they need to get through 11 men back inside a 45 yard line.

Would eliminating the bounce and making players only solo help? Players always use the bounce after they break through tackles. Only allowing solos would make it a bit easier to dispossess. Would free up the game a bit. Hurling has a good few turnovers, players have to solo on the stick and the balls there to be flicked away, this allows more end to end stuff.

LeinsterDub · 13-09-2018 11:19pm

You need to to either encourage the attack or depower the defense.

One option would be to make the goals wider so attacking teams can shoot from tighter angles
This would in turn force defenses to attempt to win the ball rather than just sitting back.

The option of having to have 4 players in the opposite half would only work if it's only applied to the defending side otherwise you'll just have 10 v 10 and the same problem as now.

Fann Linn · 13-09-2018 11:30pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You need to to either encourage the attack or depower the defense.

One option would be to make the goals wider so attacking teams can shoot from tighter angles
This would in turn force defenses to attempt to win the ball rather than just sitting back.

The option of having to have 4 players in the opposite half would only work if it's only applied to the defending side otherwise you'll just have 10 v 10 and the same problem as now.

This Dublin team have no problem scoring as the current stats attest. The average score by Dublin in 2018 was 27.5 points per game as opposed to 25.7 ppg in 2017 as opposed to 20.9 ppg in 2016.
Widening the goals might just give Dublin a slight advantage over everyone elseðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜Š

StupidLikeAFox · 13-09-2018 11:34pm

The demise of football is greatly exagerrated

LeinsterDub · 13-09-2018 11:42pm

Fann Linn wrote: »

This Dublin team have no problem scoring as the current stats attest. The average score by Dublin in 2018 was 27.5 points per game as opposed to 25.7 ppg in 2017 as opposed to 20.9 ppg in 2016.
Widening the goals might just give Dublin a slight advantage over everyone elseðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜ŠðŸ˜Š

What does that stat look like if you exclude Leinster?

Agus · 14-09-2018 12:46pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You need to to either encourage the attack or depower the defense.

One option would be to make the goals wider so attacking teams can shoot from tighter angles
This would in turn force defenses to attempt to win the ball rather than just sitting back.

The option of having to have 4 players in the opposite half would only work if it's only applied to the defending side otherwise you'll just have 10 v 10 and the same problem as now.

Your description of "10 v 10" would still make it a lot easier for the attacking team because it leaves much more space than if 14 or 15 of the defending team are in their own half covvering the space. Field lacrosse has an "offside" rule llimiting the number of players that can be in each half and it seems to work. If a similar proposal is ever tried in football to see if it's actually workable and possible to officiate, you'd probably need to have both the attacking and the defending teams having designated backs and forwards (clearly marked with different jerseys like the goalkeeper) who must stay within their area of the field.

Paulzx · 14-09-2018 12:52pm

Reducing to 13 a side is not the answer. A full GAA pitch is easily big enough to accommadate 30 players.

The problem arises when a team wishes to place all of their players in a third of the pitch and their only priority is to stop the other team playing while having minimal ambition to actually play themsleves.

This needs to be the starting point for any rule tweaks.

What can be done to make crowding all your players in your own half of no tactical benefit?

I don't have a defintive answer to this but if a solution is found it will open the game up again irrespective of whether you hand pass or not

The Lost Sheep · 14-09-2018 1:07pm

Xenophile wrote: »

I saw a suggestion from a former player advocating that the number of players be reduced to 13. I am in agreement with this suggestion.

I think you need to do more than just reduce playing numbers. Their may be more space but teams will play same way. To improve things you need to tweak the rules of the game

stooge wrote: »

make the pitch narrower. keep the length

or ban handpassing altogether

As already said making the pitch narrower makes defences stronger and the defensive focused teams far stronger.

ThunbergsAreGo · 14-09-2018 1:16pm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

The demise of football is greatly exagerrated

Exactly, teams becoming smarter and more tactically aware should not necessitate a rule change especially those which only seem to aid a defensive mindset

Coillte_Bhoy · 14-09-2018 1:47pm

I think it would be next to impossible to officiate the 4 players in the half suggestion

ThunbergsAreGo · 14-09-2018 1:48pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I think it would be next to impossible to officiate the 4 players in the half suggestion

Is there any other sport that does it?

fieldofsheep · 14-09-2018 3:38pm

My own suggestion would be to really tighten up the rules around the mechanics of the handpass - I'd ban open hand passes (fist pass only), and police the motion of the hand holding the ball to prevent the 'throw' style pass.
Going further, I'd even stipulate that the ball has to be in the air to hand pass, similar to hurling - you can't hand pass the ball with it resting in the palm of your non-striking hand!

LoughNeagh2017 · 14-09-2018 6:34pm

Minors used to play 13 a side in some club leagues

Felexicon · 14-09-2018 7:13pm

fieldofsheep wrote: »

My own suggestion would be to really tighten up the rules around the mechanics of the handpass - I'd ban open hand passes (fist pass only), and police the motion of the hand holding the ball to prevent the 'throw' style pass.
Going further, I'd even stipulate that the ball has to be in the air to hand pass, similar to hurling - you can't hand pass the ball with it resting in the palm of your non-striking hand!

I curious as to how this would improve the game?

Fann Linn · 14-09-2018 9:02pm

Felexicon wrote: »

I curious as to how this would improve the game?

It wouldn't. People are just pulling crazy ideas outta the air now. And trying to turn football into hurling at the same time.
Mad Ted.

Fann Linn · 14-09-2018 9:07pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I think you need to do more than just reduce playing numbers. Their may be more space but teams will play same way. To improve things you need to tweak the rules of the game

As already said making the pitch narrower makes defences stronger and the defensive focused teams far stronger.

When Tyrone narrowed the pitch in Omagh, Jim Gavin stated that it just brought his forwards nearer to the goal.

FastFullBack · 14-09-2018 9:08pm

Been watching AFL the last few weeks and really like the mark. It really promotes 2 of the best facets of the game;kicking and high fielding.

It could be something the GAA look at for football. After the mark you have 5 seconds to kick so it really shouldn’t slow the game down. It would really promote kicking which would reduce hand passing. It would also bring lots more high fielding into the game. Could it work?

Stoner · 14-09-2018 9:18pm

FastFullBack wrote:

It could be something the GAA look at for football. After the mark you have 5 seconds to kick so it really shouldnâ€™t slow the game down. It would really promote kicking which would reduce hand passing. It would also bring lots more high fielding into the game. Could it work?

There is already a mark from kickouts. It's been good, brought fielding back.

FastFullBack · 14-09-2018 9:23pm

Stoner wrote: »

There is already a mark from kickouts. It's been good, brought fielding back.

Was that there in championship this year?

The Lost Sheep · 14-09-2018 9:24pm

FastFullBack wrote: »

Was that there in championship this year?

Yes and has been for few years

MattressRick · 14-09-2018 10:06pm

Stoner wrote: »

There is already a mark from kickouts. It's been good, brought fielding back.

What about all over the field?

The Lost Sheep · 14-09-2018 10:46pm

Stoner wrote: »

There is already a mark from kickouts. It's been good, brought fielding back.

Its been good but should be able to call a mark all over the pitch not just from kick offs.

FastFullBack · 15-09-2018 9:30am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its been good but should be able to call a mark all over the pitch not just from kick offs.

Ya I think all over the field should be looked at. It would be a radical change so will take time. But you can really see in AFL it promotes good accurate 20-30 foot passes. And obviously lots of great high fielding. Who wouldn't want this in football.

I've heard there is talk of potentially trialling a mark inside the 21 if it's kicked from outside the 45, this is a start but really only promotes the Kieran donaghy style of football

Coillte_Bhoy · 15-09-2018 10:02am

naughtb4 wrote: »

Is there any other sport that does it?

Don't know tbh, but gaelic football is so difficult to referee anyway that adding this to the refs responsibilities would be crazy imo

bucketybuck · 15-09-2018 10:20am

To the best of my knowledge the tackle in GAA football is defined by the fact that you are supposed to tackle the ball, not the man. Block the ball, knock the ball out of the attackers hands, intercept the ball etc etc. Instead, we get multiple men surrounding a player and effectively punching his arms and body until he gets done for overcarrying, or boxing the player in on all sides without once even trying to touch the ball.

You would immediately improve the game a thousand fold simply by enforcing that law. The whistle should go every single time a defender grabs an arm, grabs a shirt, kneels down on or wraps his arms around a player who is prone.

As it stands it is far too easy for a defender to drag the attackers down to their level, and as such it makes no sense for weaker teams with weaker players to try and play through it. If the tackle was properly enforced it would immediately encourage faster and more mobile attackers, and weaker counties would try to develop those types of players instead of turning to the grinding defensive tactics that are the only leveller they have.

The GAA don't need to invent any new rules or change numbers or anything like that, they just need to enforce the rule they have.

freedominacup · 15-09-2018 10:30am

Change the football. Make it lighter. Make it easier for a defender to relieve pressure on his defence with a long clearance. Also increases the distance from which forwards can potentially score. Harder to mass defences over a bigger area.

Rugby and soccer balls have changed utterly in the past 30 years but we sre still playing with the same ball that was used in the eighties.

StupidLikeAFox · 15-09-2018 10:44am

freedominacup wrote: »

Change the football. Make it lighter.

TCDStudent1 · 15-09-2018 1:22pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its been good but should be able to call a mark all over the pitch not just from kick offs.

I wouldn't be in favour of all over the field. You could see in international tukes that teams tend to hold onto the ball by giving easy passes to Mark when seeing out a match. The mark should be in the midfield zone from a kickout and full forward zone throughout the match. That gives a real incentive to deliver a long high ball into full forward.

Parkinson had a very good podcast a couple of weeks ago where he discussed some options to improve football.

The Lost Sheep · 15-09-2018 2:00pm

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I wouldn't be in favour of all over the field. You could see in international tukes that teams tend to hold onto the ball by giving easy passes to Mark when seeing out a match. The mark should be in the midfield zone from a kickout and full forward zone throughout the match. That gives a real incentive to deliver a long high ball into full forward.

Parkinson had a very good podcast a couple of weeks ago where he discussed some options to improve football.

You dont have to stop play from a mark and if managed correctly you can get teams to simply play through it if they want. and why only 2 zones on the pitch when it should be the whole pitch as it rewards high fielding throughout the pitch as well as long accurate kick passing.

TCDStudent1 · 15-09-2018 4:14pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You dont have to stop play from a mark and if managed correctly you can get teams to simply play through it if they want. and why only 2 zones on the pitch when it should be the whole pitch as it rewards high fielding throughout the pitch as well as long accurate kick passing.

If you apply it across the whole pitch, you will get lads kicking a ball sideways 20 yards for an easy mark. This is common practice in International Rules (and AFL as well I guess) as a method to run down the clock.

OldMrBrennan83 · 15-09-2018 4:15pm

Disagree completely on the 13.

Telling two kids at every age group in every club to sit down shouldn't be an option.

_

Xenophile · 15-09-2018 4:33pm

freedominacup wrote: »

Change the football. Make it lighter.

About time we saw a few scores from volleys and headers.

The_Honeybadger · 15-09-2018 4:37pm

Would a mark inside the 21 not be a disadvantage to the attacking team if there is a clear goal chance on.

The Lost Sheep · 15-09-2018 5:45pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge the tackle in GAA football is defined by the fact that you are supposed to tackle the ball, not the man. Block the ball, knock the ball out of the attackers hands, intercept the ball etc etc. Instead, we get multiple men surrounding a player and effectively punching his arms and body until he gets done for overcarrying, or boxing the player in on all sides without once even trying to touch the ball.

You would immediately improve the game a thousand fold simply by enforcing that law. The whistle should go every single time a defender grabs an arm, grabs a shirt, kneels down on or wraps his arms around a player who is prone.

As it stands it is far too easy for a defender to drag the attackers down to their level, and as such it makes no sense for weaker teams with weaker players to try and play through it. If the tackle was properly enforced it would immediately encourage faster and more mobile attackers, and weaker counties would try to develop those types of players instead of turning to the grinding defensive tactics that are the only leveller they have.

The GAA don't need to invent any new rules or change numbers or anything like that, they just need to enforce the rule they have.

The tackle rule is a joke and a proper tackle needs to be put in place. You are supposed to play the ball/tackle the ball but that needs to change for things to really improve.

freedominacup wrote: »

Change the football. Make it lighter. Make it easier for a defender to relieve pressure on his defence with a long clearance. Also increases the distance from which forwards can potentially score. Harder to mass defences over a bigger area.

Rugby and soccer balls have changed utterly in the past 30 years but we sre still playing with the same ball that was used in the eighties.

Making the ball lighter isnt a good step forward.

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

If you apply it across the whole pitch, you will get lads kicking a ball sideways 20 yards for an easy mark. This is common practice in International Rules (and AFL as well I guess) as a method to run down the clock.

You might but you will also see plenty try longer kicks with the chance to have a free kick further up field. And having teams use it to run clock down is far better than all the pulling dragging etc we see and negative play already in the game

Patww79 wrote: »

Disagree completely on the 13.

Telling two kids at every age group in every club to sit down shouldn't be an option.

How many teams do you see with 20+ players and you can always provide enough games for all kids with correct competition structures

mickeyk wrote: »

Would a mark inside the 21 not be a disadvantage to the attacking team if there is a clear goal chance on.

A player doesnt have to stop and take the mark they can simply play on so it doesnt have to be a disadvantage to attacking team

OldMrBrennan83 · 15-09-2018 5:47pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How many teams do you see with 20+ players and you can always provide enough games for all kids with correct competition structures

It's still two less. No matter what way it's spun, 15 to 13 is always going to be two less.

The Lost Sheep · 15-09-2018 5:56pm

Patww79 wrote: »

It's still two less. No matter what way it's spun, 15 to 13 is always going to be two less.

It isnt and shouldnt be put in as simple terms of that. There will always be game time found for kids with proper structures in place and 15 a side isnt always better. You put in rotating subs(up to 10/12 per game) and all kids can get plenty of game time

OldMrBrennan83 · 15-09-2018 5:59pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isnt and shouldnt be put in as simple terms of that. There will always be game time found for kids with proper structures in place and 15 a side isnt always better. You put in rotating subs(up to 10/12 per game) and all kids can get plenty of game time

It'll still be less time if only 13 are allowed on the pitch at the same time.

blanch152 · 17-09-2018 11:20pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You dont have to stop play from a mark and if managed correctly you can get teams to simply play through it if they want. and why only 2 zones on the pitch when it should be the whole pitch as it rewards high fielding throughout the pitch as well as long accurate kick passing.

Why don't we add two extra posts like in International Rules as well?

If people want to turn football into International Rules, go ahead, but I won't be watching it.

The Lost Sheep · 17-09-2018 11:22pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Why don't we add two extra posts like in International Rules as well?

If people want to turn football into International Rules, go ahead, but I won't be watching it.

Not looking to turn gaelic into anything bar a much better sport to watch as well as easier to ref/manage. Current rule book and way game is played is terrible and needs to change

Niles Crane · 17-09-2018 11:36pm

Colm O'Rourke suggested in his Sindo piece this week that the first thing that should be done is to draw up a set of guiding principles for the sport so we get an idea first of exactly what we want the sport to be.

Happen to think that's quite a good starting point.

blanch152 · 17-09-2018 11:37pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not looking to turn gaelic into anything bar a much better sport to watch as well as easier to ref/manage. Current rule book and way game is played is terrible and needs to change

Game is much better now than in say 1980, when the football was awful.

We had one of the highest scoring finals ever this year, what more do people want?

Fann Linn · 17-09-2018 11:38pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Game is much better now than in say 1980, when the football was awful.

We had one of the highest scoring finals ever this year, what more do people want?

Anyone bar Dublin winning I suppose.

bucketybuck · 17-09-2018 11:40pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Game is much better now than in say 1980, when the football was awful.

We had one of the highest scoring finals ever this year, what more do people want?

A game that a responsible parent would let their kids play, for a start.

I'd take a modicum of respect given to club players ahead of any high scoring final.

Fann Linn · 17-09-2018 11:42pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

A game that a responsible parent would let their kids play, for a start.

I'd take a modicum of respect given to club players ahead of any high scoring final.

Club games in Tyrone included?

sicknotexi · 17-09-2018 11:47pm

If you're hand passed to then you can't hand pass.

Can't punch the ball from your hand for a point.

Can't score a goal with your hand.

Black card system abolished

Basically encourage a kicking game and not one so reliant on running.

Mr. Incognito · 18-09-2018 9:55am

A referee in each half for all games and instant replay decisions in the quarter finals onwards.

Publishing and enforcing the rules and applying them consistently.

Improving Football

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