Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

Moflojo · 10-09-2018 10:22AM

average_runner wrote: »

That video is just scary, how silly kids are.

Hey, let's create an environment that is fundamentally dangerous, in the name of "progress", and let's also condition society to blame the most vulnerable people for not interacting safely with the death machines that we have incorporated into their daily lives.

Danjamin1 · 10-09-2018 10:29AM

Moflojo wrote: »

Hey, let's create an environment that is fundamentally dangerous, in the name of "progress", and let's also condition society to blame the most vulnerable people for not interacting safely with the death machines that we have incorporated into their daily lives.

To be fair that video does look like the kids are being stupid, they run blindly out from behind their bus, all the other kids go down the grass verge. Some of the kids who tried to cross the road double back and go that way after the truck stops, I would guess that perhaps there's a pedestrian tunnel that leads them under the road. I certainly don't agree with victim blaming and the truck looks to be moving at a fair pace but if he's going within the speed limit and there's not supposed to be pedestrians crossing the road there you could hardly say he's at fault.

Moflojo · 10-09-2018 10:40AM

Danjamin1 wrote: »

To be fair that video does look like the kids are being stupid, they run blindly out from behind their bus, all the other kids go down the grass verge. Some of the kids who tried to cross the road double back and go that way after the truck stops, I would guess that perhaps there's a pedestrian tunnel that leads them under the road. I certainly don't agree with victim blaming and the truck looks to be moving at a fair pace but if he's going within the speed limit and there's not supposed to be pedestrians crossing the road there you could hardly say he's at fault.

There is a strong argument that the driver should have anticipated passengers alighting from the bus.

In the US for example, all traffic in both directions is supposed to stop when a school bus is stopping to collect or drop off children. This is specifically to minimise the risk for children crossing the road to get on or off the bus.

We have been conditioned, in less than a century, to accept high speed motor traffic as the absolute norm on our roads and as a result we frequently see comments, like the one from average runner, which thoughtlessly blame the most vulnerable people without questioning if the fundamentally dangerous environment really needs to be that way in the first place.

Danjamin1 · 10-09-2018 10:50AM

Moflojo wrote: »

There is a strong argument that the driver should have anticipated passengers alighting from the bus.

In the US for example, all traffic in both directions is supposed to stop when a school bus is stopping to collect or drop off children. This is specifically to minimise the risk for children crossing the road to get on or off the bus.

We have been conditioned, in less than a century, to accept high speed motor traffic as the absolute norm on our roads and as a result we frequently see comments, like the one from average runner, which thoughtlessly blame the most vulnerable people without questioning if the fundamentally dangerous environment really needs to be that way in the first place.

Yeah I did think the truck should have been going slower as that would be common sense but as I know nothing of the road laws in Norway, nor the layout of the road for both traffic & pedestrians so it's hard to blame the truck, you can only really commend the quick reactions of the driver & the braking technology which prevented a catastrophic incident. The only party clearly in the wrong are the kids running blindly into the road.

Tombo2001 · 10-09-2018 11:18AM

Danjamin1 wrote: »

To be fair that video does look like the kids are being stupid, they run blindly out from behind their bus, all the other kids go down the grass verge. Some of the kids who tried to cross the road double back and go that way after the truck stops, I would guess that perhaps there's a pedestrian tunnel that leads them under the road. I certainly don't agree with victim blaming and the truck looks to be moving at a fair pace but if he's going within the speed limit and there's not supposed to be pedestrians crossing the road there you could hardly say he's at fault.

Come on now - they are young kids - they look under 10. That is perfectly within the realms of how you might expect an 8 or 9 year old to behave. If a reindeer ran out on the road, would you be saying 'well the deer was clearly the party in the wrong here'.....

Of course it would be stupid if adults did it. But they are not adults, and to state the obvious you cant judge them by what would be expected of an adult, you judge them by what would be expected of an 8 year old, and that is certainly within what should be expected from 8 year olds. Some 8-10 year olds will be sensible, some wont.

I had a similar thing last year walking back from Croke Park along Clonliffe Road; closed to traffic and the kids were playing tag as we walked along. Crossed the busy junction at Drumcondra Road and then walking along Iona Road - one of the kids suddenly started the tag game again, the other kid sprinted out on the road to be avoid being tagged. Thats what kids do!!

Absolutely no way should they be getting off there, unsupervised.

As a corrolary in Dublin, and of relevance to the discussion, one thing that really alarms me is the amount of young teenagers I see cycling. The roads are not fit for purpose for children to cycle on them. You cant assume a 13 year old will know the rules of the road or will be able to look out for danger, especially when they are going around in groups of 3 or 4.

benjamin d · 10-09-2018 11:32AM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

As a corrolary in Dublin, and of relevance to the discussion, one thing that really alarms me is the amount of young teenagers I see cycling. The roads are not fit for purpose for children to cycle on them. You cant assume a 13 year old will know the rules of the road or will be able to look out for danger, especially when they are going around in groups of 3 or 4.

Completely disagree with this - we need more young kids cycling.

You're right, you can't assume a 13 year old will know the rules of the road, that's a big part of the reason grown, competent adults are tested and licensed to be allowed to drive on the road; they have the responsibility to be aware of the dangers to vulnerable road users. The more vulnerable road users there are on the roads the more drivers will be forced to accept their responsibility to drive safely.

A 13 year old is perfectly entitled to use the road, a driver of a 2 tonne car is only "licenced" to use it. We need to start attributing responsibility for road safety to those actually responsible for the danger.

Tombo2001 · 10-09-2018 11:38AM

benjamin d wrote: »

Completely disagree with this - we need more young kids cycling.

You're right, you can't assume a 13 year old will know the rules of the road, that's a big part of the reason grown, competent adults are tested and licensed to be allowed to drive on the road; they have the responsibility to be aware of the dangers to vulnerable road users. The more vulnerable road users are on the roads the more drivers will be forced to accept their responsibility to drive safely.

A 13 year old is perfectly entitled to use the road, a driver of a 2 tonne car is only "licenced" to use it. We need to start attributing responsibility for road safety to those actually responsible for the danger.

Hang on - at what point did I say we dont need more kids cycling? I never said that so I dont know why are disagreeing with something I didnt say.

What I did say is that Irish roads are not safe for young teenagers to cycle on.

Its all well and good to say, well its up to drivers to drive safely and give them extra due care and attention.

Nice sentiment, but it wont happen.

Look at the video that was just posted, and the response - the kids were being stupid. And thats coming from people who are cyclists......

My message to any 12 year old out there would be - if you are going to cycle, then stay on the footpath. If its a housing estate fine, but do you really want a 12 or 13 year old - if it was your kid - cycling along any of the main roads between Dublin City centre and its suburbs? Or along busy country roads with no bike lane?

Incidentally, what would change my mind on this is if speed limits were drastically reduced - for example roads like Drumcondra Road - I think it should be no more that 30km per hour.

benjamin d · 10-09-2018 11:49AM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Hang on - at what point did I say we dont need more kids cycling? I never said that so I dont know why are disagreeing with something I didnt say.

What I did say is that Irish roads are not safe for young teenagers to cycle on.

Its all well and good to say, well its up to drivers to drive safely and give them extra due care and attention.

Nice sentiment, but it wont happen.

Look at the video that was just posted, and the response - the kids were being stupid. And thats coming from people who are cyclists......

My message to any 12 year old out there would be - if you are going to cycle, then stay on the footpath. If its a housing estate fine, but do you really want a 12 or 13 year old - if it was your kid - cycling along any of the main roads between Dublin City centre and its suburbs? Or along busy country roads with no bike lane?

Incidentally, what would change my mind on this is if speed limits were drastically reduced - for example roads like Drumcondra Road - I think it should be no more that 30km per hour.

Yes, kids are stupid, and lots of adults are too. It's the way people are. The responsibility to be aware of this should be on the people hurtling around in huge metal boxes.
Cyclists should be on the road, not the footpath. Drivers should be acutely aware of other road users at all times.
Cycling is safe on the whole, and is much more beneficial to kids than being ferried around in an SUV all the time. So yes, I would want my kids cycling as the norm. I also want drivers to be aware that they are the danger and responsible for keeping those kids safe. Yes, speed limits within town/city boundaries should be 30km/h

average_runner · 10-09-2018 12:14PM

benjamin d wrote: »

Yes, kids are stupid, and lots of adults are too. It's the way people are. The responsibility to be aware of this should be on the people hurtling around in huge metal boxes.
Cyclists should be on the road, not the footpath. Drivers should be acutely aware of other road users at all times.
Cycling is safe on the whole, and is much more beneficial to kids than being ferried around in an SUV all the time. So yes, I would want my kids cycling as the norm. I also want drivers to be aware that they are the danger and responsible for keeping those kids safe. Yes, speed limits within town/city boundaries should be 30km/h

Actually I blame the bus driver, council(whatever the authority is here) and the parents also. Surely the bus driver should only open the door when it's safe on both sides of the road, or is the stop in an unsafe location? Surely the council should have a safe crossing there if its an official bus stop?

Parents should be teaching the kids the rules of the road also. Kids will be kids but it seems an unsafe location in fairness.

Just blaming the truck driver is a cop out.

benjamin d · 10-09-2018 12:17PM

average_runner wrote: »

Actually I blame the bus driver, council(whatever the authority is here) and the parents also. Surely the bus driver should only open the door when it's safe on both sides of the road, or is the stop in an unsafe location? Surely the council should have a safe crossing there if its an official bus stop?

Parents should be teaching the kids the rules of the road also. Kids will be kids but it seems an unsafe location in fairness.

Just blaming the truck driver is a cop out.

I wasn't referring to the truck incident at all in my posts, but the general comment that kids shouldn't be on the road. I agree with you that the bus stop shouldn't be there or at least should be better designed in that case.

average_runner · 10-09-2018 12:20PM

benjamin d wrote: »

I wasn't referring to the truck incident at all in my posts, but the general comment that kids shouldn't be on the road. I agree with you that the bus stop shouldn't be there or at least should be better designed in that case.

I wasn't actually directing it at you, i just hit reply.

Seth Brundle · 10-09-2018 12:28PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

As a corrolary in Dublin, and of relevance to the discussion, one thing that really alarms me is the amount of young teenagers I see cycling. The roads are not fit for purpose for children to cycle on them. You cant assume a 13 year old will know the rules of the road or will be able to look out for danger, especially when they are going around in groups of 3 or 4.

Why are the roads not fit for purpose for kids/teenagers to cycle on them?
Is it their cycling abilities or is it because of other road users?

Should we ban all non-car traffic for safety reasons because car traffic is too dangerous as a result of poor compliance and enforcement of the road traffic acts?

CramCycle · 10-09-2018 12:43PM

The roads are perfectly suitable for kids to cycle on, in fact my experience has been that children and teenagers seem to have a good bit more cop than older cyclists and motorists.

average_runner · 10-09-2018 12:49PM

CramCycle wrote: »

The roads are perfectly suitable for kids to cycle on, in fact my experience has been that children and teenagers seem to have a good bit more cop than older cyclists and motorists.

Problem is that kids pick up these bad habits from older cyclists and motorists

Rechuchote · 10-09-2018 02:34PM

Problem is that drivers pick up these bad habits, surely?

average_runner · 10-09-2018 02:54PM

Rechuchote wrote: »

Problem is that drivers pick up these bad habits, surely?

Cyclists don't have bad habits ?

CramCycle · 10-09-2018 03:18PM

average_runner wrote: »

Cyclists don't have bad habits ?

Of course some do, as do some drivers, the real danger to young cyclists though surely is heavily skewed towards one group than the other.

My own experience with children has been if they are taught correctly, they are more likely to correct an adult rather than copy them.

average_runner · 10-09-2018 04:03PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Of course some do, as do some drivers, the real danger to young cyclists though surely is heavily skewed towards one group than the other.

My own experience with children has been if they are taught correctly, they are more likely to correct an adult rather than copy them.

It was just the previous post directed at motorists.

I totally agree if kids are thought correctly but the problem is, they are getting thought by alot of parents that don't respect the rules!

In Lucan last Wednesday night, driving down a road that is quiet dark, adult on his bike on the road going against traffic with no lights and in dark clothes. Right behind him was the kid doing the same thing!!!!!!!!! Its so annoying seeing things like that!. There was a footpath if they wanted to use it!

Motorists are as bad as are other users, ie walkers and runners!

Rechuchote · 10-09-2018 04:10PM

It's true, the world is full of stupid people. Very irritating.

site_owner · 10-09-2018 04:49PM

better take the lane so no one tries to squeeze past me with the cars turning right up ahead. the lane is empty behind me so they'll use all that lovely space, right??

"professional driver" - not seen on camera, the middle finger in the side mirror

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUfG8ae8XrI

BrianHenryIE · 11-09-2018 03:56AM

CramCycle wrote: »

Seen a guy coming up the N11 on the far cycle lane. He must have thought that all the lights were red, anyway, spins on through, not a care in the world. Anyone knowing the lights know that the junction he is crossing is about to go green (and does so before he is even on it). Thankfully everyone was being nice for a change but talk about bloody oblivious. He stops on the far side to use the pedestrian crossing and doesn't even notice all the traffic that was waiting for him to cross. One of the reasons I am against a yield on red rule, some people are just to f*£king stupid to be let out on their own.

Would a yield on red rule not make the stupid people safer in this case? i.e. increase the number of situations drivers are to assume pedestrians etc. (beyond the obvious "everywhere")

average_runner · 11-09-2018 08:58AM

brian.henry wrote: »

Would a yield on red rule not make the stupid people safer in this case? i.e. increase the number of situations drivers are to assume pedestrians etc. (beyond the obvious "everywhere")

Stupid people will always find another way to be stupid, you can't prevent it and shouldn't wrap the world up in cotton wool for stupid people.

site_owner · 11-09-2018 09:34AM

Well that's a ridiculous attitude.
Better infrastructure equals better outcomes in every city worldwide.

CramCycle · 11-09-2018 10:41AM

brian.henry wrote: »

Would a yield on red rule not make the stupid people safer in this case? i.e. increase the number of situations drivers are to assume pedestrians etc. (beyond the obvious "everywhere")

The problem is though that several people feel they are safe going through reds as it is (and they are often wrong), this would effectively be giving them permission to do so. Until proper infrastructure is in place to deal with such a measure, then no. Put up red light cameras and looping CCTV on every red light, then I'd think it was an OK idea.

I think we are a nation of cheeky sh1ts and your just inviting people to behave worse. Maybe when people start following the rules all the time, options like this can be put on the table but at the minute, I think it is a non runner.

I also don't see the issue with just stopping, it adds very little onto most journeys, % wise maybe alot on short journeys but time wise, not really (in my opinion).

Rechuchote · 11-09-2018 10:45AM

To my mind the main reason for red light ninjas is that women perceive cycling as too unsafe, so it's dominated by young men, who set the standard of manners. If there were more women and more older people - and, obviously, safe infrastructure - standard behaviour would be more well-brought-up generally.

Tombo2001 · 11-09-2018 11:01AM

CramCycle wrote: »

Of course some do, as do some drivers, the real danger to young cyclists though surely is heavily skewed towards one group than the other.

My own experience with children has been if they are taught correctly, they are more likely to correct an adult rather than copy them.

There's the 'get out' again....

....If drivers drive responsibly...

(they dont.....or to be more specific, as lot of them dont)

....if kids are taught 'correctly'

(they arent, and what does being 'taught correctly' even mean).

average_runner · 11-09-2018 11:35AM

site_owner wrote: »

Well that's a ridiculous attitude.
Better infrastructure equals better outcomes in every city worldwide.

Yes better infrastructure equals better outcomes for normal people, but you can't help stupid people.

For example on Dame St this morning, a guy runs across the road in front of a bus, bus stopped luckily. Infrastructure is already there for crossing the road, 2 pedestrian crossings within 200m of each other.

HardyEustace · 11-09-2018 11:36AM

Rechuchote wrote: »

To my mind the main reason for red light ninjas is that women perceive cycling as too unsafe, so it's dominated by young men, who set the standard of manners. If there were more women and more older people - and, obviously, safe infrastructure - standard behaviour would be more well-brought-up generally.

More female cyclists are killed by HGVs turning left then male cyclists. Female cyclists need to get more assertive to be safer on the roads. There is a happy medium but a bit of assertiveness is very important to deal with the awful infrastructure and car dominant mindset of some drivers that we have.

Tombo2001 · 11-09-2018 11:46AM

Rechuchote wrote: »

To my mind the main reason for red light ninjas is that women perceive cycling as too unsafe, so it's dominated by young men, who set the standard of manners. If there were more women and more older people - and, obviously, safe infrastructure - standard behaviour would be more well-brought-up generally.

I'd dispute a few things here.

Firstly, young men dont set the standard, the standards of all road users are in line with standards in society.

This notion that cyclists 'own' red light breaking, that its a cyclist thing, really annoys me as I actually believe that, like for like, cyclists probably run less red lights than motorists or pedestrians.

Firstly pedestrians, I hardly need explain but there is scarcely a single pedestrian in Ireland who will stand at a red man pedestrian light if no cars or visible from either direction. The only people who do it are parents trying to set an example to young kids. 99.9% of irish adults routinely break pedestrian lights.

Second, motorists - if you observe traffic lights you will observe that nearly always when a motorist has an opportunity to break a red light, they near always do it.

That motorist specifically - is the last motorist in the line as the lights are changing to red. Nearly always, that motorist will go through. The motorist behind them has to stop as the cross flow traffic then starts to move, and obviously none of the motorists behind him/ her are in a position to break the lights as they are back in the line of traffic.

Cyclists in contrast can all go to the front of the queue, they all have the opportunity to break the lights if its clear, unlike pedestrians - most of them dont break the lights.

Internet Friend · 11-09-2018 11:52AM

HardyEustace wrote: »

More female cyclists are killed by HGVs turning left then male cyclists. Female cyclists need to get more assertive to be safer on the roads. There is a happy medium but a bit of assertiveness is very important to deal with the awful infrastructure and car dominant mindset of some drivers that we have.

Assertiveness is important yes, but makes f all difference if you've no awareness of whats going on around you or ability to anticipate what a vehicle might do. Not saying this specifically about female cyclists, it applies to everyone.

Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

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