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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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    #3632
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its not a good way of doing PR or communications. It really gets peoples backs up. Its good he is answering questions. Its not good that he loses the cool or gets snappy. I can understand why but Jeez if the NTA wants to sell this plan to us snappy rudeness does not help.


    It helps with some people tbh, and there's a very small amount of the objectors are going to be on Twitter anyway.


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    #3633
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its not a good way of doing PR or communications. It really gets peoples backs up. Its good he is answering questions. Its not good that he loses the cool or gets snappy. I can understand why but Jeez if the NTA wants to sell this plan to us snappy rudeness does not help.

    Perhaps - but I'd argue out and out dishonesty is far worse than snapping at someone for being dishonest.


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    #3634
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    devnull wrote: »
    Perhaps - but I'd argue out and out dishonesty is far worse than snapping at someone for being dishonest.

    Not necessarily all for dishonesty to be fair - some of it seems like exasperation he is being asked a question and he shows his irritability.

    I do like that they engage on twitter but just not some of his brusque dismissiveness.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #3635
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Not necessarily all for dishonesty to be fair - some of it seems like exasperation he is being asked a question and he shows his irritability.

    I do like that they engage on twitter but just not some of his brusque dismissiveness.

    Can you point to a tweet where he was exasperated when answering genuine questions?

    One that isn't in reply to the infantile O'Leary spreading misinformation and ignoring his previous answers.


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    #3636
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,673 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Good article here; https://www.dublininquirer.com/2018/08/21/some-bus-drivers-say-busconnects-plan-is-bad-for-their-passengers

    I saw a notice up in Ballinteer for a Save our Buses meeting by some bandwagon jumpers today.


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    #3637
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭john boye


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Good article here; https://www.dublininquirer.com/2018/08/21/some-bus-drivers-say-busconnects-plan-is-bad-for-their-passengers

    I saw a notice up in Ballinteer for a Save our Buses meeting by some bandwagon jumpers today.

    I remember a similar meeting in Ballinteer to save the 48A which was dying on its arse after the Luas started and DB were planning to cut its frequency. About 400 people turned up to save their "essential" bus which was carrying fresh air all day.


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    #3638
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    john boye wrote: »
    I remember a similar meeting in Ballinteer to save the 48A which was dying on its arse after the Luas started and DB were planning to cut its frequency. About 400 people turned up to save their "essential" bus which was carrying fresh air all day.

    That's the thing though with petitions, you often get far more people signing a petition than actually use the bus service in reality a lot of the time.

    I have a relative living in England who had a mini bus serving their rural village 4 times a day Monday to Friday and three times on a Saturday. They were carrying around 200 passengers a month, yet about 600 signed the petition in a few weeks!


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    #3639
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Jarrett Walkers rude and dismissive attitude doesnt help

    Really ?

    I feel Walker has been remarkably restrained and evenhanded,in his responses to the continuous stream of consciousness which has been flung at him.

    I'm not certrain that I would have maintained such composure in the face of some of the more flamboyant accusations thrown his way.

    Meanwhile,the NTA,who commissioned the report, does'nt actually have any staff member of substance who can be challenged on the issue.....:confused:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #3640
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Really ?

    I feel Walker has been remarkably restrained and evenhanded,in his responses to the continuous stream of consciousness which has been flung at him.

    I'm not certrain that I would have maintained such composure in the face of some of the more flamboyant accusations thrown his way.

    Meanwhile,the NTA,who commissioned the report, does'nt actually have any staff member of substance who can be challenged on the issue.....:confused:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Dermotog. Dermot is making an effort


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    #3641
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,919 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Really ?

    I feel Walker has been remarkably restrained and evenhanded,in his responses to the continuous stream of consciousness which has been flung at him.

    I'm not certrain that I would have maintained such composure in the face of some of the more flamboyant accusations thrown his way.

    Meanwhile,the NTA,who commissioned the report, does'nt actually have any staff member of substance who can be challenged on the issue.....:confused:

    NTA should have had a posse of PR people out to bat from the start. Either they support Walker or they don't. PR was surely factored into the budget for this.

    Honestly I despair. That man did what was asked of him. He had a contract to do this. I often wonder if his contract included dealing with the bewildered, deluded, and parish pump idiots denigrating all this.

    There needs to be a balance to the negatives put out there. NOW.

    I understand that REAL issues on some routes will be addressed.


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    #3642
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Walker has been called a "geek planner" by the the NBRU. He has dealt with the opposition to the plan very well given most of it is nonsense, union driven hyperbole and all arguments go back to privatisation.

    Over the last few years the NTA have really got involved in major investment overhauls with this, the BusConnects infrastructure programme, DART Expansion and the Metro project. The only thing they need now is a fairly well stocked PR and media department to deal with the people who are intent on keeping this country in the last century for personal gain. If they don't address this issue soon it will be the undoing of some of the progress we have seen in the last few years and planned over the next few years.

    It is disappointing that no one took measures to tackle the inevitable backlash from the usual suspects against this plan and other plans.


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    #3643
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Good article here; https://www.dublininquirer.com/2018/08/21/some-bus-drivers-say-busconnects-plan-is-bad-for-their-passengers

    I saw a notice up in Ballinteer for a Save our Buses meeting by some bandwagon jumpers today.

    PBP organizing that, I imagine it will be very enlightening.


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    #3644
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    We have our third one coming up shortly. Momentum definitely building and numbers growing.


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    #3645
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Patww79 wrote: »
    We have our third one coming up shortly. Momentum definitely building and numbers growing.

    Yes, for another wedge issue, not engaging with the facts which are that BusConnects provides more frequent services that get people further for cheaper than they currently do. No real engagement with facts just creating fear and anger, no solutions just scaremongering.


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    #3646
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Dublin Inquirer's Twitter reminded me an excellent article from back in March of this year:
    https://www.dublininquirer.com/2018/03/07/david-it-s-time-to-build-a-community-transport-service-for-dublin

    Really agree with the throughline of this opinion piece - Metro needs BusConnects orbital and feeder routes, and BusConnects needs a community transport service to feed into it.


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    #3647
    n!ghtmancometh
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭n!ghtmancometh


    Busconnects info session in SDCC civic office in Clondalkin from 3pm-7pm today.


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    #3648
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    n!ghtmancometh wrote: »
    Busconnects info session in SDCC civic office in Clondalkin from 3pm-7pm today.
    What good is that for commuters?


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    #3649
    ITV2
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭ITV2


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Really ?

    I feel Walker has been remarkably restrained and evenhanded,in his responses to the continuous stream of consciousness which has been flung at him.

    I'm not certrain that I would have maintained such composure in the face of some of the more flamboyant accusations thrown his way.

    Meanwhile,the NTA,who commissioned the report, does'nt actually have any staff member of substance who can be challenged on the issue.....:confused:

    I attended one of the customer meets in west Dublin recently, their knowledge of Bus Connect was a bit sketchy to say the least, not good PR is my opinion.


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    #3650
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    ITV2 wrote: »
    I attended one of the customer meets in west Dublin recently, their knowledge of Bus Connect was a bit sketchy to say the least, not good PR is my opinion.

    Was that one of the NTA ones, or one of the community meetings?


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    #3651
    ITV2
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭ITV2


    N.T.A. one, i wasn't impressed at all, neither was my partner, we felt their knowledge of the proposed changes where vague. We did our own research on the website and figured it out.


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    #3652
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    ITV2 wrote: »
    I attended one of the customer meets in west Dublin recently, their knowledge of Bus Connect was a bit sketchy to say the least, not good PR is my opinion.

    I had a similar experience. The NTA person I was speaking with was very friendly but couldn’t answer many of my questions and called another colleague over to assist. They seemed to lack knowledge of many parts of the current network, so when questioned on new options or anything outside of the maps they struggled to give answers.

    They were very welcome of the feedback and asked me to email in all of my comments and suggestions.


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    #3653
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety


    I don't like the tagline "How about that?" on their posters.

    There, I said it.


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    #3654
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭AlanG


    I attended both the Fianna Fail and NTA meetings in Dublin 15 last week. As expected the FF meeting was ill informed and focused on the mess the is the lack of interchanges on the 261 route that is supposed to replace the 39. (a genuine concern)
    Unfortunately the NTA presentation was very poor - the staff there did not know the area and gave a lot of mis information on the road layouts. They were the same staff used in all the areas and had no idea of road layouts or traffic around the Blanchardstown center.

    They told me the infrastructure changes would be announced after the public consultation on the network. In D15 in particular the success or otherwise of the network is wholly dependent on the infrastructure changes. Separating them leaves an information vacuum that will be filled by worst case scenarios (given the experience of previous Dublin Bus Changes)


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    #3655
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭AlanG


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/humantransit/status/1038797050492551168
    Walker disagrees

    Has Walker explained how there will be a direct route form Tyrrelstown - I can't see the misinformation he is talking about on the map. Perhaps he would be better explaining how peak services from Tyrrelstown will compare before and after.


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    #3656
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    AlanG wrote: »
    Has Walker explained how there will be a direct route form Tyrrelstown - I can't see the misinformation he is talking about on the map. Perhaps he would be better explaining how peak services from Tyrrelstown will compare before and after.

    Why don't you ask him?


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    #3657
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭Daith


    KD345 wrote: »
    I had a similar experience. The NTA person I was speaking with was very friendly but couldn’t answer many of my questions and called another colleague over to assist. They seemed to lack knowledge of many parts of the current network, so when questioned on new options or anything outside of the maps they struggled to give answers.

    They were very welcome of the feedback and asked me to email in all of my comments and suggestions.

    Their job is to advise generally and try and get the public to make a suggestions on the website.

    Problem is they're against groups who think the plan is the finalised one so it looks the the NTA people haven't a clue.

    NTA should cop on by now or change their message. There's probably more people on this forum who could explain the changes better than the NTA people at these events.


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    #3658
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    AlanG wrote: »
    They told me the infrastructure changes would be announced after the public consultation on the network. In D15 in particular the success or otherwise of the network is wholly dependent on the infrastructure changes. Separating them leaves an information vacuum that will be filled by worst case scenarios (given the experience of previous Dublin Bus Changes)

    No point starting work on infrastructure changes until the plan is finalised, as they'd be working on things that may change.
    AlanG wrote: »
    Has Walker explained how there will be a direct route form Tyrrelstown - I can't see the misinformation he is talking about on the map. Perhaps he would be better explaining how peak services from Tyrrelstown will compare before and after.

    He's stated that all of the areas mentioned except Tyrrelstown will have a direct connection.


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    #3659
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    CatInABox wrote: »
    No point starting work on infrastructure changes until the plan is finalised, as they'd be working on things that may change.
    The problem (I think) is that there is an assumption that the plan will happen, and that there can be some grand reveal later in 2019. This is project planning from the 1980s.

    In the age of social media, fake news and shouty politicians trying to make a name for themselves, this doesn't work for politically sensitive projects where it can be killed before ever getting off the ground. I'm not an expert on this by any means, but a bit more social media savvy wouldn't be amiss - get spokespeople on social media, get a political sponsor (has anyone seen a Minister recently?), get some glossy sales brochures showing connections to a monorail where smiley happy commuters are served champagne etc. It doesn't even matter if it is stretching the truth, only the nerds on places like this will notice :)


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    #3660
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,172 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    AlanG wrote: »
    Has Walker explained how there will be a direct route form Tyrrelstown - I can't see the misinformation he is talking about on the map. Perhaps he would be better explaining how peak services from Tyrrelstown will compare before and after.

    I saw posters from Jack Chambers about a meeting that he's organising for this evening concerning the changes around that area. With the proposed new houses to be built in that general area, as well as the numerous business parks, it does look like much attention wasn't paid to there.


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    #3661
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    hmmm wrote: »
    The problem (I think) is that there is an assumption that the plan will happen, and that there can be some grand reveal later in 2019. This is project planning from the 1980s.

    In the age of social media, fake news and shouty politicians trying to make a name for themselves, this doesn't work for politically sensitive projects where it can be killed before ever getting off the ground. I'm not an expert on this by any means, but a bit more social media savvy wouldn't be amiss - get spokespeople on social media, get a political sponsor (has anyone seen a Minister recently?), get some glossy sales brochures showing connections to a monorail where smiley happy commuters are served champagne etc. It doesn't even matter if it is stretching the truth, only the nerds on places like this will notice :)

    For me,that would be a good start.

    Problem is,however,the launch of Busconnects needed to be a Hollywood Blockbuster affair,with the full resources of the NTA studio deployed.

    Instead,we have had Jarret Walker himself attempting to deal with questions which are outside his remit,particularly on the Infrastructural side.

    The "Parallell Project" regarding the Infrastructure,is,in typically Irish fashion,glossed over by the NTA,as it is more than aware of the necessity to "engage" with Local Government,traditionally the lair of the Flath Earth Society in Ireland.

    The Infrastructural elements required by Busconnects are,on reflection,vast and straddle so many areas jealously guarded by a phalanx of senior Civil Servants and bewigged Gentlemen,traditionally highly averse to change,particularly if it impinges on Private Property.

    I am increasingly of the opinion that the NTA are NOT the agency to progress Busconnects. :mad:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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