92 year old woman left sitting on a chair in A&E for over a day

gctest50 · 10-09-2018 03:03PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Because all he’s going to do is send her to hospital.

What's he going to do in some cases ? make an xray machine or whatever out of some sticky tape and a cornflakes box ?

If he draws blood and sends it off to be tested, they'll be waiting hours at the GP instead

Place needs more "Urgent Care Centres "

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 10-09-2018 03:21PM

To the posters saying they should have gone to their GP - genuinely have you every been in a situation where a very elderly parent, not in the best of health, becomes ill during the night or early in the morning? Often, waiting for the surgery to open so you can ring and maybe get an appointment later that afternoon, and then have to move your vomiting or dizzy or very very frail and weak parent from their bed to the car and then out of the car and into the doctor's waiting room is just not an option.

You have to call an ambulance because you have no idea how serious it is and, at that age, you really can't afford to take the risk or try and move the ill person by yourself.

Graces7 · 10-09-2018 03:46PM

Do you know a web site called "Rate my Hospital"?

http://www.ratemyhospital.ie/ from irishhealth

Go to General Comments.

There are some episodes like this and worse. Two longer ones especially about old folk.
And today in the news

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2018/0910/992835-nurses/

with deep concerns towards the end about the coming winter and A and E.

Graces7 · 10-09-2018 03:48PM

Pedro Fluffy Apprentice wrote: »

To the posters saying they should have gone to their GP - genuinely have you every been in a situation where a very elderly parent, not in the best of health, becomes ill during the night or early in the morning? Often, waiting for the surgery to open so you can ring and maybe get an appointment later that afternoon, and then have to move your vomiting or dizzy or very very frail and weak parent from their bed to the car and then out of the car and into the doctor's waiting room is just not an option.

You have to call an ambulance because you have no idea how serious it is and, at that age, you really can't afford to take the risk or try and move the ill person by yourself.

and the paramedics are wonderful...caring, expert.... then they hand you over to A and E and it all changes. Been there ....

Mrs OBumble · 10-09-2018 03:49PM

Pedro Fluffy Apprentice wrote: »

Yes I know very well how A&E works. I've been there many times with elderly parents. On several occasions they were extremely ill but were still left on trolleys for hours and hours.

It's not always that easy to get an ill, very elderly and not very mobile patient to a GP even if you were lucky enough to get an appointment. Sometimes your only option is to call an ambulance as it's just not possible to get them into a car and then out of the car and into the surgery.

If GPs still did house calls it would be a different matter.

If she'd arrived by ambulance she would have been on a trolley.

And they do. But you have to pay.

Berserker · 10-09-2018 03:55PM

Pedro Fluffy Apprentice wrote: »

But it turned out that she did need to be hospitalised, but it took 25 hours to get her out of a chair and into a bed.

We either need a better system where elderly and infirm people can be visited at home by GPs, or A&E Depts and hospitals that are better resourced.

Firstly, this lady didn't need to go to A&E, as you've said. A&E isn't the place for people who have not had an accident or who are not in need of emergency care.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

So the 92 year old should have cured herself? A bit of personal responsibility and she’d have been seen sooner?

What personal responsibility? What could they have done differently? Are you suggesting that they prioritise this lady over another patient?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Because all he’s going to do is send her to hospital.

He or she would not have sent her to hospital. She did not need to be hospitalised.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 10-09-2018 04:01PM

Berserker wrote: »

Firstly, this lady didn't need to go to A&E, as you've said. A&E isn't the place for people who have not had an accident or who are not in need of emergency care.

What personal responsibility? What could they have done differently? Are you suggesting that they prioritise this lady over another patient?

He or she would not have sent her to hospital. She did not need to be hospitalised.

But she has been hospitalised.

How were her family meant to get her to a GP if she was elderly, infirm and feeling very ill? Particularly if it was out of hours or all appointments were taken. Many many elderly people have no choice but to go to A&E when they become ill. It's not ideal and not what A&E was originally intended for but because of lack of options it's become the only choice.

Also with a very old person, as with a young child, you're often not sure if it's an emergency and you don't take the risk.

Genuinely, have you ever been in a situation where your very old, weak and frail parent has suddenly become very ill and you're not sure how serious it is?

Graces7 · 10-09-2018 04:12PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If she'd arrived by ambulance she would have been on a trolley.

And they do. But you have to pay.

Yes the paramedics take you in on a trolley from the ambulance and you are then either transferred on that trolley to a cubicle or corridor and the paramedics take the clean trolley back to the ambulance
OR as happened with this old lady and with me on one occasion, triage move you from the trolley to a chair.

At that age the lady is on medical card so no charge for a house call.

Odhinn · 10-09-2018 04:19PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I don't quite follow - why should a 92 year old not go see a GP?

Few GP's do house calls. The quality of locums varies wildly. And besides, odds are they'll say go to A&E anyway.

10-09-2018 04:27PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If she'd arrived by ambulance she would have been on a trolley.

And they do. But you have to pay.

Incorrect on both counts.

If she had arrived by ambulance it would have been on an ambulance trolley, she would have been transferred to either a hospital trolley or chair.

As for GPs doing house calls, that is almost unheard of in Dublin these days. There are out of hours clinics but these are still not 24/7.

I completely agree with people saying you should only visit A&E when necessary and I have seen people present for terrible reasons but if a 92 year old woman suddenly becomes unwell your company you are not going to risk using your total lack of medical knowledge to asses the situation yourself.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 10-09-2018 04:52PM

1982 wrote: »

Incorrect on both counts.

If she had arrived by ambulance it would have been on an ambulance trolley, she would have been transferred to either a hospital trolley or chair.

As for GPs doing house calls, that is almost unheard of in Dublin these days. There are out of hours clinics but these are still not 24/7.

I completely agree with people saying you should only visit A&E when necessary and I have seen people present for terrible reasons but if a 92 year old woman suddenly becomes unwell your company you are not going to risk using your total lack of medical knowledge to asses the situation yourself.

Yes totally agree. I have no doubt that A&E is abused by people going there for trivial reasons and they fully deserve to be kept waiting. It also annoys me that drunk people have to be treated there, taking resources away from those who are genuinely ill.

But frail elderly people are not abusing the service. They are there because there is no other option. The days of ringing your family GP and him/her calling around within the hour and making a judgment about whether or not they need to be in hospital are over.

Family members with no medical knowledge, faced with an elderly person who has suddenly become ill and is in no condition to travel to the GP, are not going to hang around for very long. The only way of getting immediate medical attention is to call an ambulance.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 10-09-2018 04:54PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Few GP's do house calls. The quality of locums varies wildly. And besides, odds are they'll say go to A&E anyway.

The only time we used one for my elderly father, it took 5 hours for him to arrive, he spoke very poor English and had no knowledge of my father's medical history. That's not satisfactory and we never risked it again.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 10-09-2018 04:57PM

Berserker wrote: »

Firstly, this lady didn't need to go to A&E, as you've said. A&E isn't the place for people who have not had an accident or who are not in need of emergency care.

A 92 year old wouldn’t know that.

What personal responsibility? What could they have done differently? Are you suggesting that they prioritise this lady over another patient?

I’m suggesting the HSE gets its act together

He or she would not have sent her to hospital. She did not need to be hospitalised.

You don’t know. Many GPs err on the side of caution. It’s largely a referral service these days.

Odhinn · 10-09-2018 05:02PM

Pedro Fluffy Apprentice wrote: »

The only time we used one for my elderly father, it took 5 hours for him to arrive, he spoke very poor English and had no knowledge of my father's medical history. That's not satisfactory and we never risked it again.

We got one who looked like he was there at gunpoint and was visibly terrified of the two dogs in the house (two small breeds and totally non-aggressive). He took the fathers pulse, said he should go to the a&e and fucked off. Second time we got an african guy who was actually grand, gave him a proper exam and made a prescrption for some medication (though as ever he also said he should go to a&e).

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 10-09-2018 05:08PM

I'm wondering how many of the 40 people who liked the third post on this thread have ever had the worry of a very old and infirm relative being suddenly taken ill with no way of getting them to the surgery. All this 'why didn't she just go to the GP'.

I only wish it was that simple.

redshoes15 · 10-09-2018 05:13PM

Haven’t read through this thread just yet but will share my own peach of a tale from a couple of years ago. Mother (60) very ill for a number of weeks. Multiple visits to local GP. Couldn’t eat or drink a thing without it re-emerging into the word in the form of puke. Was very worrying but she’s recovered fully now. She was sever dehydrated at one point so doc suggested she head to A&E to be given a 24 hour drip. Hospital staff amazing as always. 5 hour wait, eventually called in, popped on a plastic chair and her drip inserted into her arm. Her chair mate was an 89 year old lady with a deep open bleeding wound on her head and blood all over her. The 2 struck up a conversation and we, along with the older ladies family kept an eye on them in between grabbing cups of coffee. 26 hours they both sat in their respective plastic chairs. Directly across from them, curtains open for all to see was a couple of Dublin’s finest junkies. Boyfriend and girlfriend it seemed. Both off their faces. Both up and down every 15 minutes to beg someone in the waiting are for a smoke. I spoke to one of the nurses on duty in the wee small hours. They’d been the 2 days and basically had been refusing to be discharged. Not a thing wrong with either of them. It was in that moment I realized that this country had lost its way. I don’t blame the hospital staff. I don’t blame the HSE. I don’t blame the government. I don’t blame the junkies. It’s very hard to know who to blame. When the country I love so dear lets it’s most vulnerable people down time and time again it’s hard to know where to proportion the right amount of blame in the right direction. People marched for money in the water charges protests. They marched for equality with the marriage referendum. They marched and rallied at the atrocities the Catholic Church carried out when its leader decided to grace us with his presence. They will no doubt march, protest and scream blue murder before Don arrives to our shores. Where are the marches for our parents, grandparents and elderly? Are our heads so up our own ar$es we’ve forgotten them?

CeilingFly · 10-09-2018 05:20PM

Pedro Fluffy Apprentice wrote: »

I'm wondering how many of the 40 people who liked the third post on this thread have ever had the worry of a very old and infirm relative being suddenly taken ill with no way of getting them to the surgery. All this 'why didn't she just go to the GP'.

I only wish it was that simple.

I have and I'm the poster and I looked after my dad for three years before he passed away.

First call was ALWAYS to the GP who gave best advice as they knew his history and would also know of any local respiratory and other issues at that immediate time.

It was the daughter who brought her in and its the daughter who should have known to bring her to her GP as with such a long wait in a&e, its obviously it was not an urgent case.

Problem is once you go to a&e they tend not to want to let you go until you are seen so that they don't get sued in case someone is more ill than the triage saw.

There are issues with a&e, but if you have an actual accident or a real emergency they are great.

endacl · 10-09-2018 06:58PM

Hammer89 wrote: »

What constitutes a minor illness if you're 92

Hiccups.

Your Face · 10-09-2018 07:03PM

She should have dropped her aul wan into the nearest Garda Station.

Mint Sauce · 10-09-2018 07:05PM

CeilingFly wrote: »

Why did her daughter not take her to her local GP?

A&E - ACCIDENT and EMERGENCY - this was just someone who felt a little unwell and obviously when seen by the triage was deemed not a priority.

Her daughter needs to wake up and stop clogging up ACCIDENT and EMERGENCY departments for minor illness

And then whine to the fickle hysterical media who do a sensationalist piece leaving out a lot of facts so that some fools can get all hysterical.

Never ever ever fully believe the sh1te written in hysterical sensationalist media - ESPECIALLY the Indo.

How do you know what was wrong with her, the same minor illness for me and you, may not be minor for a 92 year old, and whilst we might be able to afford to wait a day or two for an appointment, or wait for it to clear up, in a 92 year old, it can excerbate quickly, and turn into something serious.

The curtains were probably taken up by a drunk who had to much, and put out of the way to avoid up set. Should have been fecked out, and let the 92 year old there instead.

thomas 123 · 10-09-2018 07:13PM

CeilingFly wrote: »

Why did her daughter not take her to her local GP?

A&E - ACCIDENT and EMERGENCY - this was just someone who felt a little unwell and obviously when seen by the triage was deemed not a priority.

Her daughter needs to wake up and stop clogging up ACCIDENT and EMERGENCY departments for minor illness

And then whine to the fickle hysterical media who do a sensationalist piece leaving out a lot of facts so that some fools can get all hysterical.

Never ever ever fully believe the sh1te written in hysterical sensationalist media - ESPECIALLY the Indo.

When your 92 and probably in and out of the hospital most weeks im pretty sure you would go to there too.

If there was nothing wrong with her why did she have to wait to be seen for so long? (Assuming she was triaged).

I went to my GP with a laceration and was told go to the hospital A&E I was left waiting 9 hours before I left myself. Only 2 other people in were in the waiting room with me for the last 4 hours.

For the amount of tax we pay the service we received is shocking.

We really need to look at the problem and not the victim in this case.

beauf · 10-09-2018 07:27PM

I've never managed to get a gp appointment or a house call this year for any elderly person 80+ who needs it urgently. Been in casualty about 4 times. Longest wait was 30+hrs. I don't think it's ever been under 15hrs. Everytime they were admitted for a minimum of two weeks.

The delay is always lack of doctors and lack of bed spaces.

Always compounded by a lack of communication between different parts of the health service and even within the same hospital. One hand not knowing what the other doing and generally inefficient. Also administration putting barriers on the way of efficiency.

Also made much worse by a lack of parking, lack of payment options for that parking. And eye watering expense.

beauf · 10-09-2018 07:29PM

What's shocking is that this is now the normal way the system works.

Shenshen · 10-09-2018 07:46PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Because all he’s going to do is send her to hospital.

Why? Do GPs refuse to treat the elderly?

steves2 · 10-09-2018 07:48PM

I work in a hospital in a support role. Billions are spent on the HSE every year, money is not the problem. The elephant in the room is that until they can fire people nothing will change, money goes to wages first and foremost and don't forget the pensions. Patients aren't the priority, they come last. My own dept is overstaffed and with managers who don't want to manage or discipline but want the salary. You see administrators pushing trolleys overflowing with charts down corridors, just like they were doing 50 years ago. I'm hoping to leave in the next 6 months before I become institutionalised. Are people surprised that this 90year-old-on-a-trolley stuff is still happening??

the_syco · 10-09-2018 08:02PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm overall rather shocked at the state of GPs in this country, and I do think the lack of qualification there is a massive contributing factor to the state of A&Es.

It seems mostly they're left on their own once they qualify. In other countries, they get training throughout their professional careers that the governments pay for, and thus keeps the GP's up to date. In Ireland, as they're expected to pay for any training themselves, many older GP's don't, as not only do they have to pay for the training, they also have to pay for their accommodation, and use their own time off, etc.

TallGlass wrote: »

Had to do it once and seemingly regular my advise after my day and a half chair experience at least purchase some ****ing decent chairs that are fit for the purpose to hold people for a day and a half.

The chairs are easy to clean, and if they were comfortable, some people would come in to sleep on them.

redshoes15 wrote: »

I don’t blame the junkies.

I blame the junkies and travellers who terrorise the hospital staff, and steal anything they can. You'll hear the travellers before you see them, and when you do see them, you'll see at least two Gardai there to protect the staff from assault. We should install a drunk tank next to the A&E to toss the drunks into.

Wibbs · 10-09-2018 08:48PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Why? Do GPs refuse to treat the elderly?

I'll start off by saying this is in Dublin within 20 mins distance of about three hospitals, so folks beyond the Pale will have a different experience..

Anyway until this past January I've had some experience of this over the last ten years looking after an aged and very infirm relative(dementia). Basically unless it was for a sniffle, or the GP insisted on a visit before extending prescriptions, then I ended up taking my own counsel on most things. Anything I deemed serious I dialled 999. Every single time I couldn't fault the service TBH. In every case they were seen within minutes of landing in A&E and were usually in their own cubicle being monitored within the hour(in St James st they have special cubicles for folks with dementia). The longest a transfer to a ward took was 8 hours, but they spent them being constantly monitored in the A&E cubicle, directly across from the nurses station. I personally couldn't fault the service to be honest(a couple of times on the wards themselves there were issues, but...).

TBH I found the GP(s) next to useless. Maybe I just got a bad run of them? But I found if it was something that would pass regardless of medical intervention there was obviously no point going. For other more practical medical stuff, the local district nurses were fantastic(watch a GP that qualified in the last 20 years try and put a bandage/dressing on. For fun). Early on I realised anything serious that I would spot anyway the GPs rang for an ambulance or fired it up the line to a consultant, or on two occasions say all was well, then it clearly wasn't and the A&E folks agreed with my calls(one was a major stroke in progress. Yeah.).

In the end I used them as signers of prescriptions(and I had to watch what script they printed)and blood takers for tests that others would do(again if it was normal grand, if it wasn't, they'd fire it up the line). In essence and in general I found the suburban new style GP service to be a glorified triage centre, blood takers, administers of vaccines(though staff nurses often did them).

Earlier this year I had occasion to go to one myself. Wasn't feeling right in myself. Nagged myself into going. The GP was utterly fucking useless if you pardon my French. To give a flavour: He took my BP and did the oul stethoscope check through three layers of clothing. As you don't. Didn't palpate my abdomen or do any other checks of that nature and his enquiry into my medical history was scant to say the least. Me, a 50 year old, smoker of many years, who hasn't attended a GP since the early/mid 90's. His suggestion was about 300 quids worth of bloods and tests and then hits me with his bill. 80 quid for a ten minute consult. Plus wanted to do up a script for a "tonic". An over the counter vitamin. Which he added to the bill. I didn't pay. He was not best pleased. He was less pleased when I outlined his failings in the near full waiting room. Wanker. Luckily whatever dose it was went of its own accord.

I've doctors in the extended family and attended them growing up, so I know the score to a fair degree. This isn't anti doctor. The hospital docs, from A&E to the wards, from relative newbies to veterans I've dealt with for years were with two exceptions very professional, with a large side order of genuine kindness with it too. GP's? Jesus. Very different to ones I attended in the distant past. I have heard outside Dublin they're more local and old style though?

arctictree · 10-09-2018 08:55PM

I can get a Vet out to my house any time of the day or night for 50 euro and they are generally here within the hour. What is it about Doctors that refuse to provide a service like that?

gctest50 · 10-09-2018 08:57PM

arctictree wrote: »

I can get a Vet out to my house any time of the day or night for 50 euro and they are generally here within the hour. What is it about Doctors that refuse to provide a service like that?

Your cows don't have Medical cards

A few of them would be requesting the vet for every tiny thing and ruining it for the others

Franz Von Peppercorn · 10-09-2018 08:58PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Why? Do GPs refuse to treat the elderly?

No they send people to hospital unless it’s an aspirin. I literally explained that in my post - the GPs are a referral service these days. Either to A&E or a consultant.

You do realise that people have experience of this system right?