Diesel renaissance - says VW!

elperello · 09-09-2018 11:40AM

There is a huge amount of capital tied up in the current diesel fleet.

This is money that people paid income tax on and then VAT and VRT when they bought cars.

What we need is a sensible transition period.

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 11:47AM

elperello wrote: »

There is a huge amount of capital tied up in the current diesel fleet.

This is money that people paid income tax on and then VAT and VRT when they bought cars.

What we need is a sensible transition period.

This is what we have now. EV/PHEV are heavily subsidised.
Next step is penalising fossil fuels. Carrot and stick.

elperello · 09-09-2018 12:01PM

I think carrot and stick may make sense for new purchases but will just be stick for second hand buyers.
There are not enough EV/PHEV cars to supply the second hand market.

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 12:22PM

elperello wrote: »

I think carrot and stick may make sense for new purchases but will just be stick for second hand buyers.
There are not enough EV/PHEV cars to supply the second hand market.

No one is talking about penalising existing owners though.
This should be applied to purchases made of new or used fossil fuel cars from say 1/1/2020.

elperello · 09-09-2018 12:28PM

Would applying a sanction to the purchase of a second hand petrol/diesel not penalise both existing owners and those who buy the cars?

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 12:34PM

elperello wrote: »

Would applying a sanction to the purchase of a second hand petrol/diesel not penalise both existing owners and those who buy the cars?

About the same that affected owners of high CO2 emission cars in 2007-08 did.

elperello · 09-09-2018 12:38PM

I would prefer to see a more graduated response from the Government this time.

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 12:39PM

elperello wrote: »

I would prefer to see a more graduated response from the Government this time.

I'd respectfully disagree.
We need to recover a lot of taxes to cover these fines
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-faces-annual-eu-energy-fines-of-600m-36857141.html

BorneTobyWilde · 09-09-2018 12:43PM

EV's rely on slave labour in the hearts of the Congo to get their battery material. Those mining it die young, that's better than diesel I guess ?

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 12:55PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

EV's rely on slave labour in the hearts of the Congo to get their battery material. Those mining it die young, that's better than diesel I guess ?

Well that's a flat earth level of fake news tbh.
It's a myth, an all too common one sadly, that is commonly and regularly debunked.

_Kaiser_ · 09-09-2018 01:33PM

Nickindublin wrote: »

The biggest issue is what the average buyer can afford to pay. What's the average price paid for a car in Ireland 10k? Electric cars wont be affordable to the masses for many years unless there is massive production of affordable electric cars in the very near future which I don't see.

Lets take the VW Golf for example. VW release a model that can do 300km on a single charge and I mean real world range in 2021. Price 40k. It will be 2026 by the time that car is affordable for the average buyer if they are lucky. How many will be sold though in 2021 though?

Also.. what will the battery life be like in 2026 and how much will that cost to replace?

I do between 40 and 50k km a year of mostly motorway runs of no less than an hour. I don't have a garden so no home charging. There's not one at the office either.

Now EV advocates will say "but your usage isn't the norm".. tell that to the increasing number of drivers commuting to Dublin every day from 2/3 counties away because of the cost and shortage of property in and around the city. It's like the Good Times all over again

As for the idea then of EV's replacing city-dwelling drivers.. I thought the idea was to get them OUT of their cars altogether and on to public transport (eg: this new BusConnects plan), not replace one car with another?

All EV's really are then at the moment is a means for hipsters to be smug and condescending to those of us who actually can't afford to spend 40/50k on a new car that won't suit our usage anyway.

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 01:36PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Also.. what will the battery life be like in 2026 and how much will that cost to replace?

I do between 40 and 50k km a year of mostly motorway runs of no less than an hour. I don't have a garden so no home charging. There's not one at the office either.

Now EV advocates will say "but your usage isn't the norm".. tell that to the increasing number of drivers commuting to Dublin every day from 2/3 counties away because of the cost and shortage of property in and around the city. It's like the Good Times all over again

As for the idea then of EV's replacing city-dwelling drivers.. I thought the idea was to get them OUT of their cars altogether and on to public transport (eg: this new BusConnects plan), not replace one car with another?

All EV's really are then at the moment is a means for hipsters to be smug and condescending to those of us who actually can't afford to spend 40/50k on a new car that won't suit our usage anyway.

That's my usage pattern too. I do between 50-60k per year. I commute approx 120km per day and some incidental driving at work aswell (on site chargers at my main site)
Currently on my second EV. I'm getting frustrated with the lack of home charging, but (as my recent thread on the TCO shows) it's a perfectly feasible solution once you have home charging installed.

PS: I have no garden but am getting a charger installed at my assigned parking spot.

PPS: your last sentence is quite frankly ridiculous and unfounded. I've seen your posts on this board for some time now and to be honest would have expected less of the condescension from you.

Trasna1 · 09-09-2018 01:38PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Well that's a flat earth level of fake news tbh.
It's a myth, an all too common one sadly, that is commonly and regularly debunked.

Where do you think the Cobalt come from?

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 01:40PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

Where do you think the Cobalt come from?

The corners of the earth.
Alternatively , it comes from the same place as the cobalt in your phone battery, your laptop battery etc

_Kaiser_ · 09-09-2018 01:54PM

ELM327 wrote: »

That's my usage pattern too. I do between 50-60k per year. I commute approx 120km per day and some incidental driving at work aswell (on site chargers at my main site)
Currently on my second EV. I'm getting frustrated with the lack of home charging, but (as my recent thread on the TCO shows) it's a perfectly feasible solution once you have home charging installed.

PS: I have no garden but am getting a charger installed at my assigned parking spot.

PPS: your last sentence is quite frankly ridiculous and unfounded. I've seen your posts on this board for some time now and to be honest would have expected less of the condescension from you.

I'm renting, so paying for installations isn't a runner even if I had the space. The office is a shared car park among several blocks/companies. Presumably the landlords/estate owners would have to do that, but given how wet the surface gets during any sort of sustained rain, and that the underground parking is closed off/never opened (something about the roofing from what I've heard) I'm guessing it's not something that'll be a priority.

I've read lots of EV posting about how great it is, how cheap it is (the FOR NOW part of that seems to be glossed over.. free charging and cheap tax won't last if indeed most people got onboard with the idea), and those same posters then calling for penalising diesel drivers further - it just smacks me of the "I'm alright Jack" attitudes that are very common in this country.

When I can buy an A6 for the same used-car money I bought my current one, that will do the same range and can be fully charged in under 5 minutes THEN it might make sense... but we're nowhere near that stage yet and putting further burdens on people who have to make do in the meantime (running a diesel over that sort of mileage every month isn't cheap either let alone saving for a 40/50k new car) is just unfair and unjustified.

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 02:14PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm renting, so paying for installations isn't a runner even if I had the space. The office is a shared car park among several blocks/companies. Presumably the landlords/estate owners would have to do that, but given how wet the surface gets during any sort of sustained rain, and that the underground parking is closed off/never opened (something about the roofing from what I've heard) I'm guessing it's not something that'll be a priority.

I've read lots of EV posting about how great it is, how cheap it is (the FOR NOW part of that seems to be glossed over.. free charging and cheap tax won't last if indeed most people got onboard with the idea), and those same posters then calling for penalising diesel drivers further - it just smacks me of the "I'm alright Jack" attitudes that are very common in this country.

When I can buy an A6 for the same used-car money I bought my current one, that will do the same range and can be fully charged in under 5 minutes THEN it might make sense... but we're nowhere near that stage yet and putting further burdens on people who have to make do in the meantime (running a diesel over that sort of mileage every month isn't cheap either let alone saving for a 40/50k new car) is just unfair and unjustified.

So many points to address here so bear with me.
Chargers can be located in the rain, this is a common myth about electric charging - the cars can be charged in the rain. Indeed I can't actually think off hand of any chargers I've visited except for in Hotels or that, which were indoors.

You are quite right with the high initial costs. It confused me at first, if you read my thread on the EV forum you'll see I struggled with the idea of TCO vs cashflow for a while. When your fuel is free - and if not free (eg charging at home) it costs you less than €2 to charge from empty to full. My car will do 180-220km in the real world on the motorway for that €2. And I'm a cheapskate so I will charge in work or on (temporarily free) public chargers.

If I can do 50-60k per year in an EV, with no hassle (once my home charger is installed anyway) anyone can. The only reasons not to own an EV right now are if you do more than say 150km per trip, if you are a sales rep or need to tow something (and cant afford a Tesla Model X), or if you have no home and no work chargers.

I know people doing 5k km per year around dublin city, and for the rest of the 95% of the time, the car is parked. That person should be driving an EV. And we need to target that person to ensure they change to EV - while not punishing too much the sales rep who cannot change right now.

Shefwedfan · 09-09-2018 04:46PM

Philb76 wrote: »

Well said but as long as he's alright feck everyone else an absolute moron he posts the same boring spiel and condescending s***e but it's grand cos he has a diesel as well

Please explain?

Shefwedfan · 09-09-2018 04:51PM

_Brian wrote: »

It’s a juvenile view.

Tax something out of existence when there is no real alternative, creating cost and hardship on people.

How exactly is it juvenile? or is it juvenile because you don't agree with it?

Is petrol/hybrid not an alternative? electric of course is an alternative....

Cycling, public transport(trains,buses,trams), walking, they are all alternatives as well for people in cities

I have always said the answer is not to move people from diesel to electric cars but really the government should concentrate on moving people out of car altogether

Shefwedfan · 09-09-2018 05:03PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm renting, so paying for installations isn't a runner even if I had the space. The office is a shared car park among several blocks/companies. Presumably the landlords/estate owners would have to do that, but given how wet the surface gets during any sort of sustained rain, and that the underground parking is closed off/never opened (something about the roofing from what I've heard) I'm guessing it's not something that'll be a priority.

I've read lots of EV posting about how great it is, how cheap it is (the FOR NOW part of that seems to be glossed over.. free charging and cheap tax won't last if indeed most people got onboard with the idea), and those same posters then calling for penalising diesel drivers further - it just smacks me of the "I'm alright Jack" attitudes that are very common in this country.

When I can buy an A6 for the same used-car money I bought my current one, that will do the same range and can be fully charged in under 5 minutes THEN it might make sense... but we're nowhere near that stage yet and putting further burdens on people who have to make do in the meantime (running a diesel over that sort of mileage every month isn't cheap either let alone saving for a 40/50k new car) is just unfair and unjustified.

I don't use public charging......in 18 months I have used 5 times I think now.....

Also if you read most posts on forum or from electric car users they say that electric is not for everyone....any post I reply to on motors forum I always ask about mileage, journey types etc etc....if you posted a thread I would say go diesel and if budget then look at mild hybrid diesel as that is out soon

From the rest of the Motor forum the automatic answer is diesel , I have seen people say they have a 50km commute with no long trips and some of the "senior" members of the forum trying to shove diesel options

Some people will still require diesel, that is a fact of life. But people driving in and out of Dublin each day and doing a 60km round trip to work don't need diesel. If you sit in traffic in Dublin majority of cars are diesel, this is a huge issue.

The problem is the Irish people can't actually work it out for themselves they should look at alternative. The government thought they could, providing them with free fuel via the charging network plus loads of other incentives and none of these people moved. So the other option is to tax the ass out of them and get them to move......

Unfortuneatly for the person that actually requires diesel it will mean they get hit in the pocket. So instead of blaming electric car drivers and the government I would look at the other drivers on the road and the lack of ability for them to work out MPG and cost per km.

Having diesel at 10 cent less per ltr than petrol was never going to make sense. Introducing a tax system in 2008 that means a 2ltr A6 is just over 300 quid tax and would have been close to 1k before was never going to last long term.....

elperello · 09-09-2018 05:57PM

ELM327 wrote: »

I'd respectfully disagree.
We need to recover a lot of taxes to cover these fines
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-faces-annual-eu-energy-fines-of-600m-36857141.html

Respectful disagreement, I'm all for it.

We need to pay those fines but our national fleet of cars will not disappear overnight. That's why the Government needs to find a progressive policy to move people to more sustainable forms of transport. Placing heavy tax burdens on those who can't afford to pay them will not help.

creedp · 09-09-2018 08:16PM

ELM327 wrote: »

No one is talking about penalising existing owners though.
This should be applied to purchases made of new or used fossil fuel cars from say 1/1/2020.

I'd better hurry and get a replacement for my 10 yr old diesel 7 seater so as there is no alternative EV / PHEV 7 seater out there. Although I am not a fan of SUVs I would get an Outlander PHEV if it had a 7 seat option but alas no. So it's diesel or nothing in my case.

Eric Cartman · 09-09-2018 08:34PM

Lets be honest though, if theres somebody driving <5000km a year, it doesn't matter what they drive, could be an old V12 merchant or a new electric car, they put minimal impact on the environment.

people in the 5000-15000km a year who have the means should probably look at buying an electric car if they can, prime targets for it. two car households should also probably consider it if they can.

people doing diesel miles are probably stuck there for now though, if you were doing 35,000km + a year , very little has changed for you in the past 2 decades bar having DPF's block, adblue and all the other crazy new systems invented to comply to the euro6 standard.

Our fines from the EU aren't going anywhere until we embrace cleaner power generation (nuclear would solve a lot of issues), more rail electrification and reducing the number of trucks on the road , which isn't likely to happen.

our national fleet of passenger cars barely makes a dent in any of that.

heroics · 09-09-2018 08:55PM

vectra wrote: »

2 things

1)

I wouldn't be seen dead in one of those cars.

2)

How much do they cost?

Number 1 by a thousand.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-09-2018 09:22PM

ELM327 wrote: »

A shift from Diesel to Petrol is meaningless though, they are both carcinogens and pollutants.
It doesn't matter which grade of dinosaur juice you're burning, it's still dinosaur juice.

Diesel emissions are far more harmful to human health, that's a fact.

_Brian wrote: »

We should restrain from taxing the ass of diesels and diesel fuel because alternative options aren’t there and won’t be for quite some time, they are coming, but not here as an alternative now.

Disagree. The high mileage, high pollution drivers should absolutely be punished. They still won't be paying anything like the true economic cost of the environmental and human health damage they cause.

elperello wrote: »

What we need is a sensible transition period.

There was no transition period for the owners of low emission petrols when the motor tax changes came in and the arse fell out of the secondhand market for them.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Now EV advocates will say "but your usage isn't the norm".. tell that to the increasing number of drivers commuting to Dublin every day from 2/3 counties away because of the cost and shortage of property in and around the city.

The semi-d or detached house dwellers 2-3 counties away can have home charging.

But commuting by car 2-3 counties is not sustainable, whether it's done by EV or not. There will never be enough road space in the city to cater for them. They should be going by rail.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Our fines from the EU aren't going anywhere until we embrace cleaner power generation (nuclear would solve a lot of issues), more rail electrification and reducing the number of trucks on the road , which isn't likely to happen.

Replacing Moneypoint with a nuclear plant would make perfect sense, but it'll never happen.

Rail electrification is a non-runner here outside of commuter routes, the cost is prohibitive and the usage of the inter-city rail network is insufficient to ever pay it back even given the lower running cost over diesel.

Eric Cartman · 09-09-2018 09:26PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Replacing Moneypoint with a nuclear plant would make perfect sense, but it'll never happen.

Rail electrification is a non-runner here outside of commuter routes, the cost is prohibitive and the usage of the inter-city rail network is insufficient to ever pay it back even given the lower running cost over diesel.

You're not wrong, and thats why these EU fines are a non issue as we're not within even half a hope of meeting those targets. In true Irish fashion we'll put a diesel ban in cities, everyone will buy petrol cars and we'll plant some forests and that will be it.

Trasna1 · 10-09-2018 12:33AM

elperello wrote: »

Respectful disagreement, I'm all for it.

We need to pay those fines but our national fleet of cars will not disappear overnight. That's why the Government needs to find a progressive policy to move people to more sustainable forms of transport. Placing heavy tax burdens on those who can't afford to pay them will not help.

If the entire national fleet converted to electric it wouldn't solve the carbon emission problem. Converting to the car fleet EV in the name of environmentalism, whilst ignoring aviation, Data centres, HGVs and in particular agriculture will achieve very little but require huge outlay - all of which has to be imported.

I question the wisdom of requiring a large population to mage a big expensive change for a small impact vs requiring relatively few in industry to make relatively similar adjustments which would have a huge impact. We won't do this of course since it will impact the economy.

We just can't seem to get out head around the fact that transitioning to a low carbon economy necessitates, at present, a reduction in consumption which ultimately means lower growth. EVs, in terms of environmental policy, is simply tinkering at the edges albeit very visible tinkering.

Nickindublin · 10-09-2018 08:43AM

The government cant afford to shift all cars to EV. The loss in revenue would be enormous. VRT would be less. But the taxes on fuel cant be replaced. I do think what is needed is clear taxation course for the future. Also if there is going to be ban on certain cars in our larger cities. It gives people a clear timeline so they can make decisions. I don't see this happening. They will press the panic button as usual and make a F..... up policy.

What should happen IMO is a plan to reduce diesel cars and remove them out of our cities by 2025:

This can be done by having lower taxes/scrappage on new hybrid/electric cars and raise taxes on new diesel/petrol cars from 2019/2020. I don't mean tax them out of affordability. I mean to make it more viable for people to go hybrid or electric. With new emission testing coming into force this will impact on a lot of cars co2 and increase their vrt.

New taxis and new busses from 2025 should be hybrid or electric where possible. Again incentives to taxi drivers to change especially in larger cities.

More public charging points. This can be done by charging to cover the cost. All petrol stations should be made install them. Also make it a legal obligation of management companies to provide owners in apartments with a charging point. This is law in most countries on the continent.

ELM327 · 10-09-2018 09:08AM

Nickindublin wrote: »

The government cant afford to shift all cars to EV. The loss in revenue would be enormous. VRT would be less. But the taxes on fuel cant be replaced. I do think what is needed is clear taxation course for the future. Also if there is going to be ban on certain cars in our larger cities. It gives people a clear timeline so they can make decisions. I don't see this happening. They will press the panic button as usual and make a F..... up policy.

What should happen IMO is a plan to reduce diesel cars and remove them out of our cities by 2025:

This can be done by having lower taxes/scrappage on new hybrid/electric cars and raise taxes on new diesel/petrol cars from 2019/2020. I don't mean tax them out of affordability. I mean to make it more viable for people to go hybrid or electric. With new emission testing coming into force this will impact on a lot of cars co2 and increase their vrt.

New taxis and new busses from 2025 should be hybrid or electric where possible. Again incentives to taxi drivers to change especially in larger cities.

More public charging points. This can be done by charging to cover the cost. All petrol stations should be made install them. Also make it a legal obligation of management companies to provide owners in apartments with a charging point. This is law in most countries on the continent.

These are all great points. There's already a €7k grant for taxis to change to EV.

I agree, we should set 1/1/25 as the "changeover day", gives enough time for people to buy something before and not be affected. Or to know "what they are getting themselves in for".
A congestion charge for driving a fossil car in Dublin would be a good start. Like london.

Dravokivich · 10-09-2018 09:42AM

ELM327 wrote: »

These are all great points. There's already a €7k grant for taxis to change to EV.

I agree, we should set 1/1/25 as the "changeover day", gives enough time for people to buy something before and not be affected. Or to know "what they are getting themselves in for".
A congestion charge for driving a fossil car in Dublin would be a good start. Like london.

I don't expect to be able to afford to get such a car nor in a position to run one in the next 7 years. It's great pulling dates when it's something you know you can do.

ELM327 · 10-09-2018 10:06AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't expect to be able to afford to get such a car nor in a position to run one in the next 7 years. It's great pulling dates when it's something you know you can do.

Which car can you not afford?
in 7 years my car will be coming up on 8.5 years old.
The 8.5 year old EVs on the market now are at approx 5k-6k, and that's only because of scarcity of supply.

Diesel renaissance - says VW!

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