Diesel renaissance - says VW!

KCross

Dear oh dear.... VW clearly not learning from dieselgate with its CEO saying diesel is on the way back at the Geneva Motor Show.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2018/03/06/volkswagen-leader-mueller-talks-about-diesel-renaissance-at-geneva-show/#7a8612216350


Snippet:

Diesel will see a renaissance in the not too distant future because people who drove diesels will realize that it was a very comfortable drive concept. Once the knowledge that diesels are eco-friendly firms up in people’s minds, then for me there’s no reason not to buy one.

I wouldn't be surprised, with the CEO saying that, that the ID range will be developed and put into production, but only at low volumes for the marketing.

thierry14

KCross wrote: »

Dear oh dear.... VW clearly not learning from dieselgate with its CEO saying diesel is on the way back at the Geneva Motor Show.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2018/03/06/volkswagen-leader-mueller-talks-about-diesel-renaissance-at-geneva-show/#7a8612216350


Snippet:

Diesel will see a renaissance in the not too distant future because people who drove diesels will realize that it was a very comfortable drive concept. Once the knowledge that diesels are eco-friendly firms up in people’s minds, then for me there’s no reason not to buy one.

I wouldn't be surprised, with the CEO saying that, that the ID range will be developed and put into production, but only at low volumes for the marketing.

They are only trolling with the ID range

Horrible company that VW group

People give Toyota stick for not making Ev's

At least they are upfront and honest, they have no interest in Ev's now and will maybe do Ev's when the battery tech is good enough, fair enough I say

EU have to be strong with them, but Germany are the EU

Get used to diesel lads

Shefwedfan

Ok this is Tabloid journalism and I am not surprised. Some more of the interview:

“We need diesel to get to the CO2 goals,” Herbert Diess, who heads Volkswagen’s namesake mass-market brand, said after presenting the all-electric I.D. Vizzion concept car that’s capable of driving as far as 650 kilometers (404 miles) on a single charge. “Electric vehicles in many cases won’t keep frequent drivers happy.”

If you listen to the interview the section you reference is part of a long winded answer to a question to him about showing to buyers that diesel car can hold their value and you can still buy them.

He says diesel is part of the solution but not part of the problem.

This is correct, diesel will still be required long term for some drivers.

VW are never going to say diesel is dead now. ID will not be out till 2020. The majority of their current range is based on diesel. What is he going to say? Dont buy diesel so they dont sell a new car for 2 years?

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ok this is Tabloid journalism and I am not surprised. Some more of the interview:

“We need diesel to get to the CO2 goals,” Herbert Diess, who heads Volkswagen’s namesake mass-market brand, said after presenting the all-electric I.D. Vizzion concept car that’s capable of driving as far as 650 kilometers (404 miles) on a single charge. “Electric vehicles in many cases won’t keep frequent drivers happy.”

If you listen to the interview the section you reference is part of a long winded answer to a question to him about showing to buyers that diesel car can hold their value and you can still buy them.

He says diesel is part of the solution but not part of the problem.

This is correct, diesel will still be required long term for some drivers.

VW are never going to say diesel is dead now. ID will not be out till 2020. The majority of their current range is based on diesel. What is he going to say? Dont buy diesel so they dont sell a new car for 2 years?

Im not getting your point. The CEO is saying that diesel has a future and by extension means they plan to continue to develop and sell them. Correct?

Do you think thats a good thing?

Even for long range drivers you can use petrol hybrid like Toyota. You dont need diesel. We shouldn't encourage it or accept VW's point of view, imo.

I get that they dont want to kill their current range of cars but thats very different to saying that they are going to further develop diesel engines into the future when countries and other manufacturers are looking to ban or stop producing them.

KCross

The interview is here for anyone who wants the full context...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-05/volkswagen-ceo-predicts-renaissance-for-embattled-diesel-cars


Investing heavily in next generation combustion engines, including diesel, and diesel will have a renaissance very soon.... were the words I heard!

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

Im not getting your point. The CEO is saying that diesel has a future and by extension means they plan to continue to develop and sell them. Correct?

Do you think thats a good thing?

Even for long range drivers you can use petrol hybrid like Toyota. You dont need diesel. We shouldn't encourage it or accept VW's point of view, imo.

I get that they dont want to kill their current range of cars but thats very different to saying that they are going to further develop diesel engines into the future when countries and other manufacturers are looking to ban or stop producing them.

Well my point is the article takes 1 line out of an interview and doesn't explain the context. Can you agree? it is tabloid journalism......

The question asked was about making sure drivers knew they could buy diesel and it would hold its value. So yes he is going to answer the question saying diesel has a future. If he says they have stopped development and diesel long term is dead he has just killed his current product range. He is not a bloody idiot.

He says diesel is part of the solution, which for the moment diesel is part of the solution. So if diesel is part of the solution they should make it as clean as possible? correct?

I dont like diesel, I just understand the point.

I do think Irish private drivers should only be buying 5% of diesel cars. Not the current 70-80%.

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Well my point is the article takes 1 line out of an interview and doesn't explain the context. Can you agree? it is tabloid journalism......

I can agree they didnt explain the context of that specific quote but in the context of the overall interview it is accurate in that VW are investing heavily in new diesel engines and not only see it as part of the mix but see a "renaissance" for diesel so I dont think it was tabloid journalism... it is an accurate representation of how he sees diesel.

I think VW and diesel is like Toyota and hydrogen. They've invested too much and are unwilling to shift away.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The question asked was about making sure drivers knew they could buy diesel and it would hold its value. So yes he is going to answer the question saying diesel has a future. If he says they have stopped development and diesel long term is dead he has just killed his current product range. He is not a bloody idiot.

Of course, he has to say that if his board have invested billions in diesel and has committed many more billions to next generation diesel engines. The point is, they dont appear to have learned anything from dieselgate.

Why not shift focus to something less harmful to health rather than business as usual.... which is effectively what they are saying right now. You cant believe the whole ID stuff until you see cars in volume hitting our streets and they are targeting 2022 for some of those... thats a long way out to be effectively starting zero emission production.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

He says diesel is part of the solution, which for the moment diesel is part of the solution. So if diesel is part of the solution they should make it as clean as possible? correct?

Correct. Its different when he sees it as having a renaissance though. Thats suggests its going to be a key part of their portfolio, not something that is provided to serve 5% of their target market (e.g. salesmen and commercial)

Put another way, if EV failed in the morning and diesel remained the number 1 do you think VW would be happy or sad?!!!

If they were serious about EV or had any semblance of understanding or regret of what they did with dieselgate they wouldn't be investing heavily in developing next gen diesel engines.



My main reason for posting the article/interview is that we continuously see concept EV stuff from VW but the reality in the board room is very different.

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

My main reason for posting the article/interview is that we continuously see concept EV stuff from VW but the reality in the board room is very different.

I'm not a spokemans for VW. I love the cars they make and I like driving them. The eGolf is a brilliant electric car, a lot better than other cars available.

I do think a lot of the BS posted on here about VW is pointless. They got caught but every other dealers was at the exact same crack, they just never got caught.

The investment in the ID range is exciting, the cars are really interesting and VW could really take the market by storm with them. Especially the Buzz and Crozz.

The ID range seems to be a lot further than a lot of other car manufacturers are in terms of electric cars but you don't see quotes like "They are only trolling with the ID range" about them......

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Idbatterim

the way people flocked over to diesels in the droves, and it was a massive overreaction, I am expecting the same shift the other way now!

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I'm not a spokemans for VW. I love the cars they make and I like driving them. The eGolf is a brilliant electric car, a lot better than other cars available.

I do think a lot of the BS posted on here about VW is pointless. They got caught but every other dealers was at the exact same crack, they just never got caught.

The investment in the ID range is exciting, the cars are really interesting and VW could really take the market by storm with them. Especially the Buzz and Crozz.

The ID range seems to be a lot further than a lot of other car manufacturers are in terms of electric cars but you don't see quotes like "They are only trolling with the ID range" about them......

Sure, I agree with all that.

I just hope they do actually deliver the ID range in volume. They do, for sure, look cool and VW do know how to build quality cars.

80sDiesel

I would put down a deposit for the ID Buzz tomorrow if i could. I can see them being a great success.

Shefwedfan

80sDiesel wrote: »

I would put down a deposit for the ID Buzz tomorrow if i could. I can see them being a great success.

2022 before that will see the light of day.....

mike_2009

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I do think a lot of the BS posted on here about VW is pointless. They got caught but every other dealers was at the exact same crack, they just never got caught.

......

Erm....I don't agree. Check the air quality index from the following independent testing site:
http://equaindex.com

80sDiesel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

80sDiesel wrote: »

I would put down a deposit for the ID Buzz tomorrow if i could. I can see them being a great success.

2022 before that will see the light of day.....

I am a patient man.

unkel

Idbatterim wrote: »

the way people flocked over to diesels in the droves, and it was a massive overreaction, I am expecting the same shift the other way now!

Depends on how chape de tax is!

Shefwedfan

Idbatterim wrote: »

the way people flocked over to diesels in the droves, and it was a massive overreaction, I am expecting the same shift the other way now!

Would love it but not sure it will happen. Reading the motor forum and you see the unbelieveable bullsh*t posted every day. Some people actual think their diesel runs on thin air and nothing is better than it......

Matt Simis

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I do think a lot of the BS posted on here about VW is pointless. They got caught but every other dealers was at the exact same crack, they just never got caught.

Well no not really.
Not aware of anyone else gassing animals to prove diesel is ok to breath straight out the tailpipe (and recently too, not some quaint 50s crap). They are a disgusting company, I'm embarrassed to have had so many.

This is ignoring institutional concerted coverups and the other scandals, including the sex on tap for the top boys one that's breaking. They act like they are a law onto themselves.

Shefwedfan

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well no not really.
Not aware of anyone else gassing animals to prove diesel is ok to breath straight out the tailpipe (and recently too, not some quaint 50s crap). They are a disgusting company, I'm embarrassed to have had so many.

This is ignoring institutional concerted coverups and the other scandals, including the sex on tap for the top boys one that's breaking. They act like they are a law onto themselves.

BMW and Daimler done the same monkey test, it wasn’t just VW

Shefwedfan

Matt Simis wrote: »

This is ignoring institutional concerted coverups and the other scandals, including the sex on tap for the top boys one that's breaking. They act like they are a law onto themselves.

No idea what you are talking about here......

Water John

When the emissions scandal broke, VW bombed us with TV advertising. Esp the ads linking VW to family generations, part of the family, FFS.
What use will your long range diesel car be, when you'll have to park it at the Red Cow, as you won't be allowed take it, into the city.
Diesel, in cars is on the way out. He sounds to me like, the IBM Exec who once said, there would be need for only 4 computers in the world.

Shefwedfan

Water John wrote: »

When the emissions scandal broke, VW bombed us with TV advertising. Esp the ads linking VW to family generations, part of the family, FFS.
What use will your long range diesel car be, when you'll have to park it at the Red Cow, as you won't be allowed take it, into the city.
Diesel, in cars is on the way out. He sounds to me like, the IBM Exec who once said, there would be need for only 4 computers in the world.

The IBM exec will be proven right

Longer term you will end up with 4 massive computers, Amazon, IBM, Microsoft, Google

Matt Simis

BMW and Daimler done the same monkey test, it wasn’t just VW

Source?

No idea what you are talking about here......

Lol, I don't disbelieve you have no idea what I'm talking about!


This all seems like a weak defence anyhow, "everybody else did it". The reality is VW were caught, proven guilty by law and massively fined. That caries more weight though I do think the rest were complicit in lesser crimes. Diesel car sales and values plummeting are evidence the public thinks so too.

KCross

Matt Simis wrote: »

Source?

Watch the program that broke that story (Dirty Money on Netflix). BMW and Daimler put money into the research as well with VW.... it was a joint venture but VW got most of the flak because of dieselgate.

They all claimed to know nothing about the monkeys though.... "we only gave the money"!

n97 mini

mike_2009 wrote: »

Erm....I don't agree. Check the air quality index from the following independent testing site:
http://equaindex.com

Thanks for sharing that. I read recently that Renault are leading the way in diesel pollution, with the top two or three polluters being Renault.

2013 Kaptur 1.5d is supposed to be Euro 6 but it doesn't even pass any of the older Euro standards!:eek::eek::eek:

Shefwedfan

n97 mini wrote: »

Thanks for sharing that. I read recently that Renault are leading the way in diesel pollution, with the top two or three polluters being Renault.

2013 Kaptur 1.5d is supposed to be Euro 6 but it doesn't even pass any of the older Euro standards!:eek::eek::eek:

Well then Nissan have the exact same problem as they use the same engine

PaddyFagan

Just to add a bit of colour to N97 mini's comment - I went digging today to see how my car (my wife has a PHEV - hence hanging out here) rated. I came across this paper - https://www.theicct.org/news/road-tested-sep2017-press-release - the full paper is long but worth the read. The summary of the EURO VI analysis is:



It's important to note that the NOx scale (x-axis) is the number of times the manufacturer exceeds the Euro VI standard in real driving :eek::eek:

It's also worth noting that in the detailed information there are cars from individual manufactures that are well off the average - the X3 is shown as 6 times the NOx emissions of the Euro VI standard - even though BMW are averaged at 3 times... Bad news for me given my X4 is mechanically the same car :eek:

Paddy

n97 mini

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Well then Nissan have the exact same problem as they use the same engine

Indeed. The Nissans using Renault engines are also off the charts, but especially the 1.5d.

HA Ha

https://www.bloomberg.com/hyperdrive

KCross

Looks like the diesel renaissance that VW are hoping for is slipping away...
https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/fuel-types-of-new-cars-diesel-15-5-petrol-19-8-electric-43-8-in-second-quarter-of-2018/

I hope that trend continues each quarter.

Snippet...

Diesel’s market share fell from 45.2% to 36.3% of total passenger car registrations compared to the same quarter one year ago. This drop was largely offset by an increase in demand for petrol cars (+19.8%), which now account for almost 57% of all new passenger cars sold in the EU – 7 percentage points more than in Q2 2017.

ELM327

A shift from Diesel to Petrol is meaningless though, they are both carcinogens and pollutants.
It doesn't matter which grade of dinosaur juice you're burning, it's still dinosaur juice.

Outlaw all sales of it from say 2025 and people will start buying PHEV now and EV next.

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

Looks like the diesel renaissance that VW are hoping for is slipping away...
https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/fuel-types-of-new-cars-diesel-15-5-petrol-19-8-electric-43-8-in-second-quarter-of-2018/

I hope that trend continues each quarter.

Snippet...

Diesel’s market share fell from 45.2% to 36.3% of total passenger car registrations compared to the same quarter one year ago. This drop was largely offset by an increase in demand for petrol cars (+19.8%), which now account for almost 57% of all new passenger cars sold in the EU – 7 percentage points more than in Q2 2017.

Diesel is down in Europe....I dont think it is in Ireland...


I have seen a few articles of the amount of diesels Ireland is importing still from the UK....


Uk has diesel problem, no worries, flog them to the paddies.....dont worry if high mileage, just clock it, they will never know

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Diesel is down in Europe....I dont think it is in Ireland...


I have seen a few articles of the amount of diesels Ireland is importing still from the UK....


Uk has diesel problem, no worries, flog them to the paddies.....dont worry if high mileage, just clock it, they will never know

beep beep shows diesel in Ireland is down 20% and petrol is up 20% and thats comparing Jan-Aug 2018 to the same period in 2017 and I think includes imports ("Total New registrations")

Most of the UK imports are diesel alright though.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

beep beep shows diesel in Ireland is down 20% and petrol is up 20% and thats comparing Jan-Aug 2018 to the same period in 2017 and I think includes imports ("Total New registrations")

Most of the UK imports are diesel alright though.

I suppose if petrol is the answer we will all run out and buy V8 sedans now?
It doesn't matter if someone is driving diesel or petrol or lpg or CNG or turf lol it's all the same, fossil fuel non renewable. Pollutant.


If you're not driving a BEV powered by domestic/commercial PV or other renewable energy, or hydrogen produced on site by solar powered electrolysis then you are part of the problem.


My EV is powered by predominantly renewable energy (the 80 odd percent I charge at work is all renewables) and the 20% on the ecars grid is subject to grid mix.


Sorry for the long rant but I hate this media bias of picking one fossil fuel over the other, they are both bad for the environment as each other, in slightly different ways.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

My EV is powered by predominantly renewable energy (the 80 odd percent I charge at work is all renewables) and the 20% on the ecars grid is subject to grid mix.

Yea but dont forget that battery cost between 5/10 years of fossil fuel driving to make.

ELM327

BrownFinger wrote: »

Yea but dont forget that battery cost between 5/10 years of fossil fuel driving to make.

By what measure?
Co2 is not a pollutant so I hope you're not using that?


Care to provide any source for your "5-10 years" claim?

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

By what measure?
Co2 is not a pollutant so I hope you're not using that?


Care to provide any source for your "5-10 years" claim?

I'm talking about the cost (in Co2) to manufacture the battery obviously.

Are you saying the battery production (including mining) doesnt produce any Co2?

Don't get me wrong ,
I love evs,I'd have one.
But I can't stand the arsehole attitude that seem so to come with it.

ELM327

BrownFinger wrote: »

I'm talking about the cost (in Co2) to manufacture the battery obviously.

Are you saying the battery production (including mining) doesnt produce any Co2?

Any stats, no?
CO2 is a naturally occurring material and is not a pollutant.
Pollution is generally CO, NOx, and anything else not naturally occurring. Plants breathe CO2.

Here's an interesting study on the environmental impact of BEV vs ICE
Link

BrownFinger wrote: »

Don't get me wrong ,
I love evs,I'd have one.
But I can't stand the arsehole attitude that seem so to come with it.

Lovely.

geotrig

ELM327 wrote: »

Any stats, no?
CO2 is a naturally occurring material and is not a pollutant.
Pollution is generally CO, NOx, and anything else not naturally occurring. Plants breathe CO2.




Lovely.

It may not be in some terms but from any burning of fossil fuels ,(a)is not naturally occuring and (b) is said to be hampering the ozone layer repairing .along with other factors nox co etc !

and nox also is naturally occuring*

Nitric oxide is produced during thunderstorms due to the extreme heat of lightning

ELM327

geotrig wrote: »

It may not be in some terms but from any burning of fossil fuels ,a is not naturally occuring and b. is said to be hampering the ozone layer repairing .along with other factor probably !

and nox also is naturally occuring*

Nitric oxide is produced during thunderstorms due to the extreme heat of lightning

Yes but NOx produced by burning carbon based fuels are rumoured to be carcinogens, and definitely cause respiratory disease. The Ozone layer depletion was caused by CFCs, and has ceased to be an issue since the late 90's . The AGU study showed it was repairing itself and should be repaired to pre 1980's levels by the middle of this century.


If (theoretically) the only benefit of EV was to move pollution from city roads to beside power stations then for the respiratory reasons alone it is worth it.

geotrig

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes but NOx produced by burning carbon based fuels are rumoured to be carcinogens, and definitely cause respiratory disease. The Ozone layer depletion was caused by CFCs, and has ceased to be an issue since the late 90's . The AGU study showed it was repairing itself and should be repaired to pre 1980's levels by the middle of this century.


If (theoretically) the only benefit of EV was to move pollution from city roads to beside power stations then for the respiratory reasons alone it is worth it.

Yeah fully agree ,nox emissions form cars is unacceptable really and I hope we move away from it and I have a diesel I'm not sure the ozone is a non issue but that's for another thread . Like brownfinger I'd have an ev in the morning but at the moment they don't suit me and Im not sure moving everyone to Ev Fixes our problems, like going petrol to diesel it just moves the goal posts.

I'd like to see if the hydrogen model toyota are invested in is any better , from the brief look at i saw years ago it seemed so but who knows the way they all fiddle with these figures :rolleyes:

Polution is not only at the power supply station. I read that it would be more than eight years of driving E-Class before the car would catch up with the polution caused by a Tesla. Which means the Tesla needs to last at least 10 years to start to be clean.

Alanstrainor

Deleted User wrote: »

Polution is not only at the power supply station. I read that it would be more than eight years of driving E-Class before the car would catch up with the polution caused by a Tesla. Which means the Tesla needs to last at least 10 years to start to be clean.

Sources for that please? I find it hard to believe that the E class is carbon neutral in it's construction either.

ELM327

geotrig wrote: »

Yeah fully agree ,nox emissions form cars is unacceptable really and I hope we move away from it and I have a diesel I'm not sure the ozone is a non issue but that's for another thread . Like brownfinger I'd have an ev in the morning but at the moment they don't suit me and Im not sure moving everyone to Ev Fixes our problems, like going petrol to diesel it just moves the goal posts.

I'd like to see if the hydrogen model toyota are invested in is any better , from the brief look at i saw years ago it seemed so but who knows the way they all fiddle with these figures :rolleyes:

Hydrogen is a false dawn, taking a "well to wheel" analysis you have to convert water to hydrogen, then compress the hydrogen an/or freeze it to many hundreds of degrees below 0, then convert hydrogen to water and energy to use in the fuel cell.
It's a net energy cost and energy efficiency of below 30%. It seems great with no tailpipe emissions but do even an hour of research and you'll see it's not the answer.


I'm no EVangelist, I have an EV and I'm going to sell it as it's not saving me enough to justify the inconvenience

Deleted User wrote: »

Polution is not only at the power supply station. I read that it would be more than eight years of driving E-Class before the car would catch up with the polution caused by a Tesla. Which means the Tesla needs to last at least 10 years to start to be clean.

I'd like to see some facts around that as it sounds like some propaganda to me.

ELM327

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Sources for that please? I find it hard to believe that the E class is carbon neutral in it's construction either.

+1
Sounds like something written by the head of cheat devices in VW to be honest :p:pac:

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Polution is not only at the power supply station. I read that it would be more than eight years of driving E-Class before the car would catch up with the polution caused by a Tesla. Which means the Tesla needs to last at least 10 years to start to be clean.

Please, please provide a source for this :-)

+1
Sounds like something written by the head of cheat devices in VW to be honest

Even the head of VW couldn't keep a straight face coming out with that :-)

Alanstrainor

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Sources for that please? I find it hard to believe that the E class is carbon neutral in it's construction either.

I'll try to find it

Alanstrainor

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Sources for that please? I find it hard to believe that the E class is carbon neutral in it's construction either.

I don't remember the article saying E Class is carbon neutral


Anyhow, here it is:

https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-the-myth-of-a-clean-electric-car/a-39856708

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I suppose if petrol is the answer we will all run out and buy V8 sedans now?
It doesn't matter if someone is driving diesel or petrol or lpg or CNG or turf lol it's all the same, fossil fuel non renewable. Pollutant.


If you're not driving a BEV powered by domestic/commercial PV or other renewable energy, or hydrogen produced on site by solar powered electrolysis then you are part of the problem.


My EV is powered by predominantly renewable energy (the 80 odd percent I charge at work is all renewables) and the 20% on the ecars grid is subject to grid mix.


Sorry for the long rant but I hate this media bias of picking one fossil fuel over the other, they are both bad for the environment as each other, in slightly different ways.

The argument is more complicated than fossil is bad and EV's are good therefore everyone buy EV.

The reality is it will be a slow transition not an overnight switchover.

If people move from diesel to petrol, to hybrid, to plugin-hybrid, to BEV then thats a good thing.... its moving in the right direction.

The reality is everyone cant buy an EV because the supply and choice isn't there and wont be for many years to come.

Fast forward to 2022 we will have the following long range BEV's....

Tesla S, X, 3
Hyundai Kona
Kia Niro
Leaf 60kWh
Ioniq (maybe)
VW ID range
Jag iPace
BMW (nothing firm announced but presumably something)
Merc EQ range


Apart from Leaf and Ioniq most of those are €80k+ with the Hyundai and Kia at ~€40k. That list wont bring us to mass EV adoption because its too short a list and too expensive for the majority.

In the meantime we have to live with the reality that fossil fuel is required so I'm happy to see diesel down and petrol up... we just need to get more of them to hybrid and PHEV (because you can actually buy them) as they are stepping stones that will make significant improvements to local emissions until its cheap to deliver long range BEV's for <€30k

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm no EVangelist, I have an EV and I'm going to sell it as it's not saving me enough to justify the inconvenience

What are you going to buy then? A 520d?
I guess you are going back to being "part of the problem" as you put it?

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't remember the article saying E Class is carbon neutral


Anyhow, here it is:

https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-the-myth-of-a-clean-electric-car/a-39856708

Jesus I have seen better journalism in the Sun newspaper....


Not a shred of truth to anything in that article.


Even took a pop at Solar PV and wind power????