Formula 1 2018: General Discussion Thread

H3llR4iser · 06-09-2018 12:03PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Hope not, really think Kimi has done enough to keep that seat.
What do they gain by bringing leclerc up? Someone to challenge vettel ala Ricciardo? And Vettel moves on? Maybe this will prompt the vettel to mercedes/lewis to ferrari swap in a year or 2.

The one problem is that despite what most here stubbornly keep maintaining, Kimi is not really playing the designed #2 at Ferrari - plenty of evidence, including the famous "you have to say it" radio message. Whenever the team took strategic decisions that ended up favouring Vettel, they had to do almost with subterfuge - they know Raikkonen wouldn't just comply. In Monza, he fought for position at the first two chicanes; He might reluctantly comply to keep positions or to a swap, not without a lot of radio back and forth (e.g. Budapest 2017), but a request to pull a Bottas risking to completely ruin his race to act as a roadblock, would most likely be either ignored or met with a "stick it where the sun doesn't shine" answer.

I would really like for Kimi to be still in a Ferrari next year, I believe he deserves at least one more race victory before he retires and think that despite all, he'd make for the ideal choice for another year.

Yet, if you're in Ferrari's manageent shoes, Leclerc might make more sense - long term prospect, Ferrari Driver Academy alumni (would be the first to make it to the team), fast as hell but imbued with the team's culture - he'd most likely be easier to manage for the first season as he doesn't seem to have a Verstappen-like mentality.

ELM327 · 06-09-2018 12:12PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well I wonder if jules Bianchi has had an affect on Ferrari promotion policy.

Ferrari has always had a young driver program but they almost never employ drivers from it. They tend to go with headline stars at the peak of their career like Kimi, Rubins, Vettel, Alonso. They rarely take a punt on a young driver but they had earmarked Jules even though they never had the chance to promote him.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they have become impatient to use someone from the program and try to find a max Verstappen. The last time they employed a relatively young driver was probably Schumacher who was double world champion.

Kimi isn’t getting any faster so why not give the seat to Leclerc?

Schumacher was already a 2 time world champion and moved as an established leading driver, already what 4 years in F1 at the time and 2 WDC.

I take your point actually because I cannot remember a ferrari driver as a "youth prodigy" like a verstappen, a young vettel/alonso/hamilton etc at the start of their career. And I've been watching F1 for 25 years (god that was a strange sentence to write, quarter of a century at teh end of this season for me watching F1).

Ferrari have normally been an aspirational drive, ie do well and you'll get to drive one. Even to be a number 2 like Irvine/Rubens was an achievement.

I don't see what leclerc has done in F1 to warrant ousting Kimi and potentially upsetting Vettel.

vectra · 06-09-2018 12:12PM

Not that I am a fan of Kimi's or anything.
But what if Leclerc fails to perform as expected next year?
Think about it.
Vettel will do to him what Alonso did the Vandourne.
I think another year for Kimi would allow Leclerc a second season with a decent enough midfield team to see how he gets on.

ELM327 · 06-09-2018 12:14PM

vectra wrote: »

Not that I am a fan of Kimi's or anything.
But what if Leclerc fails to perform as expected next year?
Think about it.
Vettel will do to him what Alonso did the Vandourne.
I think another year for Kimi would allow Leclerc a second season with a decent enough midfield team to see how he gets on.

+1
If - as expected now - Leclerc goes to ferrari next year one of two things will happen:

He'll bomb out and have a career as a mediocre driver in mediocre teams, Ala perez
He'll do well, ignore team orders and upset vettel and vettel will leave - ala Ricciardo.

There's no benefit for ferrari to oust Kimi. It's a mad decision IMO. Leclerc if he's truly worthy of the drive will be better served with another year in a mid table team away from the scrutiny of the big red car.

muckwarrior · 06-09-2018 12:18PM

vectra wrote: »

Not that I am a fan of Kimi's or anything.

:D:D

That's akin to Hitler saying "Not that I dislike jews or anything..."

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 06-09-2018 12:19PM

I hope one of 2 things happen next year:

Leclerc blows Vettel away in the same way Ricciardo did to him

Or

Leclerc is an utter flop when it comes to the big time.

El_Duderino 09 · 06-09-2018 12:20PM

ELM327 wrote: »

If - as expected now - Leclerc goes to ferrari next year one of two things will happen:
He'll bomb out and have a career as a mediocre driver in mediocre teams, Ala perez

He'll do well, ignore team orders and upset vettel and vettel will leave - ala Ricciardo.

There's no benefit for ferrari to oust Kimi. It's a mad decision IMO. Leclerc if he's truly worthy of the drive will be better served with another year in a mid table team away from the scrutiny of the big red car.

There’s a third option. He could be very good AND obey team orders. He’s young and could have a long and successful (not to mention lucrative) career at Ferrari if he plays his cards right.

They can easily offer a future #1 role in exchange for doing his apprenticeship as Vettel’s no2. Its such a huge step up for Leclerc that I’d say it’s on the expressed condition that he’s a no2 from the outset.

vectra · 06-09-2018 12:22PM

muckwarrior wrote: »

:D:D

That's akin to Hitler saying "Not that I dislike jews or anything..."

I probably could have worded that better.

as in
" I know I am a big fan of Kimi's, But........."

AMKC · 06-09-2018 12:43PM

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

I hope one of 2 things happen next year:

Leclerc blows Vettel away in the same way Ricciardo did to him

Or

Leclerc is an utter flop when it comes to the big time.

Thats harsh.

I do agree that he needs a second year at Sauber before moving to Ferrari and Kimi deserves another year. I do agree with what you say do. If Leclerc does end up at Ferrari and Challenge Vettel than that can only be good for the team. I think Leclerc is as talented or even more talented than Verstappen and is a more grounded driver too.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There’s a third option. He could be very good AND obey team orders. He’s young and could have a long and successful (not to mention lucrative) career at Ferrari if he plays his cards right.

They can easily offer a future #1 role in exchange for doing his apprenticeship as Vettel’s no2. Its such a huge step up for Leclerc that I’d say it’s on the expressed condition that he’s a no2 from the outset.

The only thing about that is it could be 5 years or 10 years depending on how long more Vettel wants race for so Leclerc could be waiting a long time and there will continue to be ,any more young drivers wanted to get into F1 and make it big.

eviltimeban · 06-09-2018 01:10PM

Being a Ferrari number 2 doesn't necessarily mean promotion to number 1 - didn't happen for Irvine (besides when MS broke his leg), didn't happen for Massa, and probably won't happen for Leclerc either. When Vettel does move on, Ferrari will sign another "big name", whoever that is. Probably Hamilton, or Ricciardo.

ELM327 · 06-09-2018 01:35PM

eviltimeban wrote: »

Being a Ferrari number 2 doesn't necessarily mean promotion to number 1 - didn't happen for Irvine (besides when MS broke his leg), didn't happen for Massa, and probably won't happen for Leclerc either. When Vettel does move on, Ferrari will sign another "big name", whoever that is. Probably Hamilton, or Ricciardo.

I cant see it being Ricciardo unless he wins a WDC.
Most likely Hamilton. That would be strange, I've never watched an F1 race and not supported ferrari.

skipper_G · 06-09-2018 01:44PM

Kimi has had an impressive career, won 20 races and a world title but his time is up, I'm excited to see the next generation start moving to the front. Leclerc is a special talent, better than Verstappen in my opinion with the added bonus of not being an arrogant prat

vectra · 06-09-2018 01:47PM

eviltimeban wrote: »

Being a Ferrari number 2 doesn't necessarily mean promotion to number 1 - didn't happen for Irvine (besides when MS broke his leg), didn't happen for Massa, and probably won't happen for Leclerc either. When Vettel does move on, Ferrari will sign another "big name", whoever that is. Probably Hamilton, or Ricciardo.

ELM327 wrote: »

I cant see it being Ricciardo unless he wins a WDC.
Most likely Hamilton. That would be strange, I've never watched an F1 race and not supported ferrari.

I would almost put money on Max to replace Vettel.

pjohnson · 06-09-2018 01:48PM

What would Leclercs brief even be? Hes not gunna be challenging Vettel.

muckwarrior · 06-09-2018 01:49PM

eviltimeban wrote: »

Being a Ferrari number 2 doesn't necessarily mean promotion to number 1 - didn't happen for Irvine (besides when MS broke his leg), didn't happen for Massa,

Yeah, but they weren't number 1 material so didn't deserve the status. It all depends on how Leclerc does against Vettel. If he can match or beat him then he deserves the number 1 status after Vettel inevitably goes running with his tail between his legs again (in this hypothetical scenario).

meeeeh · 06-09-2018 02:04PM

I think Ferrari do eventually stand behind whoever has the best chance for a title. In 2008 when Kimi spent a year celebrating that was Massa. I think Kimi in his prime was a very good driver but not in the years he was partnered with Vettel. But before that Ferrai didn't really employ no.2 drivers who were good enough to be a champion. Irvine came close but Malaysia that year showed how much of a difference there was between him and Schumacher. I think Leclerc is an exciting prospect and I think there is a possibility he will push Vettel who I think is a good driver. I never believed for example that Barichello or Irvine were anywhere near as good as MS or that Massa was as good as Alonso. Leclerc impressed me enough to think there is a possibility he might be great but it's too soon judge.

mickdw · 06-09-2018 02:29PM

In my opinion, you can sign a number 2 contract but in the case of le clerc, I believe his class would come through regardless. out qualify the No 1 a few times, take your race chances when the number one is out of play etc and when the second contract comes around, different terms might be forthcoming. There is no way Le Clerc should sit as No 2 to Vettel for more than a year or 2. That would be career destroying stuff.

chicorytip · 06-09-2018 06:02PM

skipper_G wrote:

Kimi has had an impressive career, won 20 races and a world title but his time is up, I'm excited to see the next generation start moving to the front. Leclerc is a special talent, better than Verstappen in my opinion with the added bonus of not being an arrogant prat

Verstappen achieved better results with Toro Rosso than Leclerc has, to date, with Sauber and has fully vindicated Red Bull's decision to promote him to the senior team. Based on performances alone Grosjean would be more deserving of the Ferrari drive. Leclerc had the backing of the late Sergio Marchionne - not a Kimi fan - and is managed by the son of Jean Todt so, presumably, if he has already been offered a contract the agreement is unlikely to be broken.

skipper_G · 06-09-2018 06:26PM

chicorytip wrote: »

Verstappen achieved better results with Toro Rosso than Leclerc has, to date, with Sauber and has fully vindicated Red Bull's decision to promote him to the senior team. Based on performances alone Grosjean would be more deserving of the Ferrari drive. Leclerc had the backing of the late Sergio Marchionne - not a Kimi fan - and is managed by the son of Jean Todt so, presumably, if he has already been offered a contract the agreement is unlikely to be broken.

Grosjean's not fit to look at a Ferrari, never mind drive one

And I'm not talking just about results, I'm talking about the whole package. Having watched plenty of Leclerc in his junior career I rate him higher than Max

ELM327 · 07-09-2018 08:43AM

chicorytip wrote: »

Verstappen achieved better results with Toro Rosso than Leclerc has, to date, with Sauber and has fully vindicated Red Bull's decision to promote him to the senior team. Based on performances alone Grosjean would be more deserving of the Ferrari drive. Leclerc had the backing of the late Sergio Marchionne - not a Kimi fan - and is managed by the son of Jean Todt so, presumably, if he has already been offered a contract the agreement is unlikely to be broken.

Grosjean should consider himself lucky to be on the grid still.

pjohnson · 07-09-2018 09:17AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Grosjean should consider himself lucky to be on the grid still.

He's the definition of inconsistent. Until the last few races I'd say he was heading out of F1, but then he pulls out point finishes in his last 4 or 5 races that may just manage to keep him employed. Haas is his top level.

flazio · 07-09-2018 10:21AM

I see there's still no word on Lance moving out of Williams.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 07-09-2018 10:40AM

flazio wrote: »

I see there's still no word on Lance moving out of Williams.

Some sort of contractual issue there I think, naturally contracts can be bought out, but is it legally binding?

El_Duderino 09 · 07-09-2018 10:51AM

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

flazio wrote: »

I see there's still no word on Lance moving out of Williams.

Some sort of contractual issue there I think, naturally contracts can be bought out, but is it legally binding?

Joe Saward spoke about this last week before Italy.

He said it’s costing approximately $20m a year for lances swat at Williams. He bought FI for about $40m. So he will need to also pay Williams to get lance out of the contract. Joe reckons williams will get enough from the settlement to run the team next year.

I’d say everyone is taking their time because it’s such a large amount of money at stake. The lance deal might not even go through this year

pjohnson · 07-09-2018 11:17AM

Lance moving now would force Ocon off the grid until next year? Unless Vandoorne is removed from his McLaren immediately?

ELM327 · 07-09-2018 11:17AM

pjohnson wrote: »

Lance moving now would force Ocon off the grid until next year? Unless Vandoorne is removed from his McLaren immediately?

I'm sure mclaren would boot vandoorne in a heartbeat if Ocon was available.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 07-09-2018 11:19AM

Ocon can't fit into the McLaren I imagine is the problem for an immediate move, plus it would only be for the remainder of this season.

pjohnson · 07-09-2018 11:20AM

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm sure mclaren would boot vandoorne in a heartbeat if Ocon was available.

It'd still only be short term deal now tho with Norris signed for next year, but it'd still keep him on the grid for now at least. Then probably Haas next year?

Very unfortunate situation for Ocon altogether

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 07-09-2018 11:22AM

Mercedes will have to release him to keep him on the grid it seems, this was a factor for McLaren Zak Brown said.

vectra · 07-09-2018 12:42PM

I read a very interesting Comment over on another forum about Kimi and Leclerc.

LeClerc

Haas had him last year as a test driver, they knew what he can do. They had the option of promoting him this year, they opted for Magnussen and Grosjean. Charles was sent to Sauber. Reports have it that Ferrari's new management tried to send him for next year to Haas as well, Gene said no again. They had him in their backyard and know what he can do, why would they say no (twice)?

Kimi Scenario.

The reason this switch feels akward and questionable is because of Kimi's form and driving this season. Had this discussion happened last season (beaten by Bottas by 100 points) or two years ago (worst of the six best) then it would have been a no-brainer for basicly everyone but now it feels strange. I mean, out of the 11 races he has finished this season he's been on the podium 9 times, and it's not just podiums, as in scrapping along for 3rd place, because there are three 2nd places as well in these results. The three DNF:s have been out of his control. He might have been on podium in Bahrain had he not been released erroneously. But let's say he would have been 4th, that's 12 points. Barcelona? Let's say 5th behind Seb, that's 10 points. Spa, without the fuel error during quali? Most likely 2nd behind Seb or at least 3rd behind Lewis. That's 15 points. Basicly in a worst-case scenario he has dropped 37 points and adding it to his points tally would bring it to 201 points now, 25 behind Seb. He hasn't made a costly driving error in the races this year.

How would the discussion go now if that was the case? Still out the door? I haven't placed him above Lewis or Seb in any of these three races so the gap to them would still be same. Lewis 256, Seb 226, Kimi 201. He would just have removed those points from drivers behind in the standings. The fact is, he wouldn't have been out of the WDC race and having in mind he went out of PU sequence because of Barcelona he might have scored higher having the same power as Seb during the summer, maybe even a win. This is what it boils down to.

Formula 1 2018: General Discussion Thread

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