NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

m99T · 04-09-2018 07:51PM

Ultimanemo wrote: »

If I ask eir to install a landline for me will that cause them headache, If it will I will

The have to do it too. It's in the USO.

listermint · 04-09-2018 08:06PM

So if they are putting out articles like this

https://m.independent.ie/business/technology/news/eir-signals-end-of-copper-landline-in-ireland-with-1bn-fibre-line-plan-37281247.html

Does that mean they would replace a copper land line with fibre ? Or is it another slight of hand using urban slightly urban as means to not connect rural.

Article seems wishy washy

KOR101 · 04-09-2018 08:13PM

So, still no movement and supposedly just two weeks from signing.

She also said that Eir will not voluntarily reduce the price it charges Enet to access infrastructure needed to support the roll-out of the National Broadband Plan.

"No, our prices are regulated," she said.

"The only prices we’re discussing are those currently set by the regulator. It’s up to Comreg whether they want to look at the price. Those prices are set on the cost of maintaining ducts and poles in rural Ireland, which is expensive."

tsue921i8wljb3 · 04-09-2018 08:17PM

KOR101 wrote: »

So, still no movement and supposedly just two weeks from signing.

She also said that Eir will not voluntarily reduce the price it charges Enet to access infrastructure needed to support the roll-out of the National Broadband Plan.

"No, our prices are regulated," she said.

"The only prices we’re discussing are those currently set by the regulator. It’s up to Comreg whether they want to look at the price. Those prices are set on the cost of maintaining ducts and poles in rural Ireland, which is expensive."

Unless the Department have caved and agreed to pay the current regulated price I don't see how this is going to work. If they try legislation to reduce access costs I expect eir to vigorously contest it.

Ultimanemo · 04-09-2018 08:32PM

KOR101 wrote: »

So, still no movement and supposedly just two weeks from signing.[/I]

It happens every now and then, it gets quiet for few weeks then a company pulls out

KOR101 · 04-09-2018 09:14PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Unless the Department have caved and agreed to pay the current regulated price I don't see how this is going to work. If they try legislation to reduce access costs I expect eir to vigorously contest it.

It's hard to believe there are not negotiations going on between Eir and the Government. But, with comments like that from Lennon and the complete silence from Eir, it is beginning to seem like the Government is going to try and do an end run around them. With Neil's share price down 45% this year, you would think he might be open to a payoff rather than a fight.

I know we're clutching at straws at this point. The only thing the NBP has going for it is the apparent determination of the Govt.

fritzelly · 04-09-2018 09:37PM

m99T wrote: »

The have to do it too. It's in the USO.

Only if it comes in at €7000 euro or less and is the only option i.e. if you are getting fibre then the USO is fulfilled

fritzelly · 04-09-2018 09:40PM

listermint wrote: »

So if they are putting out articles like this

https://m.independent.ie/business/technology/news/eir-signals-end-of-copper-landline-in-ireland-with-1bn-fibre-line-plan-37281247.html

Does that mean they would replace a copper land line with fibre ? Or is it another slight of hand using urban slightly urban as means to not connect rural.

Article seems wishy washy

EU law stops them taking out existing copper but dont expect to get a copper line where fibre exists.

listermint · 04-09-2018 09:42PM

fritzelly wrote: »

EU law stops them taking out existing copper but dont expect to get a copper line where fibre exists.

No I'd expect to get a fibre line where copper exits according to the article.

fritzelly · 04-09-2018 09:47PM

listermint wrote: »

No I'd expect to get a fibre line where copper exits according to the article.

You can read that multiple ways
Replacing doesn't necessarily mean removing just changing to fibre for any future connections (so it should be in a way)
Until EU law changes they cannot remove any copper connections
Methinks what that might mean is to hell with installing copper you will have to wait til fibre is available and as part of the USO - maybe wrong, I'm sure Navi or Marlow will give their thoughts.

Johnboy1951 · 04-09-2018 10:34PM

fritzelly wrote: »

EU law stops them taking out existing copper but dont expect to get a copper line where fibre exists.

What law are you referring to please?

tsue921i8wljb3 · 04-09-2018 10:39PM

fritzelly wrote: »

You can read that multiple ways
Replacing doesn't necessarily mean removing just changing to fibre for any future connections (so it should be in a way)
Until EU law changes they cannot remove any copper connections
Methinks what that might mean is to hell with installing copper you will have to wait til fibre is available and as part of the USO - maybe wrong, I'm sure Navi or Marlow will give their thoughts.

The fact that there is no POTS over Fibre (so to speak) product may be a stumbling block. As it currently stands with Openeir I don't believe you can have a phone line over fibre without a broadband connection. I also suspect this is why they are not removing the copper cable.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 04-09-2018 10:45PM

listermint wrote: »

So if they are putting out articles like this

https://m.independent.ie/business/technology/news/eir-signals-end-of-copper-landline-in-ireland-with-1bn-fibre-line-plan-37281247.html

Does that mean they would replace a copper land line with fibre ? Or is it another slight of hand using urban slightly urban as means to not connect rural.

Article seems wishy washy

I'd expect it to be similar to their rural project. They will enable high density urban areas for FTTH but it will be up to the end user to order the product and likely pay a connection fee. I don't expect a mass replacement of copper to take place with no end user intervention.

fritzelly · 04-09-2018 10:51PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

The fact that there is no POTS over Fibre (so to speak) product may be a stumbling block. As it currently stands with Openeir I don't believe you can have a phone line over fibre without a broadband connection. I also suspect this is why they are not removing the copper cable.

No I don't believe they do have a phone only service over fibre (not that I recall reading anywhere anyway) but who in this day and age wants only a phone connection - cheaper to buy a mobile package for €20 a month, don't have mobile coverage then very likely you won't get a copper connection either.
The copper removal is still an EU thing they cant do yet. Don't think they could negotiate a country specific law for that or could they?
The days of the old phones powered by the phone line are long gone are they not so POTS is kinda redundant in that sense.

Johnboy1951 · 04-09-2018 10:57PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

The fact that there is no POTS over Fibre (so to speak) product may be a stumbling block. As it currently stands with Openeir I don't believe you can have a phone line over fibre without a broadband connection. I also suspect this is why they are not removing the copper cable.

I don't know that they could not provide such.
They have complete control over the data rates, while treating VOIP separately.

fritzelly wrote: »

No I don't believe they do have a phone only service over fibre (not that I recall reading anywhere anyway) but who in this day and age wants only a phone connection - cheaper to buy a mobile package for €20 a month, don't have mobile coverage then very likely you won't get a copper connection either.
The copper removal is still an EU thing they cant do yet. Don't think they could negotiate a country specific law for that or could they?
The days of the old phones powered by the phone line are long gone are they not so POTS is kinda redundant in that sense.

What EU law are you referring to?
Does it actually mention copper or POTS or similar?

fritzelly · 04-09-2018 11:10PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What EU law are you referring to?
Does it actually mention copper or POTS or similar?

Thought I had it bookmarked and trying to Google it is near impossible, maybe one of the other guys has the handy link
Cannot remember the wording but it is specifically copper as that is powered by the telcom (even tho everyone has a plugged in phone these days).

Johnboy1951 · 04-09-2018 11:13PM

fritzelly wrote: »

Thought I had it bookmarked and trying to Google it is near impossible, maybe one of the other guys has the handy link
Cannot remember the wording but it is specifically copper as that is powered by the telcom (even tho everyone has a plugged in phone these days).

Yeah I found nothing prior to asking

Everyone has a plugged in phone? ..... not sure what you mean.

fritzelly · 04-09-2018 11:17PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yeah I found nothing prior to asking

Everyone has a plugged in phone? ..... not sure what you mean.

Plug powered
Not this type anymore!

DownloadImage.Ashx?ImageId=321848&ImageSize=Medium&Key=a1df379f70df32054a4e4813d0fd8310efbba5ef

m99T · 04-09-2018 11:18PM

fritzelly wrote: »

Plug powered
Not this type anymore!

i am confus

Johnboy1951 · 04-09-2018 11:19PM

fritzelly wrote: »

Plug powered
Not this type anymore!

[IMG]h ttps://lowdown.carphonewarehouse.com/Common/Helper/DownloadImage.Ashx?ImageId=321848&ImageSize=Medium&Key=a1df379f70df32054a4e4813d0fd8310efbba5ef[/IMG]

My phones (I have three connected) are not powered, and most people I know using landlines at home also do not have powered phones.

I do have a DECT set connected for VOIP .... but not to the POTS line.

fritzelly · 04-09-2018 11:28PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

My phones (I have three connected) are not powered, and most people I know using landlines at home also do not have powered phones.

I do have a DECT set connected for VOIP .... but not to the POTS line.

Seriously? Didn't think those phones even existed anymore.

Johnboy1951 · 04-09-2018 11:33PM

fritzelly wrote: »

Seriously? Didn't think those phones even existed anymore.

Lots available like this one

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Desk-Office-Corded-Phone-Call-Center-Telephone-Home-Wall-Mount-Base-Handset-C0G8/222962693414?hash=item33e99cb526:g:KFoAAOSwMo9a6a70

m99T · 04-09-2018 11:35PM

fritzelly wrote: »

Seriously? Didn't think those phones even existed anymore.

Installed 2 last week. Heaps around where I live, more common that DECT.

The Cush · 05-09-2018 12:25AM

Ultimanemo wrote: »

If I ask eir to install a landline for me will that cause them headache, If it will I will

m99T wrote: »

The have to do it too. It's in the USO.

fritzelly wrote: »

Only if it comes in at €7000 euro or less and is the only option

€1,000 if there is Alternative Infrastructure available i.e. acceptable mobile network reception, under the most recent USO

New reasonable access thresholds from mid 2016

I. If a request by an end-user for AFL USO requires expenditure by the USP not exceeding €1,000 for the USP to satisfy that request, it shall be a reasonable request, and the USP shall satisfy that request.

II. If a request by an end-user for AFL USO requires expenditure by the USP that exceeds €1,000 for the USP to satisfy that request, and there is at the time of the request an Alternative Infrastructure in the geographic location of the end-user that can provide equivalent AFL USO (in terms of affordability, quality and standalone PATS) to that of the USP, the USP shall not be required to satisfy that request.

III. The approach at (ii) is subject to an exception: if the designated USP confirms that the Alternative Infrastructure is mobile, but the end-user does not agree that this will not provide an equivalent service to that currently prevailing for AFL USO (including Minimum Indoor Coverage) the designated USP must promptly notify us of this fact, with relevant supporting information. ComReg will then adjudicate on whether the request is reasonable or not.

IV. If a request by an end-user for AFL USO requires expenditure by the USP that exceeds €1,000 but that does not exceed €7,000 for the USP to satisfy and, there is at the time of the request no Alternative Infrastructure in the geographic location of the end-user that can provide equivalent AFL USO to that of the USP (in terms of affordability, quality and standalone PATS), it shall be a reasonable request, and the USP shall satisfy that request. If the expenditure required by the designated USP exceeds €7,000 and the end-user agrees to pay the amount in excess of €7,000, then the USP shall satisfy that request.

Comreg 16/65

The Cush · 05-09-2018 12:58AM

fritzelly wrote: »

EU law stops them taking out existing copper but dont expect to get a copper line where fibre exists.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What law are you referring to please?

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What EU law are you referring to?
Does it actually mention copper or POTS or similar?

This from Comreg back in 2015

Our consent will be required if Eircom is to be allowed to phase out its copper network. Eircom has an obligation in several regulated markets not withdraw access to services and facilities already granted (as well as obligations as part of its current USO designation). In the context of SMP obligations (in particular ComReg documents 08/104 and 10/39) a notice period of five years was proposed in the context of exchanges which had been unbundled. We note that there are likely to be few, if any, unbundled exchanges in the NBP intervention area and accordingly, many of the considerations set out this document may need to be revisited in an NBP.

ComReg has not up to now mandated a specific timeframe for the prior notification of any intended withdrawal of access to Eir’s copper access network. However, we signalled that a notice period of 5 years may be reasonable in the context of Eir exchanges which had been unbundled, but acknowledged that there may be circumstances within which a shorter timeframe may be appropriate. ComReg has not previously provided guidance regarding withdrawal of facilities in respect of exchange areas where Other Authorised Operators (OAOs) have not unbundled and/or where OAOs are unlikely to do so.

Comreg's Access at a Fixed Location (AFL) USO was renewed for a further 5 years back in 2016

Eircom currently provides AFL USO using four different technologies: copper path, shared copper path, Rurtel and Fixed Cellular Service (“FCS”). FCS is the only technology used by Eircom to provide AFL which is not capable of FIA, at a minimum speed of 28.8kb/s.

A Comreg consultation on the withdrawal of Copper based Regulated Services was part of their 2017/18 workplan but didn't happen, it hasn't been included in their most recent 2018/19 workplan, likely waiting for the NBP to be progressed.

KOR101 · 05-09-2018 09:39AM

From Eir's Annual report.

For the year ended 30 June 2018, payments for capital expenditure (cash) were €321 million, an increase of €6 million compared to cash capital expenditure of €315 million for the year ended 30 June 2017. The capital expenditure payments show the continued commitment by the group to invest in key projects in order to facilitate the transformation of the business.

This puts yesterdays announcement of €1billion over 5 years in perspective. It makes sense too that the rural plan has been slowed if things are that tight. You would have thought that Eir is anxious to start the Urban competition as well.

KOR101 · 05-09-2018 09:41AM

Ms Lennon said she is confident that Enet, the sole company still involved in the proposed Government contract, will start work on the much delayed National Broadband Plan (NBP).

She said she is confident the contract will get under way, even though completing it for the last few remote homes may require some sort of wireless facility.

The Government set itself “a very ambitious target” to bring broadband fibre to every home and business in the country, she said, while other countries had contracted to cover 95% to 97% of their populations.

“We pulled out back in January because we did not have a commercial case and the complexity [involved] because we own many of the polls and ducts,” she said.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/eir-set-for-1bn-boost-866790.html

Johnboy1951 · 05-09-2018 10:29AM

The Cush wrote: »

This from Comreg back in 2015

Comreg's Access at a Fixed Location (AFL) USO was renewed for a further 5 years back in 2016

A Comreg consultation on the withdrawal of Copper based Regulated Services was part of their 2017/18 workplan but didn't happen, it hasn't been included in their most recent 2018/19 workplan, likely waiting for the NBP to be progressed.

So no direct EU Law, just the Comreg regulation of the USO is applicable?

The Cush · 05-09-2018 03:40PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So no direct EU Law, just the Comreg regulation of the USO is applicable?

No EU regulation that I know of regarding copper lines. Only that Eir is considered to have Significant Market Power in a number of telecoms markets here under EU regulations and so is subject to ex-ante regulation for its regulated products.

KOR101 · 06-09-2018 11:35AM

Another sign of too much debt.

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/eirs-billionaire-owner-refinances-personal-holdings-37286889.html

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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