Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

ohnonotgmail · 03-09-2018 03:29PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Let them
Where its normal.
E.g. Saudi. Yemen. Etc.

Well there is your problem. You see anybody that doesnt act like you as abnormal.

Dannyriver · 03-09-2018 03:32PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I think the niqab is a crock of sh*t, and it's not actually representative of Islam as a whole. It's a Saudi garment that is indicative of fundamentalist Salafist Islam, something which is actually deeply hostile to ancient Muslim traditions across the world. Look at traditional clothing in places from India to Kurdistan, the idea of a woman swarthed head to toe is nowhere to be seen. And while most women choose to wear it, it's still a garment designed to limit women. Many women in Ireland chose to obey their husbands and believe their only job was to pump out good Catholic children - it doesn't mean that was progressive for women's place in society as a whole.

That having been said, banning it isn't going to achieve anything. In France they banned an Islamic swimsuit and we're treated to the farcical scene of cops arresting grannies for *not* baring flesh at the beach. Proscribing a woman's clothes and banning her from wearing stuff isn't going to stop the spread of radical Islam and nor is it going to liberate anyone. It's just going to foster a "them and us" mentality and push people further into the radical camp.

At the end of the day, as negative as it is, a woman walking down the road in a veil isn't going to do you any harm.

Excellent post well done.

kikidelvin · 03-09-2018 03:33PM

Who makes all these hijabs and burqas ?.They could be made here in Ireland.Create some jobs.

Odhinn · 03-09-2018 03:37PM

kikidelvin wrote: »

Who makes all these hijabs and burqas ?.They could be made here in Ireland.Create some jobs.

Aye. I've been working on a project - a halal pub - for some time. "An Irish Solution to An Irish problem" is our working title.

Dannyriver · 03-09-2018 03:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh, but that's the thing. This isn't about accepting others. That happens all the time in western culture. This is about accepting their culture has equal (and in some ways, a superior claim for acceptance) to/than our own culture. All the while, not expecting them to accept our own culture while they're here.

This is the main point. We wouldn't be having these problems if Muslims could accept western culture and live as per western practices. If they did, then they would be the same as the millions of Asians who live in western countries and we never hear a peep about them being difficult. They're accepted. Their religious or cultural practices are being followed, but there is no expectation that everyone else has to conform to them.... instead, typically, they integrate to a degree and keep their habits personal.

So, yes, we are being idiots. To allow another culture to grow in our countries that has never even suggested that it would tolerate western habits.... It's idiotic that we are simply assuming that they will because that's generally what Modern Europeans do in other countries outside of Europe.

Who is insisting that we should conform to their cultural practices I don t get that bit?

Malayalam · 03-09-2018 03:44PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Aye. I've been working on a project - a halal pub - for some time. "An Irish Solution to An Irish problem" is our working title.

The Hale Ale?

03-09-2018 03:51PM

fxotoole wrote: »

“Those who trade freedom for security will have neither” - Benjamin Franklin

Oh, it's a great quote, however as with most quotes from "founding" politicians, their beliefs didn't hold much water with those who came after them. Benjamin Franklin would be foaming at the mouth at what the US had done within a hundred years of the creation of the state, and more so, since.

suicide_circus wrote: »

good quote. the difference between America and Western Europe in this context is that The US still has a modicum of self esteem and a belief in the value of its way of life.

The US is a vastly different culture in spite of the common trend here on boards to make comparisons. But even then, I'd point out that the massive inequalities and hypocrisy throughout large parts of American society, put paid to the idea of "a modicum of self esteem". The growth of Identity politics in US educational institutions also destroys any real notion of retaining self-esteem, along with the corruption of US politics.

As for a belief in its' "way of life". What is that way of life? For whom? Is it available to all, or is there a price tag involved?

The fact is that the US makes good propaganda but rarely manages to step up to their own claims in practical terms over an extended period of time.

03-09-2018 04:01PM

dennispenn wrote: »

Islam. The whole lot of it is incompatible with the western world.

The problem isn't with Islam. Islamic followers have lived in Europe for centuries without causing problems.

The problem is the reality that We are not talking about Islam coexisting within Europe, with Western culture remaining the primary culture. The changes in France and Spain with regards to communities being taken over by Islamic habits/behaviors have destroyed that idea (although it seems plenty of people want to pretend its not happening).

The issue is with those Muslims who believe, first that their culture is superior to Western culture (within the boundaries of Europe), and second, the belief that they are entitled to install/promote Islamic traditional behavior within Europe. That's the main problem here.

If we can remove the beliefs contained with the above paragraph, then Islam will be perfectly capable to being compatible with the western world. As a subculture. A sub religion. With no real power/influence.

Roger Hassenforder · 03-09-2018 04:16PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well there is your problem. You see anybody that doesnt act like you as abnormal.

We'll played.
*rolls eyes

Normal = "the norm"

If you regard Saudi and Yemen as normal, we've a serious problem on our hands.

ohnonotgmail · 03-09-2018 04:17PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

We'll played.
*rolls eyes

Normal = "the norm"

If you regard Saudi and Yemen as normal, we've a serious problem on our hands.

we're not talking about saudi or yemen. we are talking about an article of clothing. An article of clothing you consider abnormal because it is associated with islam.

fxotoole · 03-09-2018 04:22PM

dennispenn wrote: »

Islam. The whole lot of it is incompatible with the western world.

Says a lot about the kind of mindset we’re dealing with here folks. No sense of nuance or higher level thinking.

Roger Hassenforder · 03-09-2018 04:29PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we're not talking about saudi or yemen. we are talking about an article of clothing. An article of clothing you consider abnormal because it is associated with islam.

That you see it as an article of clothing says it all really.

And where did I say it's "abnormal".

And if it's associated with Islam, why don't all Muslim women wear it? That they dont suggests its not mandatory, so the wearing of it suggests something else... wonder what that coukd be...

I've an issue with anything that covers a face, and limits communication, and a burka being a manifestation of how a backward, regressive, mysoginistic ideology, rejects a basic and fundamental "facet" of how we in the West communicate among other reasons, yup, I've an issue that.

Hence, if you wish to wear one, wear one where its normal. E.g. Yemen or Saudi.

03-09-2018 04:30PM

fxotoole wrote: »

Says a lot about the kind of mindset we’re dealing with here folks. No sense of nuance or higher level thinking.

TBF they're doing quite well... they've got western nations putting humanitarian funding into quite a few M.Eastern nations, they're getting financial support and other benefits in Europe when they arrive, and official authorities are tiptoeing around them afraid to deal with them.... They've managed to get Europeans fighting each other than actually dealing with the problems on hand.

No Nuance or higher level thinking? Lolz.

dennispenn · 03-09-2018 04:44PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The problem isn't with Islam. Islamic followers have lived in Europe for centuries without causing problems.

The problem is the reality that We are not talking about Islam coexisting within Europe, with Western culture remaining the primary culture. The changes in France and Spain with regards to communities being taken over by Islamic habits/behaviors have destroyed that idea (although it seems plenty of people want to pretend its not happening).

The issue is with those Muslims who believe, first that their culture is superior to Western culture (within the boundaries of Europe), and second, the belief that they are entitled to install/promote Islamic traditional behavior within Europe. That's the main problem here.

If we can remove the beliefs contained with the above paragraph, then Islam will be perfectly capable to being compatible with the western world. As a subculture. A sub religion. With no real power/influence.

There's a Town in the UK,savile in Yorkshire. The population is something around 4,000 or a little over it according to the 2011 census. Out of that census only 48 people identified as White British
The trend is replicated in a lot of other cities where in 10 years in some cases like Luton,white British has dropped by 20℅. Small Heath in Birmingham,another area where the Muslim immigrants,desite living there for decades do not speak English.

You cannot change the way of thinking of the Muslim immigrant when They hole themselves up in ghettos where they have no need to learn native ways and traditions. It's never gonna happen. And nowhere in the world have Muslims spread to and not outbred the natives,its what they do,while the modern day white woman concerns herself about love island,casual sex,selfies and her career.

dennispenn · 03-09-2018 04:51PM

fxotoole wrote: »

Says a lot about the kind of mindset we’re dealing with here folks. No sense of nuance or higher level thinking.

Great argument there Chief. I think you might just have converted me there.

One eyed Jack · 03-09-2018 04:52PM

dennispenn wrote: »

There's a Town in the UK,savile in Yorkshire. The population is something around 4,000 or a little over it according to the 2011 census. Out of that census only 48 people identified as White British
The trend is replicated in a lot of other cities where in 10 years in some cases like Luton,white British has dropped by 20℅. Small Heath in Birmingham,another area where the Muslim immigrants,desite living there for decades do not speak English.

You cannot change the way of thinking of the Muslim immigrant when They hole themselves up in ghettos where they have no need to learn native ways and traditions. It's never gonna happen. And nowhere in the world have Muslims spread to and not outbred the natives,its what they do,while the modern day white woman concerns herself about love island,casual sex,selfies and her career.

That was one hell of a curve ball, especially after lamenting the idea that Muslims have no need to learn “native ways and traditions” :pac:

03-09-2018 05:01PM

dennispenn wrote: »

There's a Town in the UK,savile in Yorkshire. The population is something around 4,000 or a little over it according to the 2011 census. Out of that census only 48 people identified as White British
The trend is replicated in a lot of other cities where in 10 years in some cases like Luton,white British has dropped by 20℅. Small Heath in Birmingham,another area where the Muslim immigrants,desite living there for decades do not speak English.

The idea of a "white" Britain died in the 80s except for the far right wingers. Britain hasn't been a white nation for decades. The issue is not with ethnicity since in most cases they have learned the native language, have been educated under the British system, and are integrated to certain degrees. You can can find those who have resisted integration, and they're just icing on top of the failure that is multiculturalism.

Still, the issues of failed multiculturalism are far more easily solved since, for the most part, religion is not the cause of those divisions.

You cannot change the way of thinking of the Muslim immigrant when They hole themselves up in ghettos where they have no need to learn native ways and traditions. It's never gonna happen.

It's not going to happen because people believe it won't happen. They resist the idea that we can enforce limitations on immigrants regarding their presence within our borders (we already have limitations in place... we just need more effective ones). And we can. That we haven't so far is not a definitive reason to prevent it for the future.

Europe (and it's members) is changing. Western society has changed dramatically in the last two decades, and is likely to change even more within the next decade. The idea that restrictions can't be placed on immigrants or even on Muslims, is denying the simple fact that we are not held in stasis. Attitudes change. Perceptions change. The increase in marches/riots is a good example of that.

And nowhere in the world have Muslims spread to and not outbred the natives,its what they do,while the modern day white woman concerns herself about love island,casual sex,selfies and her career.

TBF.... you have nothing to base this part on, since Europe is the first real case of Islamic immigration with these kind of numbers, and nowhere has been taken over by Islamic population growth. Not yet anyway. The last part about white women is pure gibberish.

Odhinn · 03-09-2018 05:09PM

dennispenn wrote: »

There's a Town in the UK,savile in Yorkshire. The population is something around 4,000 or a little over it according to the 2011 census. Out of that census only 48 people identified as White British
The trend is replicated in a lot of other cities where in 10 years in some cases like Luton,white British has dropped by 20℅. Small Heath in Birmingham,another area where the Muslim immigrants,desite living there for decades do not speak English.

You cannot change the way of thinking of the Muslim immigrant when They hole themselves up in ghettos where they have no need to learn native ways and traditions. It's never gonna happen. And nowhere in the world have Muslims spread to and not outbred the natives,its what they do,while the modern day white woman concerns herself about love island,casual sex,selfies and her career.

So you can't be black/asian British?

dennispenn · 03-09-2018 05:25PM

Odhinn wrote: »

So you can't be black/asian British?

I've no idea.

What is an Asian British?

no such thing is there?:D

Dude,where are you from?

I'm actually Asian British mate.

Oh great, how's Delhi these time's, I hear the tea is the best there.

No idea bro,I've never Left Bradford.

Odhinn · 03-09-2018 05:42PM

dennispenn wrote: »

I've no idea.

What is an Asian British? no such thing is there?:D

Hilarious.

Here -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Asian

In your post you stated

There's a Town in the UK,savile in Yorkshire. The population is something around 4,000 or a little over it according to the 2011 census. Out of that census only 48 people identified as White British
The trend is replicated in a lot of other cities where in 10 years in some cases like Luton,white British has dropped by 20℅. Small Heath in Birmingham,another area where the Muslim immigrants,desite living there for decades do not speak English.

The clear insinuation is that "white British" is the only category that is the "correct" one. Why?

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-09-2018 05:42PM

dennispenn wrote: »

I've no idea.

What is an Asian British? no such thing is there?:D

Dude,where are you from?

I'm actually Asian British mate.

Oh great, how's Delhi these time's, I hear the tea is the best there.

No idea bro,I've never Left Bradford.

There are "African Americans" who have never left their state in the US, never mind been to Africa.

Dannyriver · 03-09-2018 06:28PM

dennispenn wrote: »

I've no idea.

What is an Asian British? no such thing is there?:D

Dude,where are you from?

I'm actually Asian British mate.

Oh great, how's Delhi these time's, I hear the tea is the best there.

No idea bro,I've never Left Bradford.

You ve seriously diminished your worth in this debate with that post, it's really bad in fairness.

Dannyriver · 03-09-2018 06:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The idea of a "white" Britain died in the 80s except for the far right wingers. Britain hasn't been a white nation for decades. The issue is not with ethnicity since in most cases they have learned the native language, have been educated under the British system, and are integrated to certain degrees. You can can find those who have resisted integration, and they're just icing on top of the failure that is multiculturalism.

Still, the issues of failed multiculturalism are far more easily solved since, for the most part, religion is not the cause of those divisions.

It's not going to happen because people believe it won't happen. They resist the idea that we can enforce limitations on immigrants regarding their presence within our borders (we already have limitations in place... we just need more effective ones). And we can. That we haven't so far is not a definitive reason to prevent it for the future.

Europe (and it's members) is changing. Western society has changed dramatically in the last two decades, and is likely to change even more within the next decade. The idea that restrictions can't be placed on immigrants or even on Muslims, is denying the simple fact that we are not held in stasis. Attitudes change. Perceptions change. The increase in marches/riots is a good example of that.

TBF.... you have nothing to base this part on, since Europe is the first real case of Islamic immigration with these kind of numbers, and nowhere has been taken over by Islamic population growth. Not yet anyway. The last part about white women is pure gibberish.

Every imperialist nation be it France , Spain, UK, US will always have members of the colonised countries living with them, it's part of the deal always has been.

yrreg0850 · 03-09-2018 07:18PM

Skinhead Kane wrote: »

Greetings guys and girls,

I have been thinking about this topic for quite some time now and have yet to make a real judgement on what truly would be a correct answer. If were to go to a country populated by the Muslim community we would be asked to cover up and follow their religious procedure.

Therefore in Britain and Ireland I believe we are within our rights to ban something that isolates woman and was made by men to oppress them. If I were to show my hair/head in their countries, I would be seen as obscene.

Recently came back from a trip and had some female friends been told by locals to cover their arms and legs as well as hair before entering out of the city centre areas. It was a very aggressive approach to and almost demanded 'or we leave the country' type of attitude. Now not using this as a reason or motive to make this topic, but it has however got me thinking.

If I could vote on it, I would ban burqas and possibly hijab.

What's your take on this guys?

Regards,

Sk

I have no problem with muslm women covering their hair or wearing long black clothing.

I do object to they being able to cover their faces totally with only their eyes visable. While it may be the culture in some countries , it is not here.
If an Irish female entered a bank like that she would be promptly arrested.

In some muslim countries if you display a christian symbol you can be imprisoned.

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-09-2018 07:36PM

yrreg0850 wrote: »

I have no problem with muslm women covering their hair or wearing long black clothing.

I do object to they being able to cover their faces totally with only their eyes visable. While it may be the culture in some countries , it is not here.
If an Irish female entered a bank like that she would be promptly arrested.

In some muslim countries if you display a christian symbol you can be imprisoned.

Yeah, you're going to have to post evidence for this wild claim.

Danzy · 03-09-2018 07:41PM

Dannyriver wrote: »

Every imperialist nation be it France , Spain, UK, US will always have members of the colonised countries living with them, it's part of the deal always has been.

The Middle East and North Africa are the home of Imperialism. It was a very old story there when Rome was vying for control of Italy with the Etruscans.

Nearly as old would be around the far east, there Imperialism is so deep seated a part of culture that a thousand years of effort would not change it.

The European Imperial project while on a large scale was very short lived historically.

Imperialism will still be rooted in the Middle East and Far East Asia when Europe is long gone.

Dannyriver · 03-09-2018 08:02PM

Danzy wrote: »

The Middle East and North Africa are the home of Imperialism. It was a very old story there when Rome was vying for control of Italy with the Etruscans.

Nearly as old would be around the far east, there Imperialism is so deep seated a part of culture that a thousand years of effort would not change it.

The European Imperial project while on a large scale was very short lived historically.

Imperialism will still be rooted in the Middle East and Far East Asia when Europe is long gone.

Fine ..but my point still stands.

Dravokivich · 03-09-2018 08:20PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Surely it is for the person wearing it to decide that?

The hijab is something a woman can decide on. The Burka is not.

dennispenn · 03-09-2018 08:44PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Hilarious.

Here -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Asian

In your post you stated

The clear insinuation is that "white British" is the only category that is the "correct" one. Why?

No insinuating there. Just clear evidence that the white man is being replaced in his own country.

Can you imagine this happening in Japan? Or Israel? Nah,neither can I.

And despite what some liberal idiot put into Wikipedia, there is no such race as Asian British or Irish British. But you folk will keep insisting creating these stupid labels.

dennispenn · 03-09-2018 08:48PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

There are "African Americans" who have never left their state in the US, never mind been to Africa.

Then why are you calling them African Americans like you cannot see a black American for exactly that, black American?

Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

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